-------------------- "I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)
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quote:Hidden really well? Uh the statue face has three holes pointing into the catacombs you moron!
Well, the Andorians didn't notice anything was behind it until Reed blew it up, now did they?
quote:How can anyone over look such a thing....god your an idiot.
Maybe because they weren't looking for catacombs?
quote:Hidden elsewhere on the planet? Why don't they just hide it under the sea! Becuase the vulcans priests would have no way of keeping an eye on it would they?
The Priests weren't keeping an eye on it. In the shot of it, we saw Vulcans wandering around on it. Its clear it had its own crew, and that the one "priest" who pulled his weapon on Archer wasn't really there to study Kohlinar.
quote:They were searching for an array that was hidden in the temple, its the same thing and requires the same method of search as if they were originally searching for an secret catacomb!
That statement makes no sense.
You make no sense.
Therefore, you are the statement.
They'd been over the Temple 3 times. They hadn't found the relay. I don't see why they kept coming to the Temple, and didn't expand their search to other locations on the planet. Might've made more sense.
Stop resorting to personal attacks since just about everything you've said has been mashed into the ground like an egg dropped from the top of the Empire State Building.
And you're still not using your "enter" or "shift" keys enough.
posted
Um, I'd say from the way everything was presented, the Andorians certainly didn't know about the Catacombs. I think basically everyone here is in agreement with this.
If they knew about the Catacombs, wouldn't they have spotted that transmitter and destroyed it? Wouldn't they have sealed up the entrence to where the Vulcans were kept so they couldn't escape or reach that transmitter? Wouldn't they have destroyed, damaged, or stolen those sacred relics?
And most of all, wouldn't they have noticed that huge carpet hanging there, and took a look behind it?
-------------------- "God's in his heaven. All's right with the world."
They'd been over the Temple 3 times. They hadn't found the relay. I don't see why they kept coming to the Temple, and didn't expand their search to other locations on the planet. Might've made more sense.
Stop resorting to personal attacks since just about everything you've said has been mashed into the ground like an egg dropped from the top of the Empire State Building.
And you're still not using your "enter" or "shift" keys enough.
Personal attacks? Thats an empty statement my good man considering you started it, and placed the plea on top and below yet another whole sale wave of your own contradictory diplays.
Anyway, back to the andorian sensors, which i pointed out from the very start were not very *ahem* advanced. [shockingly, somebody cared to argue against that when all evidence pointed otherwise] Of the three points i made in support of the sensor capabilities[or lack of], 3 are still very valid. Even without sensor tech. a modern anti terrorist team would have most likely came upon the catacombs in one of their "raids". Especially since the vulcans never actualy resisted these raids with force. And considering the catacombs were several long corridors that empty into a crypt and a large storage room, it should not have been easy to hide such a layout in the monasteries floor plan and the space beneath it.
I take back my statement that the "Andorians know about the catacombs", since the above mentioned dialogue can also be interpreted in another fashion and in that fashion do hold more water. But given the three raids by an overly paranoid and stubborn force that insits upon the array being in the monastery and no where else, you can see how i was led to believe that the Andorians must have known about the catacombs.
"Also, why do they not keep it somewhere else on the planet?" Simple, criminal phsyc. 101 states that 80% of the time a person trying to hide something would actualy keep it quite close to themselves or a place where they can have easy access to so as to be able to check upon it. Since the few vulcan monks [responsible for overseeing it] cannot check upon it's security with a scanner before prayer, they have to resort hiding it in their own catacombs. There were people inside the array but those were tech. workers who were hardly responsible for making sure no one approached it from the outside. After all if someone started poking around the entranceway when the facility was hidden elsewhere, what should tech guys do?
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
posted
Jeepers. Enough allready. I think we're all pretty sure the Andorians didn't know about the catacombs or reliquary before Reed blew up the face.
Now here's where we get into my problems with the episode. First off, I'd like to say that I enjoyed this episode very much. It was good to see Weyoun again. (Jeffery Combs Rules!) It was great to see some really good bad guys, and it's always a hoot to see the Captain get worked. The scene with T'pol was pretty funny despite her stiffness.
1) Three holes, right? Three trained security officers with phase pistols. Couldn't they have taken down team blue right quick without destroying any precious Vulcan artifacts? I guess Reed really is gonna be a trigger-happy. 2) Ok, from the first moment we discover than the Andorians are looking for the sensor station I knew that there actually was one there. That didn't bother me so much, as I'll tack it up to my superior intellect (he's kidding, really). 3) What did bother me was that Archer would expose the Vulcan listening post. (3.5) I mean not to mention: 'Time Out'. Like a paranoid Andorian is gonna stop shooting in the middle of a gun-fight because they found a big metal disk. I was kind of hoping, that the Vulcan monk would have shot the Andorians on the threshhold of the listening center (tr�s cool, IMHO), and Captain Archer would have been inadvertently involved in a cover-up. As it ended, there's gonna be a big mess not only between the Andorians and the Vulcans, but also the humans and the Vulcans. There was no reason, Archer had to give the Andorians that evidence, and we know from TOS that whatever friendship Earth establishes with the Andorians is short-lived. All told, I was a little disappointed. But for once it was because I really thought the episode was going somewhere. Little flat, really...
