posted
A weapon of unimaginable power sits within reach of the Romulan Star Empire. Locating and either securing or destroying that weapon is the only choice you can make, and the consequences of acting are far outweighed by the consequences of not acting. Duty to Starfleet and the Federation didn't permit the luxury of a decision - Varley made the only choice he could.
posted
That's crap. Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians. Varley had no evidence that anything of value was on Iconia at all. All he had was a randon pices of tech that did nothing and they could'nt even figure out what it was! He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all: If the Warbird HAD destroyed the Yamato the Romulans could have easily claimed self defense- A Galaxy class starship violates the Zone, makes a beeline toward the Romulan homeworld and gives them NO eplanation as to why? Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command. Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war. If the Romulans DID destroy Yamato and start a war, starfleet command would have been clueless as to why Varley was in the zone at all! It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians.
How do YOU know that? Do you have access to off-screen Starfleet Intelligence files? Somehow, I doubt it.
Varley's logic:
a. I found an artifact of Iconian origin.
b. If an artifact is here, then it's possible that there are artifacts scattered throughout the Alpha Quadrant. This is worth following up.
c. I have followed up. Iconia is in the Neutral Zone. Link with B -> the Romulans have the same ability to locate Iconia as I do.
d. Iconian technology must be kept out of Romulan hands at all costs.
quote:Varley had no evidence that anything of value was on Iconia at all. All he had was a randon pices of tech that did nothing and they could'nt even figure out what it was!
Let me ask you something. If you were commander of a Federation starship and learned that Iconia was within reach of a hostile, aggressive power with an eye on Federation territory, could you say to yourself "Well, there might not be anything on that planet, so I'm going to keep going on my survey mission."
quote:He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all:
I would say he got lucky that his mission was accomplished: Iconia was removed as a threat.
quote:If the Warbird HAD destroyed the Yamato the Romulans could have easily claimed self defense- A Galaxy class starship violates the Zone, makes a beeline toward the Romulan homeworld and gives them NO eplanation as to why?
So what? Of the possible outcomes to Varley's mission, the destruction of the Yamato is insignificant. If not for the mission, the entire Federation could've been brought down.
quote:Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
Considering that Varley's evidence was DEAD ON, I wouldn't call it flimsy. And in case you've consistently missed the point, a war fought without the benefit of Iconian technology on the side of the Romulans would be preferable to the Romulans finding Iconia.
quote:Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command.
And SAVED THE FEDERATION in the process! If all it cost him was his career, he really would've beaten fate.
quote:Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war.
You don't know this.
quote:If the Romulans DID destroy Yamato and start a war, starfleet command would have been clueless as to why Varley was in the zone at all!
No. If the Romulans had destroyed the Yamato, the Federation would have pointed out "Look, six months earlier you sent a Warbird INTO FEDERATION SPACE to the locations where a bunch of our outposts got blown up. We didn't go to war with you for crossing the Zone AND ILLEGALLY ENTERING FEDERATION SPACE and possible participating in those attacks, so you have no reason to moan about a Galaxy-Class ship that stayed IN the Zone and never entered Romulan space. Paint a GCS silhouette on your ship's hull, shut the fuck up, and call it a day."
quote:It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors.
How do you figure? One ship entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war? What does that make crossing completely through the Zone and into the other's territory? A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
quote:A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
Let us also not forget that the Romulans declared war in "Balance of Terror", and the Enterprise -no bloody A-B-C-orrr-D- declared war in "The Enterprise Incident".
Were Starfleet to review Varley's actions at a Board of Inquiry (can't give a dead man a court-martial!) they would probably ask themselves two questions (the same that have been bandied about this thread quite often);
1. Did Varley's violating the Neutral Zone threaten Federation security more, or would it be more threatened by the Iconian technology?
It can go both ways. If the technology on Iconia simply left there, it's entirely possible that eventually the Romulans might discover it giving them an extreme technological advantage if they could use it. On the other hand, they might never discover it, but is it worth the risk to let sleeping dogs lie when that dog could destroy the Federation? I'm willing to say no, and that the possibility of war with the Romulans is better than giving them access to Iconia.
