posted
Since Enterprise seems to be highlighting the Earth-Romulan War next season, it got me to thinking about what latitude could be exercised in telling that story.
What is canon regarding the E-R War?
Later
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
There is actually a lot of discussion about that time period on this era of Romulans in the Flare achives around the time "Minefield" aired and that is all basically from "Balance of Terror".
...and incase that doesn't explain it, it basically goes unchanged after the 37 years since it was first mentioned: Early space vessels with primitive atomic weapons - a lot of members of the Stiles family was killed in the conflict - and they never saw each others faces. El Fin.
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
posted
Well, there's a few more. The Romulans reach Earth and there is a battle. The Battle of Cheron is the last battle. The end of the war leads to the founding of the UFP.
-------------------- Is it Friday yet?
Registered: Feb 2000
| IP: Logged
posted
The Romulans reach Earth? I don't think so. According to "Homefront/Paradise Lost", a state of emergency is declared on Earth at that time, or something like that, nothing more.
The closest we hear about Romulans is a battle at Tau Ceti in Kirk's time (or perhaps it was a simulated battle?), mentioned offhand in "Whom Gods Destroy". And they got to Alpha Centauri in the alternate universe where Sisko didn't replace Gabriel Bell.
The end of the war leads to the founding of the UFP? Possibly, but it's not stated anywhere. The war could well have continued beyond the founding of the Federation. Or even been started *after* the founding, if we ditch the interpretation that an "Earth/Romulan" war cannot be a Fed/Romulan one. We don't have solid dates, just the concept that it all happened "a century" before "Balance of Terror".
The Battle of Cheron is the decisive battle, but perhaps not the very last. Nitpicking, I know, but there's the chance that the war dragged on quite a bit after the Romulans lost, with a peace treaty signed decades after Cheron. Why speculate on such things? Because Spock lets slip that there were Romulan "wars", plural, in one sentence in "Balance of Terror". The uncertainty between singular and plural is a typical feature of long conflicts.
posted
Do we know that Cheron was in the Earth-Romulan war? Unless I missed something (which is certainly possible, as I haven't seen many later DS9 episodes or much of Voyager), it could have been after TOS: "Balance of Terror."
In TNG: "The Defector," Jarok said that it was a humiliating defeat, but he didn't say when. And even for a Vulcanoid race, two centuries seems like a long time to still be sore about it.
And in TNG: "Pegasus," Picard says the Treaty of Algeron has kept peace between the Federation and the Romulan Empire for "sixty years," implying some conflict between them around 2310 or so--which is also around the date of the Tomed Incident, whatever that was.
(at this point I had originally written, "on the other hand, "Incident" sort of implies something less than a full scale war." But then I remembered that snatch of conversation between Garak and Bashir in DS9: "Way Of the Warrior," about the B'something Nebula Incident between the Klingons and Cardassians. You know, the "minor skirmish" that "lasted eightteen years.")
The most fascinating tidbit (to me, anyway) is that the Romulan Ambassador is present when Starfleet briefs the UFP President on Operation Retrieve in Star Trek VI. That implies a high degree of friendship and cooperation between the two governments. What happened between 2268 and 2293 to make that possible? And what happened between then and the Romulan withdrawal?
I've never been happy with the idea of the Romulan War ending in an Earth victory. Things like the Neutral Zone suggest to me a war that ended in a stalemate, or maybe a peace imposed on both sides by a third party, a la the Organians.
One problem ENT is going to have is that the Enterprise already has technology too advanced for the Romulan war, which was fought with "primitive atomic" weapons and crude comm systems that didn't allow for visual communication.
Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged
posted
Actually, the weapons the Enterprise uses could well be "atomic". Even the weapons Kirk's ship used could be "atomic", just not "primitive atomic", and the semantic requirements would still be met. Introduce the phase pistol to a 1930s or 1950s scifi reader, and he'll go "ahh, an atomic blaster!"...
And it seems doubtful the limitation on visuals was a technological one. Spock's run-on sentence on what was different back then leaves open the more realistic possibility that the Romulans simply refused to acknowledge the calls. Just like they did in "Minefield".
Good point about Cheron dating, though. No canon source pegs it as a RW event. And Kirk appeared unfamiliar with planet Cheron in "Let that... Battlefield", which would be VERY odd if a famous battle site of that name already existed (never mind if the battle site wasn't actually a planet, the similarity in names should have sent Kirk speculating instead of just staring numbly).
Clearly, some sort of "my enemy's enemy" I-rub-yours-you-rub-mine arrangement was in place in ST6:TUC. Noncanon sources speak of a Klingon-Romulan alliance during TOS, but canon doesn't mention that. Instead, it seems there was a Romulan-Fed alliance in the 2290s, and perhaps even earlier on... Until the Romulan instinct for backstabbing got the better of them.
quote:Originally posted by Timo: And it seems doubtful the limitation on visuals was a technological one. Spock's run-on sentence on what was different back then leaves open the more realistic possibility that the Romulans simply refused to acknowledge the calls. Just like they did in "Minefield".
