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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Community » Other Television Shows » Noooooo!!!!! 22nd Century confirmed for Series V. (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Noooooo!!!!! 22nd Century confirmed for Series V.
Lee
I'm a spy now. Spies are cool.
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Plus, we've actually seen she looks good in a Starfleet jumpsuit. But there is this perception that we'll only watch if she's in her silver bodystocking.

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For me, this is not the case.

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Nim
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crobato, she's NOT IN STARFLEET!!! She hasn't gone through the academy, she hasn't served on a SF-vessel before, she's a refugee with advisory functions, being brought back to earth. I don't even think she'll join Starfleet if she comes home, she doesn't have to.

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lies a haircut and a shave."

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Nim
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Besides, if they'd given her a uniform after "MiaB" they would've been forced to upgrade the rest of the crew to "real" uniforms as well. God forbid if that should've happened!

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein


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crobato
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She already took an active part of the ship's functions, and she is no less Star Fleet than the Maquis who are on board, including Bellana and Chakotay. Even if she is not Star Fleet, that is still no reason to wear a tube sock of a suit.

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 18, 2001).]


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crobato
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Sure, everyone should wear a tight tube sock for a uniform.

What makes you think everyone should upgrade their uniform if 7 gets a proper uniform? She would just wear the same uniform as everyone else. Or something with more dignity if it wasn't a Starfleet uniform. Why, do you see Ichbed wearing a tube sock too? Is it a requirement that any deassimilated Borg drone has to wear a tight tube sock to survive?


[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 18, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 18, 2001).]


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Wes
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With a story as complex as star trek, and in order to pump out a new episode of Star Trek quality (most of the time) every week, it leaves very little time to go over every aspect of the timeline to make sure everything lines up. Sure there are some unforgiveable big-time errors, but everyone fucks up once in awhile. To do a prequel is a very brave step for something as complex as Star Trek, i belive they will be putting a bit more effort into the continuity, but there will always be mistakes.

The key is not to spaz out about every single continuity mistake, I think we should take more of a laid back "take every episode as it comes" apporach, instead of nitpicking small details.

If you create that mindset for yourself, you will enjoy all star trek series more, and appretiate the effort that goes into creating these episodes.

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I don't like Wesley Crusher.


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The_Tom
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Bravo, Wes.

Crobato:

So this is your logic: Braga is co-creating Enterprise. Braga was somehow responsible for Seven of Nine's costume (he wasn't). You find an emphasis on sexuality in Star Trek as the mark of a bad series. Jolene Blalock is an attractive woman. Therefore, Brannon Braga got Blalock cast for the sole purpose of dressing her up in Saran Wrap so as to cover up inferior writing. Therefore, Enterprise will suck.

*rolls eyes*

I'm very familiar with Okuda's reference work. I like it a lot. But I do have the good sense to know that Okuda filled in the spaces between straight canonical facts will perfectly logical conjecture that is therefore semi-canonical. The 2218 date is an example of this.

McCoy said that there'd been 50 years of conflict between the Klingons and the Federation, IIRC. Since there were no dates ever firmly established in TOS, that means nothing.

Then, in later Trek incarnations, TOS was nailed down to 300 years after the episodes aired. Therefore, conflict with the Klingons began around 2218 and ended with the Organian treaty in 2268.

In "First Contact," Picard (IIRC) said that first contact with the Klingons was disastorus event that led to "centuries of hostilities." Now, 2367, the date of the episode, is 149 years after 2218, and we know that there has been peace with the Klingons for at least the previous decade. So a minimum of 140 years of contact prior to TNG. IMHO, it was a reasonable conclusion on the part of Okuda to assume that there had been Klingon-Federation conflict continually from this disastrous first contact to "Day of the Dove", and therefore when compiling the Chronology he put two and two together and make the conjecture that Klingon-Federation first contact took place in 2218. Now, Picard's line of "centuries" makes this slightly suspect as 140 years is a bit on the low side to justify that moniker. But he could be rounding up to make a decent a figure of speech. (I doubt we could explain anything away by Picard being wrong--he was quite the historian, and I think a basic date like that would be pretty well known to all Starfleet captains.)

