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"You know, putting up a tent is like making love to a beautiful woman. You undo the zip, pop in your pole and slip into the old bag."
- Swiss Toni, The Fast Show (British comedy show)
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Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

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OH NO< THE OLD MAN WALKS HIS GREEN DOG THAT SHOTS PINBALLS!~!!!
--
Jeff K
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" and nothing at all will happen.

Technological elements are consistently seen, if not provides a vital structure. In fact, much of the inspiration for future societies and their construction comes from extrapolating scientific or technological elements. It is not necessarily to be hard science---soft sciences such as anthropology are included in the mix. Le Guin's works for example, reflects a strong anthropological bent.

"much of the inspiration for future societies and their
construction comes from extrapolating scientific or technological elements."

There, you just agreed with me that the technological element is optional. Now go to sleep.

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

First of all, within all the "Enterprise" threads, I've seen several people consistently repeating 'It's just a TV show' or 'It's a fictional universe' or some variation on reminding us that Trek ain't real life. These in response to other people bitching about bad writing and/or continuity gaffes.

I would like to point out that the medium is utterly irrelevent. It's all about respect. That of the writers and producers for the universe they're playing in. Or lack of, in the case of Brannon Braga. Yes, he actually has been quoted in interviews as saying 'Continuity is for wussies' and variations on that. I have some of them. It is not in fact an act of rabid fannishness to demand internal consistency from a fictional universe. It is simply good storytelling. Respect for the story and respect for the audience is neither an extreme nor unreasonable expectation.

Braga is a good writer, as evidenced by his work on TNG, when he has someone over him. When he's been seen in a position of power, he's been invariably lazy. Starting with the thing with Scotty re: Kirk in "Generations". It was pointed out to him that when Scotty was rescued 75 years later, he thought Kirk was still alive, Braga said 'So what? That was only one episode. Who's gonna remember something like that?'... It this lack of respect for the integrity of the universe he's being allowed to play in and the lack of respect for his audience's intelligence that irks me here. How easy would it have been to add ONE extra line for Scotty as he and the others are staring out of the hull breach along the lines of 'Despite this, I know he's not dead...'?

Then he reprised his performance in writing "First Contact". Initially, he wanted to make Cochrane a woman to be Picard's romantic interest for the film. Again, it was pointed out that we met Cochrane in TOS and he was in fact a MAN. Again, his response was 'So? That was a single episode thirty years ago. Who's gonna remember that?', but fortunately he got vetoed by those above him. Lily was written in to be the romantic interest and Cochrane kept his testicles. All in all, I'm not too displeased with how "First Contact" came out -- writing-wise -- with one exception. We saw the epiphany that led Cochrane-as-introduced to later become the more introspective Cochrane we met in TOS, but that got thrown away utterly following the warp flight, as we saw him groovin' and boozin' wit' the Vulcans in the final scene. *sigh*

So you see, it is Brannon Braga's lack of respect for a basic tenet of storytelling, of the universe that he didn't even create, and of the audience that he seems to be actively trying to alienate that is rubbing us the wrong way. We were wary when we found out he was going to be co-creating "Enterprise", but we were willing to give him a chance... And he flipped off all of us again. For references to First Contact with the Klingons, watch TOS' "Errand of Mercy", "Day of the Dove", and Star Trek VI. The "apologists" keep saying that we only know of the duration of hostilities -- not the actual date of First Contact. But they're not paying attention to the dialogue thrown up for evidence... Everything heard onscreen on the subject states we went from First Contact to cold war in next to no time.

And so we end up here... In a television environment where I'd rather watch reruns of Babylon 5 (episodes that I've already seen at least half a dozen times and have on tape to boot) than the final episodes of Voyager. Where I am consistently enthralled by the stories spun on Farscape and The West Wing... and consistently bored by the formulas retreaded by the hacks at Paramount.

Episodic television was an artifact of the 50s and 60s that was on the way out in the 70s (remember the miniseries like Shogun and Centennial? Or series like Battlestar Galactica?). For light fare (like Moonlighting), it still serves, but for something "cerebral" it doesn't stand up. Buffy has exhibited more character growth than Voyager. And with Babylon 5 and Farscape moving arc-format television to the next level, Star Trek can't keep treading water and expect to be able to hold the interest of its supposed target audience. TPTB are trying to make Trek more accessible to mainstream audiences, and the result is disasterous. Star Trek is too intellectual for mainstream audiences, and has become too mainstream for intellectual audiences.

Look around the net. You will find next to no one eagerly awaiting "Enterprise", but lots of breathless anticipation for "Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers", "Buckaroo Banzai: Ancient Secrets and New Mysteries", and "Battlestar Galactica: The Second Coming".

All right. Let me have it...

--Jonah

P.S. Nimrod? Do you think you could PLEEEEASE not call me "Perry-Chops" any more...?

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

FYI, Vogon is the one who started the -chops prefix, a seemingly harmless and non-controversial nickname that many people have endured for a long time.