2. Was the loss of the Yamato due to negligence on the part of the commanding officer?
This one is a little more undefined, as if Varley had never gone to Iconia his ship would never have been infected. In fact the only reason the Enterprise survived was because Data's infection by the virus gave them the cure. We shouldn't forget that Enterprise was also a ticking time-bomb until that happened. There are too many unknowns out in the depths of space (i.e. should Commodore Decker be accused of negligence of the loss of the Constellation?).
However, he was negligent in that he did not take the opportunity to evacuate non-essential personnel from his ship when he had the chance. Even if Yamato's transporters were off-line, Enterprise's weren't. Getting as many people off a ship that's about to tear itself apart should be a primary concern for the commanding officer.
Simply put, was Varley negligent in the loss of Yamato? I don't think so, in that he never could have forseen the circumstances which led up to her eventual loss (much like Decker could never have expected to run into the Doomsday Machine). Was he negligent of the deaths of the 1000+ people aboard? Absolutely. He had the chance to send as many as he could to safety, and he didn't. YMMV.
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quote:Starfleet had zero contact with the Romulans for decades and no idea what (if any!) knowledge they had of the Iconians.
How do YOU know that? Do you have access to off-screen Starfleet Intelligence files? Somehow, I doubt it. .
I say that because Picard and riker said they knew nothing about the Romulan's or their abilities ("The Neutral Zone") just a few weeks (or months) earlier. Nobody ever said they knew anything about the Romulans looking for Iconia or keeping tabs on Varley's investigations. Iconia was there for centuries without the Romulans stumbeling onto it so what was Varley's rush? He understood there was a POTENTIAL threat but had NO evidence that there was anything there at all.
quote: Varley's logic:
a. I found an artifact of Iconian origin.
b. If an artifact is here, then it's possible that there are artifacts scattered throughout the Alpha Quadrant. This is worth following up.
c. I have followed up. Iconia is in the Neutral Zone. Link with B -> the Romulans have the same ability to locate Iconia as I do.
d. Iconian technology must be kept out of Romulan hands at all costs.
Agreed on all counts but there was no rush to violate treaty or any excuse not to notify command: you're assuming the Romulans were close to discovering Iconia but if they had'nt done so after a century of the Zone being there, I doubt they'd just get lucky. Varley tipped his hand to them that something of intrest was there by violating the zone.
quote:Let me ask you something. If you were commander of a Federation starship and learned that Iconia was within reach of a hostile, aggressive power with an eye on Federation territory, could you say to yourself "Well, there might not be anything on that planet, so I'm going to keep going on my survey mission."
Well for starters I'd have filed a report (scrambled to prevent eavesdropping, of course) to starfleet command. That would have taken what, ten minutes? I think he knew starfleet would not risk a war on such circumstantial evidence and so he went in with no backup. Picard would not have made that mistake.
quote:He got (historically) lucky that there was anything left there at all: I would say he got lucky that his mission was accomplished: Iconia was removed as a threat.
BY alerting the Romulans to the Iconian tech at all he may have ultimately given it to the Romulans- they'll be looking for it now, after all.
quote:Who would have said Varley's flimsy "evidence" was reason to risk billions of lives in a war with the Romulans?
quote:Considering that Varley's evidence was DEAD ON, I wouldn't call it flimsy. And in case you've consistently missed the point, a war fought without the benefit of Iconian technology on the side of the Romulans would be preferable to the Romulans finding Iconia.
His evidence was NOT "dead on": he had nothing but a hunch that turned out to be right on this one occasion: no diffrent than Ben Maxwell's hunch the Cardassians were building up weapons again. While correct, Starfleet does not take such provicative actions without clearance from Command.
quote:Even if he'd managed to evac his crew and somehow survive his ship's destruction he'd probably have been courtmartialed and lost his command.
And SAVED THE FEDERATION in the process! If all it cost him was his career, he really would've beaten fate.
Saved the Federation? How? He didint destroy the Iconian Tech: Jean Luc did that and could have done that without the Yamato's loss if only Varley had contacted him before his ship was crippled.
quote:Again, Varley had the leisure of time on his side to contact Starfleet (or a LEAST his pal Jean Juc!) for advice and backup prior to risking a war. You don't know this.