Here's a theory:

  • Premiere of Enterprise (at a guess, 2140) - "Disastrous" First Contact
  • 2140-2180 - Open conflict with the Klingons, beginning with Earth and Qo'noS and later the Federation and Qo'noS.
  • 2180-2220 - Brief period of peace, or detente, or something that makes for a lessening of hostilities.
  • 2220-2268 - Open conflict again, stopped by Organian Treaty.
  • 2268-2293 - "Cold War" between Fed and Klingons
  • 2293-2340 - Gradual warming of elations, though not without ups and downs
  • 2340-2371 - Genuine Peace with Klingons.

    As per the above, Picard, looking back from 2367, would be able to truthfully say that following first contact in 2140 there'd been centuries of hostilities, because there had indeed been a 200 year period that had been predominately full of hostility. And McCoy, looking back from 2268, could say there'd been 50 years of conflict with the Klingons.

    Is it a cheap explanation? Yes. Does it make a several-year old encyclopedia less accurate? Yes. But I've just demonstrated that Enterprise's slight modification of dates that we had been used to accepting can be incorporated into the Trek canon with a bit of creative thinking.

    One more thing:

    quote:
    but this is the first time Star Trek has gone to using a major lead star from another TV series, and probably paying record fee for it. You don't think they picked Bakula because he's got a command presence in screen do you? Is it the name? The Quantum Leap fandom?

    So you're implying Bakula was cast solely as a marketing move because the suits thought he'd make the show more profitable. Bullshit. For starters, Avery Brooks was quite prominent before DS9, but I don't regret that casting decision. I disagree with your assertation that Bakula has a name that will draw in fans, because honestly not that many people's faces light up with recognition when you say his name. Even when his casting was first leaked, it was always accompanied by "best known for his work as Sam Beckett on Quantum Leap". I doubt legions of people are going to watch the show solely because of his name value. But what may keep people who watch the show coming back for more is his acting talent. The guy won a fucking Golden Globe and was nominated for a pair of Emmies, for Chrissakes! Are TPTB meant to avoid casting anyone who's had a degree of success in the past?

    If you don't think he's the right sort of actor for a captain role, that's your opinion. But I will assert that such an opinion is ill-founded because you haven't seen a shred of footage of him in the role.

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    -DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

    [This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited May 18, 2001).]


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  • crobato
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    When something is said in TNG that contradicts what was said in TOS, the TOS should prevail. The contradiction in TNG is either bad proof reading, ignorance to observe previous canon. TOS canon should have rightly prevailed. Star Trek is the legacy of the Original Series. Even if Okuda filled that gap, that knowledge has been clearly accepted canon for years. If you want to constantly overwrite previous canon with later references, it actually invalidates the sanctity of canon, making it trivial and fair game.

    And don't give me that do it for the story crap---the trivialization, self contradiction and invalidation of the Star Trek universe had already taken a great toll in its fans. If you are really creative, you can do any story following strict guidelines. After all, technology is already supposedly limited here.

    The first contact with the Klingons have been a hostile one and has been so for the last fifty years. There is a stardate associated with that episode, so more or less, it's roughly fifty ears, but not one hundred fifty years.

    There is also how you portray the Klingons. Let's forget about the forehead makeup crap (Kahless has armored foreheads.) Things that can be attributed to sixties budget and limited special effects can be excused. We are talking about the character of the Klingons. Are they going to be more hostile, gang like thugs like in TOS? Or just the misrepresented, need to be understood honorable vikings in TNG?

    While a Vulcan on an Earth starship is not a continuity contradiction in paper, it is already a thinly veiled contradiction in spirit and intention, in the sense there is a letter of the law, and there is the intent of the law. How do you explain why there isn't another Vulcan in Starfleet before Spock when you have a Vulcan already in a Starfleet predecessor? This makes it even more ridiculous.

    Yes Avery Brooks was well known before going to DS9, and so was Mulgrew, Ethan Phillips and Rene Auberjonois (the latter two in the same show, Benson). But Hawk wasn't a successful series and Spencer had a limited life. It wasn't an SF show either with an established cult following. There is a mighty big difference between Brooks and Bakula is that Bakula came from a successful SF TV series with a cult following. Bakula is definitely more recognizable before Trek, than Brooks, Mulgrew, Philipps and Auberjonois did Trek. There is no denying that. There is also no denying that Bakula may have been paid the highest ever for any cast member for a Star Trek series.