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

I only wouldn't say that Star Trek (Voyager) is going downhill - least of all compared to trivialities like Buffy or the scifi surrogate Farscape. It is only time that the journey ends because at some point even the best premise is exhausted.

This will be different in "Enterprise" from the very start. They don't even know whether it's taking place "100 years from now" or "100 years before the time of Kirk and Spock". This type of careless writing is still the exception in Voyager (because much of the setting was well-established and could be adopted from TNG and DS9), but it will be the rule in "Enterprise". I bet they won't give a damn on any established historical facts. And even if they do in the first few episodes, they will soon have plenty of aliens, anomalies, technology-of-the-week. To me it's not a misgiving, but certainty that they will screw up the whole universe.

So, which dialogue establishes FC with the Klingons at that time period?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Now, at least there is a point to this discussion

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"You know, putting up a tent is like making love to a beautiful woman. You undo the zip, pop in your pole and slip into the old bag."
- Swiss Toni, The Fast Show (British comedy show)
---
Titan Fleet Yards - Harry Doddema's Star Trek Site

------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
***
Card-Carrying Member of the Flare APAO
***
"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.

Jeff: Everything assembled together establishes the length of hostilities and the fact that First Contact was disastrous and that hostilities started right off. We don't NEED a conon date for First Contact because we have a canon duration of hostilities and the two are the same or close enough as makes no difference. In all cases, they say "Disastrous First Contact-War". Not "Disastrous First Contact-Century of nothing-War".

--Jonah

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"It's obvious I'm dealing with a moron..."

quote:

---

Starting with the thing with Scotty re: Kirk in
"Generations". It was pointed out to him that when Scotty was rescued 75 years later, he thought Kirk was still alive, Braga said 'So what? That was only one episode. Who's gonna remember something like that?'... It this lack of respect for the integrity of the universe he's being allowed to play in and the lack of respect for his audience's intelligence that irks me here. How easy would it have been to add ONE extra line for Scotty as he and the others are staring out of the hull breach along the lines of 'Despite this, I know he's not dead...'?

---

I'd rather RDM and BB had invested more time on making the film more entertaining (because, it, well, wasn't) rather than plugging every potential continuity abrasion first and making a good movie second. Continuity is like side-dish... tasty as hell, but only worth having beside a fat, juicy main course of entertainment.

quote:

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Then he reprised his performance in writing "First Contact". Initially, he wanted to make Cochrane a woman to be Picard's romantic interest for the film. Again, it was pointed out that we met Cochrane in TOS and he was in fact a MAN. Again, his response was 'So? That was a single episode thirty years ago. Who's gonna remember that?', but fortunately he got vetoed by those above him. Lily was written in to be the romantic interest.

---

quote:

---

but that got thrown away utterly following the warp flight, as we saw him groovin' and boozin' wit' the Vulcans in the final scene. *sigh*

---

quote:

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So you see, it is Brannon Braga's lack of respect for a basic tenet of storytelling

---

quote:

---

the audience that he seems to be actively trying to alienate that is rubbing us the wrong way. We were wary when we found out he was going to be co-creating "Enterprise", but we were willing to give him a chance... And he flipped off all of us again.

---

quote:

---

And so we end up here... In a television environment where I'd rather watch reruns of Babylon 5 (episodes that I've already seen at least half a
dozen times and have on tape to boot) than the final episodes of Voyager. Where I am consistently enthralled by the stories spun on Farscape and The West Wing... and consistently bored by the formulas retreaded by the hacks at Paramount.

---

quote:

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And with Babylon 5 and Farscape moving arc-format television to the next level

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quote:

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Star Trek is too intellectual for mainstream audiences, and has become too mainstream for intellectual audiences.

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20 million people would watch TNG. They were mainly intellectual people. Today they watch other series. 4 million people generally watch Voyager. Most of them also watched TNG, and are often dissatisfied that the overall level of quality and intellectuality have declined. The 16 million who don't watch Voyager are also fairly intellectual, but they're not avoiding Voyager because it makes more continuity errors than TNG (it probably doesn't significantly differ). Branding people who care about 35-year-old lines of dialogue more than holistic quality as "intellectual" and rejecting everyone else is an arrogant and stupid assertation.

Being mainstream and being intellectual are not mutually exclusive. TNG was generally both; Voyager was generally neither. Indeed, I'd speculate that TNG was mainstream because it was intellectual; indeed in the sea of crap dramas that dominated the early nineties, it was basically one of very few intellectual dramas on TV. Today, there are other intellectual dramas on TV and they tend to be more interesting than the TNG rehashes on Voyager. Enterprise needs to be interesting and captivating. I want that first. I want continuity too, but that shouldn't be the priority.

quote:

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Look around the net. You will find next to no one eagerly awaiting "Enterprise", but lots of breathless anticipation for "Babylon 5: The Legend of the Rangers", "Buckaroo Banzai: Ancient Secrets and New Mysteries", and "Battlestar Galactica: The Second Coming".

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