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Well, the Andorians didn't notice anything was behind it until Reed blew it up, now did they?
Exactly, they didn't becuase their sensors are so bad, that and their personal abilities to perform searches. Sure it was three black holes but you don't need a scanner to tell the holes gazed into a hollow corridor. Sure they missed it on their first raids, but the third too? Even when they must insist that the array is somewhere inside the temple?
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: Maybe because they weren't looking for catacombs?
Alright, make the leap here comon, i know you can do it. The Andorians were searching for a array that was hidden in a secret place inside the monastery. The catacombs is a secret place hidden inside the monastery. Get the connection? It doesn't matter if the "secret place" turned out to be a catacomb, the andorians were focusing their search on hidden chambers and therefor should have stumbled upon the catacombs if their sensors weren't so bad and they themselves weren't so inept.
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay: The Priests weren't keeping an eye on it. In the shot of it, we saw Vulcans wandering around on it. Its clear it had its own crew, and that the one "priest" who pulled his weapon on Archer wasn't really there to study Kohlinar.
Yes, some priests were, and did their best to keep visitors away from there. If they hid it in the woods, the priest would have to hike all the way there and come up with some lame excuse why the visitor should not set up camp beside some bush!
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane: I was kind of hoping, that the Vulcan monk would have shot the Andorians on the threshhold of the listening center (tr�s cool, IMHO), and Captain Archer would have been inadvertently involved in a cover-up
Thats very true, it would have made more sense if that vulcan shot and killed those two Andorians who have now seen the array with their own eyes. It would have even more highlighted how devilish the vulcans can be. I would loved to have seen archer's face after the vulcan did that and then made a threat to archer. We will even get some interesting reaction from T'pual, who did show confusion and misgivings toward the affair.
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
posted
Jeff and TheF0rce: Guys, really, can we please cut out the personal insults? Pretty please with suger and a cherry on top? We all feel passionately about Star Trek, its past, its present, and its future, but can we please just drop the mudslugging to a minimum?
BalaamThe relations between the Andorians and humans didn't last long? I don't remember that. Do you remember which episode that was in?
Everyone still on topic: I think that it could be fairly easy for the Andorians to miss the catacombs on three searchs. What if the room where the hostages were kept is the only room with access into the catacombs? Is all of their religious icons really are down there, it would make some sense to have only one entrance to protect the secret. It would also be easy to overlook a seam or plane separation since it wasn't the entire wall that slid aside to open the catacombs -- it was just the fireplace or whatever that thing was.
Here's another reason that Andorians might not have suspected there being an underground network of tunnels. What if they weren't looking for something as massive as the sensor station turned out to be? They were searching personal quarters, so it seems that the sensor platforms they were looking for was about that size (let's say about 10' by 10'). The Andorians probably also didn't know that Vulcan sensor technology was so good that they could build a massive sensor station and plant and operate it from under the surface of the planet. The Andorian and Enterprise sensors couldn't pick up anything from below the surface of the planet; yet, the Vulcans could sneak an active sensor platform. Look at everyone's faces when they all see the sensor platform. Everyone from the terrorist to Archer to T'Pol is shocked by it. The Andorian leader shouldn't have been shocked by it because he knew it was there (on the planet near the monastery in general not the exact location), but he was shocked and I chalk this up to the sheer size and sophistication of it.
Another comment was about no one shooting Archer when he called for a "cease fire." I can find that believable because the gang is sitting in a holy chamber and behind the tapestry is a big metal door. Everything else in the catacombs had been without any sort of power or doors (let alone anything with a metallic framing). When everyone saw the door, they all knew instinctively that something was up. Then, they might have been in a position to stop firing to investigate. This is especially true for the Andorians since this could prove their case.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Anyway, i agree, everyone in the room were too shocked by what they saw to continue doing anything. {except for that vulcan who must have kicked himself in the pants for firing on that tapestry] It really was all his fualt for exposing the array. LOL hehehe
[ November 01, 2001: Message edited by: TheF0rce ]
The F0rce and Malnurtured Snay, calm the hell down! Both of you need to stop antagonizing each other!
It was fairly clear that the Andorians DID NOT KNOW about the catacombs, BECAUSE THEY WERE HIDDEN BEHIND A SECRET DOOR. That was the whole point of having catacombs BEHIND A SECRET DOOR in the plot, so the Andorians WOULD NOT KNOW ABOUT THEM.
quote:Thats very true, it would have made more sense if that vulcan shot and killed those two Andorians who have now seen the array with their own eyes. It would have even more highlighted how devilish the vulcans can be...
Um...you obviously don't have a very good conception of what sort of race the Vulcans are. Or perhaps you were being sarcastic.
quote:The relations between the Andorians and humans didn't last long? I don't remember that. Do you remember which episode that was in?
Well, it was pretty obvious in "Journey to Babel" that none of the four principle races (Humans, Vulcans, Tellarites, and Andorians) got along like best buddies. The relations are still more or less intact, but tensions are high.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
posted
Well, the Andorians were still a bit...antsy.
It seems to me that it might be possible that, uh, Combs' group of Andorians never get along with Vulcans, and become those renegades we heard about in TNG.
-------------------- "Nah. The 9th chevron is for changing the ringtone from "grindy-grindy chonk-chonk" to the theme tune to dallas." -Reverend42
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