Basic logic says otherwise. Iconia was not in danger of discovery by the Romulans, based on onscreen dialogue, until they reacted to Yamato's entering the zone and obviously looking for something.
quote:It would have become an unprovoked war by the federation and cost any rep the Federation had with it's neighbors. How do you figure? One ship entering the Neutral Zone is an act of war? What does that make crossing completely through the Zone and into the other's territory? A declaration of war? Let's see - that means the Romulans declared war in "The Neutral Zone", "The Defector" and "The Enemy."
The diffrence is that the Romulans ALWAYS provoked a response to see what (if anything) their opponent will do. (according to Data in "Data's Day") whereas the Federation always forgives minor incursions into their territory with no reprecussions. Even with the Dominion flooding into the Alpha quadrant, the Federation did nothing for weeks.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
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quote:I say that because Picard and riker said they knew nothing about the Romulan's or their abilities ("The Neutral Zone") just a few weeks (or months) earlier. Nobody ever said they knew anything about the Romulans looking for Iconia or keeping tabs on Varley's investigations. Iconia was there for centuries without the Romulans stumbeling onto it so what was Varley's rush? He understood there was a POTENTIAL threat but had NO evidence that there was anything there at all.
And it was there for centuries before the Federation found out about it. And who is to say that the Romulans wouldn't find it the next week? The Romulans are a cultured people, it's not as head-scratching for them to be doing archeological digs on worlds within their control as it would be for Klingons to do the same. There's an old theory about myths that I picked up in, I think, "Relics" (the book turned into a bad movie) ... it has to do with plotting the reporting sightings of the myth, and then plotting a center point. The idea is that if you're looking for a vampire or monster or what have you, that it will most likely be located in the center of the sightings. Couldn't the same be true of worlds with Iconian artifacts? That they radiate away from the homeworld, and therefore that planets with Romulan space could hold the same clues that revealed to Varley the planet's location? I mean, with the gateways, this doesn't even have to apply, it just adds a bit more urgency considering Iconia was about halfway between the two powers.
You're right, he had no evidence. But that potential threat was all he needed to act.
quote:Agreed on all counts but there was no rush to violate treaty or any excuse not to notify command: you're assuming the Romulans were close to discovering Iconia but if they had'nt done so after a century of the Zone being there, I doubt they'd just get lucky. Varley tipped his hand to them that something of intrest was there by violating the zone.
I disagree. Regardless of whether or not the Romulans were aware of or were close to being aware of the location of Iconia, once you figure out "Hey, there's a weapon in easy reach of the Romulans which could enable them to destroy the Federation", it's not exactly time to sit around for a month while the Federation Council mediates on how to proceed. You've been granted the authority to command a starship by Starfleet, which means very little direct oversight from Command, and a great deal of freedom to proceed on your own authority. Varley decided that the risk was great enough to proceed immediately, and I agree.
quote:Well for starters I'd have filed a report (scrambled to prevent eavesdropping, of course) to starfleet command. That would have taken what, ten minutes?
Yeah, but we know that even in the 24th Century, communications with starships on the Neutral Zone with Command isn't instintaneous. Varley could've sent out a subspace message, or perhaps a probe to a nearby starbase, "This is Varley. Have possibly located Iconia in Neutral Zone. Proceeding to verify and if true, destroy any advanced technology. I assume full responsibility for entering the Neutral Zone. Best, - Donald."
Then we have to assume that the message is recieved by Starfleet, and relayed back to Picard -- "Hey, listen, Donald thinks he found Iconia and maybe Santa Clause, keep an eye out for him, eh?" -- before Varley contacts Picard "Hey, Jean-Luc, remember those Orion slave girls back in our Academy Days? Hahahah. Oh, reason I called - I'm in the Neutral Zone, and, er, could use your help. Thanks dude!"
We have no evidence that Varley didn't relay his intentions to Starfleet Command, all we know is that Picard was never informed of this. And really, if Varley had chatted with the mission about Admiral Neyechev, do you really think Starfleet Command would've blabbed to all its starships and starbases on the Zone, "Hey, the Yamato went into the Neutral Zone, wave hi." With such a delicate mission, it's not unlikely that Command might've kept a wrap on it - what would the Romulans' reaction had been if Federation starships suddenly started mobilizing (in response to a feared retaliation of the Yamato's entry into the NZ), coupled with seeing a Galaxy-Class starship flying around the Zone.
quote:I think he knew starfleet would not risk a war on such circumstantial evidence and so he went in with no backup. Picard would not have made that mistake.