    I'm interested how they will approach the Romulans. Are they going to reveal the Romulans by face, with actual encounters with humans? It should be noted that a good number of TOS aliens cannot be used here because they were first contact on TOS, such as Tholians and Gorns.

    [This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 18, 2001).]


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    TSN
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    Or maybe there won't be any Romulans at all, since the latest news is that the show is set half-a-century before the Romulan War...

    And your Vulcan arguement is unfounded. There's been nothing to suggest T'Pau/T'Pal/T'Pol/T'Whatever is a member of whatever agency the ship belongs to. She's just a member of the ship's crew. Like Kira on the Defiant, or Neelix on Voyager. If some far-future episode were to show a Federation expanded to Voyager's recent position, and there was a Talaxian in Starfleet, and someone said he/she was the first, would you say "No, Neelix was the first! Don't say he wasn't in Starfleet! He even wore a SF uniform!"?

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    -Gene Ray


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    crobato
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    Maybe you should have read the cast sheet again. T'pol or whatever certainly isn't the ship's cook. She's practically a commander. The Enterprise is most likely to be under a united Earth governing organization, similar to a UN, and definitely, Star Fleet's predecessor. This is certainly not a small time organization. She isn't just a member---she is a ranking officer. What is she doing there in the ship for the long term? Just visiting? Advisory position?

    Can you imagine a US Navy ship with a foreign citizen under its command ranks? They don't even do this in WWII.

    DS9 is basically a partnership between the Federation and Bajor, and the Defiant attached to it. I don't think Kira could come into any other starship and give orders. As for Neelix, watch him close---he takes direct orders from Janeway like a regular member of the crew. Officially he is of that capacity. Remember, Janeway made him an ambassador.

    As for the Romulans, let's wait and see. This is what Berman said:

    "Having been involved with The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine and Voyager, those series obviously have greater influence on me."

    And as Bernd Schneider observes, "So Series V which predates all of these should be least influenced by the one closest in time?"

    [This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 19, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 19, 2001).]


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    Harry
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    The Vulcans and the humans were allegedly very close in the days before the Federation, and according to the rumours, this subcommander T'P* is a *Vulcan* officer (hence the title), so, she's not in the Earth Stellar Navy (or whatever they'll call the new old Earth agency).
    She's possibly taking part in some extended Officer Exchange Project.

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    - Swiss Toni, The Fast Show (British comedy show)
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    Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

    [This message has been edited by Prakesh (edited May 19, 2001).]


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    The_Tom
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    quote:
    When something is said in TNG that contradicts what was said in TOS, the TOS should prevail. The contradiction in TNG is either bad proof reading, ignorance to observe previous canon. TOS canon should have rightly prevailed. Star Trek is the legacy of the Original Series. Even if Okuda filled that gap, that knowledge has been clearly accepted canon for years. If you want to constantly overwrite previous canon with later references, it actually invalidates the sanctity of canon, making it trivial and fair game.

    Sanctity? Need I quote Mr. Shatner?

    TOS made mistakes, too. There is a big fat Nitpicker's Guide to TOS, too, y'know. Three phrases to live by:
    Writers are human.
    Star Trek is fiction.
    Continuity Errors will be made.

    If you're wishing for post-TOS writers to pore over Encylopedias and Chronologies and TOS scripts before even considering the big picture, that being a good teleplay, you're wishing for a series with no viewers except people like you who put 35-year old lines of dialogue ahead of quality in every single case.

    Let me repeat. I like continuity. If continuity is broken and there are no significant rewards, then I'll bitch and whinge just like you. But a means-justifying-the-ends approach is a far more reasonable approach to take when crafting expectations for a fictional show.

    quote:

    And don't give me that do it for the story crap---the trivialization, self contradiction and invalidation of the Star Trek universe had already taken a great toll in its fans.


    Well, its apparently taken a toll on your ability to treat the series as make-believe from time to time. I'm holding up fine. Oh, the three weeks in the hospital after "Star Trek: First Contact" were bad, as was the night when the stardates in TNG's first season were out-of-order. When "Generations" made it clear that Kirk apparently died before Scotty went missing, I nearly had a heart attack. But I've soldiered through it all.

    quote:
    If you are really creative, you can do any story
    following strict guidelines. After all, technology is already supposedly limited here.