I'll take your word for it; it's been a long time since I've actually seen the episode. I thought the dialogue implied that it was due to hardware limitations, but maybe I'm just remembering something from a non-canon source.
quote:Clearly, some sort of "my enemy's enemy" I-rub-yours-you-rub-mine arrangement was in place in ST6:TUC.
I assume that would be the basis of it, but that alone wouldn't extend to the point of letting a Romulan representative sit in on a classified briefing. Unless the UFP really does take the "good guys = naive and trusting" thing that far.
quote:Noncanon sources speak of a Klingon-Romulan alliance during TOS, but canon doesn't mention that.
The Klingon-Romulan alliance idea stems from the Romulans using Klingon ships in TOS: "The Enterprise Incident," although I don't think the episode ever really states why the Romulans are using Klingon ships. An alliance is just the most obvious explanation.
posted
Sisko said in "Homefront" (DS9) that the landing of Jem'Hadar troops on Earth would constitute "the kind of war Earth hasn't seen since the founding of the Federation," which it seems would likely refer to the RW.
The Okudas' Star Trek Chronology points out that the reason for placing the Battle of Cheron at or near the end of the RW is that Jarok/Setal associated the battle with the establishment of the Neutral Zone. (It is also worth noting that the mention of the event is nicked from the Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology by Stan & Fred Goldstein, which describes it as the final conflict of the war.)
Romulans and Klingons have obviously already had some technological exchange prior to the 22nd century, and the two governments along with Earth settled Nimbus III together in the late 2260s. They became "blood enemies" circa 2292, however. (According to Geordi in "Reunion" [TNG].) This, nicely, is just in time for the Romulan government to be conspiring with upper-echelon members of Starfleet and rogue elements of the Klingon military in TUC.
Regardless of the conspiracy, though, it makes absolutely no sense that Nanclus would be allowed to sit in on the Operation: Retrieve briefing, and I chide Nicholas Meyer for this very unthoughtful and inane directing decision.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
Teh PW
Self Impossed Exile (This Space for rent)
Member # 1203
posted
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Do we know that Cheron was in the Earth-Romulan war? Unless I missed something (which is certainly possible, as I haven't seen many later DS9 episodes or much of Voyager), it could have been after TOS: "Balance of Terror."
In TNG: "The Defector," Jarok said that it was a humiliating defeat, but he didn't say when. And even for a Vulcanoid race, two centuries seems like a long time to still be sore about it.
And in TNG: "Pegasus," Picard says the Treaty of Algeron has kept peace between the Federation and the Romulan Empire for "sixty years," implying some conflict between them around 2310 or so--which is also around the date of the Tomed Incident, whatever that was.
(at this point I had originally written, "on the other hand, "Incident" sort of implies something less than a full scale war." But then I remembered that snatch of conversation between Garak and Bashir in DS9: "Way Of the Warrior," about the B'something Nebula Incident between the Klingons and Cardassians. You know, the "minor skirmish" that "lasted eightteen years.")
The most fascinating tidbit (to me, anyway) is that the Romulan Ambassador is present when Starfleet briefs the UFP President on Operation Retrieve in Star Trek VI. That implies a high degree of friendship and cooperation between the two governments. What happened between 2268 and 2293 to make that possible? And what happened between then and the Romulan withdrawal?
I've never been happy with the idea of the Romulan War ending in an Earth victory. Things like the Neutral Zone suggest to me a war that ended in a stalemate, or maybe a peace imposed on both sides by a third party, a la the Organians.
One problem ENT is going to have is that the Enterprise already has technology too advanced for the Romulan war, which was fought with "primitive atomic" weapons and crude comm systems that didn't allow for visual communication.
one more beer can to throw into the stew is how the events on ST:FC have altered the timeline...everyone crys how fucked up the current stage effects and dodads greatly out class 1960's Sfx but you got a movie as justification to revisualize a medium...
quote:Noncanon sources speak of a Klingon-Romulan alliance during TOS, but canon doesn't mention that.
The Klingon-Romulan alliance idea stems from the Romulans using Klingon ships in TOS: "The Enterprise Incident," although I don't think the episode ever really states why the Romulans are using Klingon ships. An alliance is just the most obvious explanation.
Personally, I'm open to the possibility that the Romulans managed to capture a Klingon ship and copied it, similar to the way the Russians copied several American aircraft designs. There was a show (on the History Channel, I think?) about how the Russians got their hands on the B-29 and copied it, even going as far to copy the damage a repair doublers, creating the Tu-4. Maybe this is one of the reasons Klingons really don't like Romulans?
quote:Originally posted by Pensive's Wetness: one more beer can to throw into the stew is how the events on ST:FC have altered the timeline...everyone crys how fucked up the current stage effects and dodads greatly out class 1960's Sfx but you got a movie as justification to revisualize a medium...