And as we've seen, Starship Captain often take matters into their own hands for what they perceive to be the greater good. The best example is probably Sisko, who in "The Search pt. II" believed that the Federation was about to hand the Dominion a foothold in the Alpha Quadrant, and if it had been reality, he would have given his life to close the wormhole and save the Federation. Varley's actions were little different (except he wasn't having his mind fooled by a Dominion mind-fooling machine).
As for Picard not "making that mistake" - how many times has Picard ignored his own orders? Let's see, in "First Contact" he breaks off the Neutral Zone patrol, and in "Insurrection" he, well, leads an insurrection against the Federation (in a manner of speaking). You're right - Picard wouldn't have made that mistake, because it wasn't a mistake. It was the correct course of action.
quote:His evidence was NOT "dead on": he had nothing but a hunch that turned out to be right on this one occasion: no diffrent than Ben Maxwell's hunch the Cardassians were building up weapons again. While correct, Starfleet does not take such provicative actions without clearance from Command.
Hold on here. Maxwell wasn't going around beaming down intelligence teams and taking photos of Cardassian instillations proving they were re-arming: he was attacking and destroying Cardassian ships for no real gain except to provoke a war for revenge against those who killed his family. Varley wasn't motivated by revenge, he was motivated by concern for the citizens of the Federation that he had taken an oath to defend.
quote:Saved the Federation? How? He didint destroy the Iconian Tech: Jean Luc did that and could have done that without the Yamato's loss if only Varley had contacted him before his ship was crippled.
Oh please. Is Jean-Luc in the habit of chit-chatting with his buddy on the Desoto before he decided to abandon whatever mission the Enterprise is on before pursuing whatever it is he wants to pursue? Of course not. Is Varley supposed to have an epiphany: "Gosh, I might be scanned by an Iconian probe and have my ship fall apart from under me, should contact Jean-Luc before proceeding."
And kindly remember that if not for Varley pursuing this matter, the tech wouldn't have been destroyed at all. Picard finished what Varley started, and if Varley hadn't started it, the Romulans may well have defeated the Federation.
quote:Basic logic says otherwise. Iconia was not in danger of discovery by the Romulans, based on onscreen dialogue, until they reacted to Yamato's entering the zone and obviously looking for something.
And up until Varley figured out where Iconia was, the same held true for the Federation. But the second one of 'em figures out where the planet is, how long could it be until the other side figures it out? Probably not too long. Besides, what are the Romulans going to do in response to a ship entering the Zone (and I might add, let's not forget THEY had a ship prowling around the same area at the same time too ... coincidence? Hmmmm)?
quote:The diffrence is that the Romulans ALWAYS provoked a response to see what (if anything) their opponent will do. (according to Data in "Data's Day") whereas the Federation always forgives minor incursions into their territory with no reprecussions. Even with the Dominion flooding into the Alpha quadrant, the Federation did nothing for weeks.
If a Federation starship entering the Zone was reason for war, then certainly when Picard came storming through with KLINGON ships as back-up, Tomalack would not have stood down so easily. Sure, he might've died, but it would have been a glorious start to a new Romulan campaign against the Federation. Let's face it: the Romulans aren't going to go to war with anyone over a single ship. The Dominion blew up HOW MANY of their ships and crews, and still it took Sisko framing the Dominion for the assassination of a senator before they went to war? It's not something they'd do lightly, more probably, they'd use the Yamato's entry as a way to spawn-off an "incident" and get some good reactions for laughs and jollies.
quote: As for Picard not "making that mistake" - how many times has Picard ignored his own orders? Let's see, in "First Contact" he breaks off the Neutral Zone patrol, and in "Insurrection" he, well, leads an insurrection against the Federation (in a manner of speaking). You're right - Picard wouldn't have made that mistake, because it wasn't a mistake. It was the correct course of action
Okay, Let us just say that picard of First Season TNG would not have acted that way. By First Contact he's either full of himself after countless impossible victories, from Krypton or thinks Q will save him (for what, the THIRD time?!?).
quote: And up until Varley figured out where Iconia was, the same held true for the Federation. But the second one of 'em figures out where the planet is, how long could it be until the other side figures it out? Probably not too long. Besides, what are the Romulans going to do in response to a ship entering the Zone (and I might add, let's not forget THEY had a ship prowling around the same area at the same time too ... coincidence? Hmmmm)?