    No you can't. If you can't have a non-Earthcrew Vulcan onboard a pre-TOS ship, you can't have someone providing Roddenberrian commentary on the illogical state of mankind. If you can't have Zefram Cochrane behaving different to the way he was seen in TOS, you can't have the dramatic device of the guy not meeting the legendary expectations of the 24th century in ST:FC.

    quote:
    The first contact with the Klingons have been a hostile one and has been so for the last fifty years. There is a stardate associated with that episode, so more or less, it's roughly fifty ears, but not one hundred fifty years.

    Um, bullshit. Stardates are irrelevant. Like I said, Okuda put two and two together and made an OK conjecture. But let's not wet the bed if it gets overwritten and the result doesn't suck ass.

    quote:
    There is also how you portray the Klingons. Let's forget about the forehead makeup crap (Kahless has armored foreheads.) Things that can be attributed to sixties budget and limited special effects can be excused.

    There are signs of intelligent life! Yes!

    quote:
    We are talking about the character of the Klingons. Are they going to be more hostile, gang like thugs like in TOS? Or just the misrepresented, need to be understood honorable vikings in TNG?

    Good question. I'm curious... do you have problems with the fact that there was some variation in the portrayal of the Klingons between the two series? If you do, then we have further grounds for disagreement: sticking to TOS's writing style shouldn't be used as an excuse preventing us from learning that the Klingons did have more to them then evil savagery.

    quote:
    While a Vulcan on an Earth starship is not a continuity contradiction in paper, it is already a thinly veiled contradiction in spirit and intention, in
    the sense there is a letter of the law, and there is the intent of the law.

    I nearly choked on what I was eating when I read this. I think it's cute enough that we refer to the established body of the Trek community by a religious term, canon. But introducing legal precedent. Honestly, that's too funny.

    quote:
    How do you explain why there isn't another Vulcan in Starfleet before Spock when you have a Vulcan already in a Starfleet predecessor? This makes it even more ridiculous.

    See TSN's thoughts above.

    quote:
    ...Bakula came from a successful SF TV series with a cult following. Bakula is definitely more recognizable before Trek, than Brooks, Mulgrew, Philipps and Auberjonois did Trek. There is no denying that. There is also no denying that Bakula may have been paid the highest ever for any cast member for a Star Trek series.

    So fucking what. It's Paramount's money. It's not like they're charging a subscription fee to let you watch the show. If they want to spend more money to get better talent, all power to them. Look at the cast of some other sci-fi shows and you'll see what you get when you go cheap on the talent.

    quote:
    I'm interested how they will approach the Romulans. Are they going toreveal the Romulans by face, with actual encounters with humans? It should be noted that a good number of TOS aliens cannot be used herebecause they were first contact on TOS, such as Tholians and Gorns.

    I guess we'll have to wait and see, and complain based on what they do. I can't remember at all, but was "The Tholian Web" indeed the first contact with the Tholians?

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    -DT on arguing with Omega, April 30


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    crobato
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    "Writers are human.
    Star Trek is fiction.
    Continuity Errors will be made."

    Continuity errors and deliberate continuity violations are two different matters.

    We're not talking about a line or two here in reference to a past subject. Picard's line about the first meeting of Klingons is more of an error of dialog. We are talking about structuring an entire show to rewrite continuity in a possible vast and sweeping scale.

    Continuity errors and rewriting history are way too different matters. So is accidentally hitting someone in the road or trying to deliberately run them over. Don't you ever, ever confuse the two.


    "Well, its apparently taken a toll on your ability to treat the series as make-believe from time to time. I'm holding up fine. Oh, the three weeks in the hospital after "Star Trek: First Contact" were bad, as was the night when the stardates in TNG's first season were out-of-order. When "Generations" made it clear that Kirk apparently died before Scotty went missing, I nearly had a heart attack. But I've soldiered through it all."

    Speak for yourself.

    Four out of five TNG viewers have tuned out of Star Trek in the last years or so.

    This is about entertainment. The lack of consistency distracts from entertainment. When it does not entertain, we change the channel period.

