Topic: More details for "Regeneration" and "First Flight" (Spoilers)
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
From what I read, "Regeneration" could be a good end for the "Borg arc" startred in TNG. And the 200 years until the message reached the DQ makes sense. I think things were going like this: Borg are cruising around, assimilating and stuff (Neutral zone colonies and USS Tombaugh for example), but they don't think humans or the Federation are a threat. Starfleet knows the Borg from rumors and vague reports about cyborgs since 2152, gets concrete information from the El-Aurians around 2293, but they don't concider them a threat either (no contact until 2363, no reports of attacks that can be linked to the Borg, plus they think they're still in the Delta Quadrant). The Borg meet the E-D, Picard is concerned (J-25 being in the BQ after all - what Sussman said and I believe, too), the Borg are not. They have met mankind before. Some time after this incident the Borg get the message sent in "Regeneration" that says 'Assimilate all humans, they're dangerous, we know it, because we're from the future and traveled back in time', and the Borg start attacking earth, a.k.a. "The Best of Both Worlds". They have transwarp, Starfleet doesn't know this, so all their figures are inaccurate anyway ('we didn't expect them yet').
The Borg in the 2360's may find the message from the past quite interesting because it's actually from their future. One coud speculate that the message didn't say anything about the circumstances, so the Borg-queen thought travelling back in time sounds good but she should come with her drones to secure the mission's outcome. Causality loop completed.
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Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
You'd think they'd tack on some extra info to help their DQ buddies, like:
1) Assimilate all ships called "Enterprise" or "Voyager" as soon as you encounter them. 2) Attack with more than one cube. 6 would be good. 60 would be better. 3) 8472 is a bad number.
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I see a couple of flaws in your reasoning, although I do want to try to resolve it...
For one thing, if the Borg were using transwarp in BOBW, then why were they toying around by staying just at the E-D's maximum speed? If they knew that the Humans were a threat thanks to their message from the past, there's no reason why they'd do something like that.
Furthermore, if the past-Borg message had anything other than the location of Earth, there's no logical way that the Collective in 2350's and 60's would take things so piecemeal. If I had the opportunity to warn the future, and could send a detailed message, I'd send enough info to mention my past previous attempts to assimilate Earth!
Presumably, the message contained nothing more than the location of Earth. But... at the same time, the past-drones should ALREADY know that they received that same message themselves a few years before (from their perspective). So either they were intentionally fulfilling the causality loop, with the hope of doing things different next time, or else were completely unaware. Which makes this whole proposition silly.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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Cartman
just made by the Presbyterian Church
Member # 256
posted
Temporal paradoxes usually are.
-------------------- ".mirrorS arE morE fuN thaN televisioN" - TEH PNIK FLAMIGNO
Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
Indeed. Which is why I'm really looking forward to taking a whole class on time travel at the university next winter. It's a class taught in the Philosophy department, and the professor is also the author of "The Metaphysics of Star Trek." (That book has a whole section on some of the intricacies of time travel.
Then there's the fact that he's been known to bring in relevant films from various series and movies. I'm going to get college credit for watching "Star Trek" and "South Park"!
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
Well, I pretty much figured that...the first Borg enounter at Wolf 359 was a result of the interest piqued by the Q encounter in "Q Who", which has presumably been an accepted, dare I say, "fact".
However, what triggered the second Borg invasion from "First Contact"? Something had to give the Borg a reason to wander so far out of their realm to go after Earth again almost 10 years after their first failed attempt....
[insert inticing reason here]
....so anyway, they make this second incursion into the Federation and it fails. They go back in time, and within the next 100 years, they send a message to themselves from Earth instructing, again, themselves to assimilate Earth.
In retrospect, I can see that this could explain the reason for the mysteriously inticing 'second invasion' of Earth ("First Contact"), however, the hole in the theory is how they would have gotten the message in the first place. If it was indeed the message (from "Regeneration") that message that brought them to the place and, later, time (in "First Contact) to which it was originally sent, something needs to be spliced into the equation to make it all add up.
I know this is far from clearing the causality of it up, but it does pose another POV to the scenario.
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Registered: Jan 2003
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-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
You know, Regeneration explains something ELSE (at least potentially). 200 years puts it in the early 2350s? Right about the time of the Hanson Expedition...right? Now we know why Starfleet commissioned it to begin with!
Question: what is there to say that the El Aurians told Starfleet ANYTHING in the 2290s? They're notoriously closed mouthed about a lot of things, if Guinan is any example.
Registered: Mar 2002
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
on the matter of transwarp and BoBW, i think the Borg probably had transwarp already at that point. if you recall the transwarp architecture presented in 'Descent', you had to reach a certain fixed point in normal space to enter the TW conduit.. after that, the Borg might likely be confined to standard warps.. basically, there was no 'off-ramp' from the transwarp highway close to Earth.. they transwarped in somewhere at the Federation's perimeter, hit New Providence and the Lalo, then moved on towards sector 001.. it was just the closest they could get out of transwarp at that point.
this raises a lot of interesting questions about the physics of transwarp, of which the answers the Federation isnt privy to. Perhaps for every aperture that exits to normal space, it takes a certain amount of "tunneling" by the Borg at their transwarp hubs.. this would make transwarp far from an omnipotent form of travel, and much more dramatic, story-wise.. basically, even though the Borg could eventually build a hub that would allow them to exit apertures right at UFP space, the length of time we are talking about to "build" the conduit to their is their limiting factor(this explains "Endgame" where, at this point, the Borg had apparently succeeded in getting an aperture close to Earth, which they obviously didnt have in the BoBW/FC eras)
Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
So who is to say the Borg message didn't deteriorate on its way to the Delta Quadrant? A Borg ship picks up a transmission of which the message has been degraded, but they know it's a Borg transmission because of the encoding (or some technobable). So the Borg are curious -- "we don't have ANY ships waaaay out there, where did this message come from?!?!"
posted
Hmm. . . This ep is three weeks after "Horizon" which was on Sky last night. . . which means in theory it'll be on in three weeks. When I'm on holiday. Bugger.
Amasov Prime
lensfare-induced epileptic shock
Member # 742
posted
I agree, if the message arrived in the 2360's it could have been just the fact that it came from the Alpha Quadrant and was sent by a Borg that made things interesting for the collective. If it was the cause for the second invasion, the causality loop would be limited to First Contact/Regeneration.
Now, let's talk about the Borg-queen's line at the end of First Contact about Picard thinking too three-dimensional and her reappearance in Voyager. And while we're at it, how about everything after FC took place in an alternate timeline? :head explodes:
-------------------- "This is great. Usually it's just cardboard walls in a garage."
Registered: Nov 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Futurama Guy: Well that came from out of left field...and in the meantime I must have missed the point...
Is there supposed to be a point!?!
Actually that is what I was wondering in the first place...as you certainly weren't making a very clear one...
I was sorta replying to a post on page 2. I didn't quote it. But everyone was talking about system J25 - so I had an idea about quadrants and co-ordinates... not really THAT great-a-stretch.
Hmph. Stupid Channel NEIN! (Nine) aren't playing Enterprise tonight. PLUS I downloaded last weeks "The Communicator" and it was laden with problems - I had it save to CD and in parts it just stopped and I got a warning saying something like "cyclical error" what ever THAT is.
Anyone know.
Andrew
-------------------- "Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)
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![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
It's a class taught in the Philosophy department, and the professor is also the author of "The Metaphysics of Star Trek." (That book has a whole section on some of the intricacies of time travel.![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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