Or they have cloaked sensor relays in the Zone to warn of intruders: they hate the klingons AND the Federation, so that's what I'd do- and sent the Warbird after the Yamato's detection. God only knows how Varley managed to elude the Warbird's sensors at all, so it's possible they just let him think he'd got away and followed him under cloak. they were taping Yamato's computer feed and were in the system observing when Yamato blew up after all.
You make good arguments as to urgency but Varley could also have misled the Romulans AWAY from Iconia by replicating that do-dah he had and left it on planets leading AWAY from the Zone. That's kinda what picard and company did in The Pegasus.
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quote: {snip} Varley could also have misled the Romulans AWAY from Iconia by replicating that do-dah he had and left it on planets leading AWAY from the Zone.
But that would have still ignored the primary problem that the Romulans would eventually discover Iconia even if a false trail detoured them for a while. Romulans are well known for their suspicion so they certainly wouldn't leave well enough alone when Iconian technological treasures fell in their lap.
Even if Varley did pursue that course of action it's highly likely that the Romulans would discover the Federation "treachery" (It's a Faaake!) and search every single planet in the Zone until they found the real Iconian tech. And yet still, we have the problem of the Romulans getting their hands on technology that would completely shift the balance of power in their favor. Once again Varley is in the position of maintaining Federation security.
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posted
It would have just bought some time. Varley could also have just launched probes into systems away from the zone set to scan for (insert rare technobabble element here)or just launched one of those Quarentine beacons on the world he got the Iconian tech from. If the Romulans are dumb enough to violate a starfleet quarentine, they'll love the tar monster that killed Yar!
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posted
Er, it's one thing for Starfleet to put a quarantine beacon on a planet in Federation space. But if Starfleet did that in the Zone, the Romulans would say "This is interesting" and investigate. It wouldn't act as a warning - more like a "Come and Look!"
posted
Not in the Zone, just at the planet Varley picked up his little useless gizmo. In case he really thought thr Romulans were putting the pieces together before he violated the Treaty and entered the zone.
Any way we look at it, there would have to be a story or three either explaining Varley's motivations more clearly (as almost every class M planet with ruins could yield aincent precoursor weapons or tech), a story with the Romulans looking for either Iconia in the Zone or doing some sneaky shit there afterward . There's just a LOT of unanswered questions for me, but such is the fate of all good first season TNG stories (I think there were three).
You'd think Starfleet would be keeping tabs on archeogical sites after this and after vulcan telepathic weapon...and that stupid episode with "The Preservers'" genetic recording.
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quote:Not in the Zone, just at the planet Varley picked up his little useless gizmo. In case he really thought thr Romulans were putting the pieces together before he violated the Treaty and entered the zone.
That would keep other Federation captains from locating Iconia, wouldn't do much to stop the Romulans.
quote:Any way we look at it, there would have to be a story or three either explaining Varley's motivations more clearly (as almost every class M planet with ruins could yield aincent precoursor weapons or tech), a story with the Romulans looking for either Iconia in the Zone or doing some sneaky shit there afterward .
Well, not "almost" every - first you've got to find a former Iconian world with remements of their technology. Then you've got to have someone with an interest in archeology to know what has been located, and do other neat tricks (like adjusting for stellar drift) to locate Iconia.
quote:There's just a LOT of unanswered questions for me, but such is the fate of all good first season TNG stories (I think there were three).
Sure. "Conspiracy", "The Neutral Zone" and "Heart of Glory", IMO. "Contagion" was season two.
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posted
for all we know, Varley mightve been tipped off by some defector, informant, sme discovery on a planet he was visiting.. i mean thats how most of the Enterprise's missions go.. look at "The Chase" on the surface, it is difficult to explain Picard's actions but we watched all the good reasons unfold. Varley mightve experienced similar situations leading up to the fateful mission
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Mountain Man
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The mistakes made are actualy common ones among naval officers. Ego is at the root of it. Faced with his ship failing without a logical reason put him into a brain lock. His character gave a window to how things like that go down in the real world and made him memorable.
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