    When more people tune out, series are cancelled. It does not matter if you have the fucking endurance to watch Trek. I don't believe I should "endure" watching Trek. You can endure whatever you want, it simply won't be there when it's cancelled in the first place. You think Trek now has a guaranteed future? For the first time in 10 years, there is a strong sense of doubt about the entire viability of the franchise. New viewers are simply tuning to Trek; they go to another cool series like Buffy or Farscape or Dark Angel. X-Files consistently has double the ratings of Voyager.

    "No you can't. If you can't have a non-Earthcrew Vulcan onboard a pre-TOS ship, you can't have someone providing Roddenberrian commentary on the illogical state of mankind. If you can't have Zefram Cochrane behaving different to the way he was seen in TOS, you can't have the dramatic device of the guy not meeting the legendary expectations of the 24th century in ST:FC."

    Oh please, don't use this example. People understand that the character of a person in a history book may be different in real life.


    "Um, bullshit. Stardates are irrelevant. Like I said, Okuda put two and two together and made an OK conjecture. But let's not wet the bed if it gets overwritten and the result doesn't suck ass."

    Oh I see, you're using tough words now.

    Stardates are irrevelant yeah. I WILL MAKE SURE THOSE WORDS WILL HAUNT YOU IN THE FUTURE. We now know how you regard contuinity, guideline and consistency.

    GO FUCK YOURSELF IF YOU THINK YOU'RE MANLY USING THE BS WORD.

    Stardates create a frame of reference, a sense of structure that is needed for belieavability.

    It is APOLOGISTS LIKE YOU that give Berman and Braga a license to screw things knowing they will be accepted and defended by asses like you.


    "So fucking what. It's Paramount's money. It's not like they're charging a subscription fee to let you watch the show. If they want to spend more money to get better talent, all power to them. Look at the cast of some other sci-fi shows and you'll see what you get when you go cheap on the talent."

    Excuse me? You think money equals talent? Just because you think they're lesser paid they're crappier talent? Do you ever think that they may compensate with enthusiasm and belief? Sure Paramount pays a lot for Voyager, and I don't even think it's in the top five for quality in an SF show.

    I check the other SF shows and I find many of them BETTER and more INNOVATIVE than Star Trek is now. Why don't you check other SF boards. The main SF literary movement literally disowns Star Trek. Very few established SF authors would even give Star Trek books a try. ST is a laugh. The most respected SF shows in TV now are the X-Files and Farscape. There is a polish in those two shows that even exceeds that of Trek. Andromeda gets better ratings in syndication than Voyager gets in network TV. Many of these shows are being done on a lesser budget.

    The fact that Paramount are paying so much RAISES the stakes if ratings are low. A higher cost of the show would make it more like to be CANCELLED. Higher costs raises the vulnerability exposure of cancellation. VIACOM stockholders are not happy about UPN and Trek anymore. For a show of Voyager's expense, a rating of 3.0 is totally ABYSMAL. In standard networks like ABC, CBS and NBC, Trek would have deservedly been cancelled long long ago. Trek is always running sort of like in a subsidy lifeline. One day, the stockholders will say, "Sorry, we don't do subsidies anymore." Then you will see what Paramount's Money interests will do to this show. It is a big MONEY LOSER. Not even the merchandise, the game licenses, the novels will make up for it. If Series V and Trek X tanks, it's kaput, finished.


    [This message has been edited by crobato (edited May 19, 2001).]


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    And yeah, for someone who says he looks at the Okuda encyclopedia, you can't even remember that yes, the Tholian Web is the first encounter for the Tholians. That one is also mentioned in the Star Trek Magazine. It is also mentioned in the Star Trek web site in the Xenology section which states:

    " Tholians

    Origin: Tholian space. A highly advanced sentient -- apparently crystalline species, non-humanoid in appearance and extremely territorial in disposition. They hail from a hot planet by Human standards, probably not class M. Together, two Tholian ships can literally spin a web of energy in space in order to trap an enemy vessel, after which the web is then drawn together, constricting and finally destroying the vessel inside. On stardate 5693.2, the U.S.S. Enterprise NCC-1701 made first contact with this species. "

    But I remember, Stardates are irrelevant for you and all that crap above is bullshit error dialog that Berman can overturn so he can introduce Tholians in Enterprise for story.



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