But as per "Regeneration" (ENT) it would seem that TPTB are portraying any "alterations" caused by the events of FC as simply part of the normal flow of time. In other words, that's how it was always "supposed" to happen.
quote:Originally posted by B.J.:
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: The Klingon-Romulan alliance idea stems from the Romulans using Klingon ships in TOS: "The Enterprise Incident," although I don't think the episode ever really states why the Romulans are using Klingon ships. An alliance is just the most obvious explanation.
Personally, I'm open to the possibility that the Romulans managed to capture a Klingon ship and copied it, similar to the way the Russians copied several American aircraft designs. There was a show (on the History Channel, I think?) about how the Russians got their hands on the B-29 and copied it, even going as far to copy the damage a repair doublers, creating the Tu-4. Maybe this is one of the reasons Klingons really don't like Romulans?
It's entirely possible that this sort of thing occurred. An alliance is equally possible. But whether by mutual espionage or cooperative exchange, the Klingons and Romulans each have acquired elements of the other's technology and design and have incorporated them into their own. Moreover, as I pointed out, this has obviously been going on even before the timeframe of ENT.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by B.J.: Personally, I'm open to the possibility that the Romulans managed to capture a Klingon ship and copied it, similar to the way the Russians copied several American aircraft designs. There was a show (on the History Channel, I think?) about how the Russians got their hands on the B-29 and copied it, even going as far to copy the damage a repair doublers, creating the Tu-4. Maybe this is one of the reasons Klingons really don't like Romulans?
B.J.
From The Enterprise Incident: "That's a Klingon ship!" "But it couldn't be, not in this area." "Intelligence reports Romulans now using Klingon design."
quote:Originally posted by MarianLH: Noncanon sources speak of a Klingon-Romulan alliance during TOS, but canon doesn't mention that.
Not a lot can really be speculated from the above quote the ST:Encyclopedia seems to incate a brief Klingon-Romulan Alliance, and thats semi-canon enough for me.
Regarding the Treaty of Algeron:
From The Defector - "Second officer's log, supplemental. We are prepared to enter the Neutral Zone in direct violation of the Treaty of Algeron." --------- "The humiliating defeat at the Battle of Cheron has not been forgotten. The new leaders have vowed to discard the treaty and claim the Neutral Zone. Nelvana Three is only the first step."
From The Pegasus. "That's what this is all about? A cloaking device? In the Treaty of Algeron the Federation specifically agreed not to develop cloaking technology." -- "That treaty has kept the peace for sixty years. And as a Starfleet officer, you are sworn to uphold it."
It seems fairly self explainatory that the Treaty of Algeron was created in association with the Neutral Zone and is tied into the Battle of Cheron. This also seems to be confirmed in the ST: Encyclopedia. The 60-year reference to the cloaking device easily could have been an amendment to the original treaty.
-------------------- Hey, it only took 13 years for me to figure out my password...
Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
posted
The Federation might have been in it's infantcy when the Earth/Romulan war broke out or it could have started as a war between one of Earth's allies (Andoria as an example) that led to Earth's involvment, strengthening of alliances between Earth and the other founding UFP members that would eventually lead to the federation.
I believe the cloaking device ban and the Treaty of Algeron were a result of The Tomed Incident that left "thousands" of federation citizens dead and led to the romulans isolating themselves from contact with the federation.
The Algeron treaty might have been the only thing that prevented all-out war. It fits the timeline better and a KLingon/Romulan alliance explains why KLingons use ships called "Bird of Prey" and have cloaking devices.
...of course, the Romulans still had contact (and conflict) with their ol' pals, the Klingons during their isolation and even managed to wipe out Nerandra Three and Khitomer during this timeframe. Sounds like the Klingon's hatred for the Romulans stems from all the times they got their assses kicked by them between STVI and TNG.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
So, do we think that the entire E-W was fought ship-to-ship, or was there a ground element to it? How exactly could it have started? ENT seems to have shown a Romulan incursion by a cloaked BoP (awesome design that) which shows interest on their parts as early as 2151. I would like to see some combination of Starfleet and MACO forces fighting on different fronts. I can imagine the following conversation going on between Admiral Forrest and Starfleet Intelligence:
"How can we issue a formal declaration of war against a species we know nothing about?"
"We know enough to act. We know they're aggressive. And territorial. And they can reach Earth. Don't forget the Xindi."
"I have not forgotten the Xindi. But we don't know what they're capable of. Or how they would interpret the declaration."
"What's the worst that could happen? If they are offended by it, we're already in it up to our eyes...if not..."
"If not?"
"If not, then maybe they'll surrender."
"Or maybe they'll call friends. Who are their allies? You don't know."
"At this point, their hostile intent is clear. We owe it to those who died to make sure.."
"Oh God, here we go again with the speeches."
"we owe it to them to make sure they didn't die in vain."
-------------------- This is just fun...it's not life...keep this in mind and we'll all enjoy it much more
Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
Topic Closed
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic