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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » Hermes/Saladin/Ptolemy (Page 8)

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Author Topic: Hermes/Saladin/Ptolemy
MinutiaeMan
Living the Geeky Dream
Member # 444

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C'mon, there's an easy answer: If Scotty always multiplied his repair estimates by four, then it's obvious that he did the same for the mass figure too. And 190,000 times 4 equals 760,000... which is close enough to fit under the definition of "almost a million."

Problem solved! [Razz]

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“Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov
Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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I've got the GURPS rule book- Scotty has several disadvantages:
Alcoholism -15 points
Obisity- -5 points
Clumsy -5 points

Those 20 points all go to boosting his Engineering Skill

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Vanguard
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MinutieaMan, I like that. I do. [Smile]

But, honestly, I still see the scene as it if was an exhasperated Scotty saying "This is rediculous!" more than any technically-oriented statement.

When I tell my daughters "I told you a thousand times to clean this room!", I haven't ACTUALLY told them a thousand times. It's a statement of exhasperation.

Besides, the 'million tons' figure would make the Enterprise nearly a solid chunk of very heavy metals. Physically, it's impratical if not outright impossible.

Unlike 'new Trek' and Okuda running the technology, TOS never really delved into the 'technobabble' all that much.

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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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Or exasperation.
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Vanguard
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Canonistas and spellinistas! There's enough for a revolution here!

Daniel Butler... you win the internet! [Smile]

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www.jaynz.info - The Record of Star Fleet

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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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WOOHOO YAY! [Smile] ))
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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Yes, but it includes the right-wing sites, the nazi crazies and all those she-male sites that you'll have a hard tme explaining ownership of to your mom.
Plus, you have to run the entire thing from your home computer.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Guardian 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Vanguard:
But, honestly, I still see the scene as it if was an exhasperated Scotty saying "This is rediculous!" more than any technically-oriented statement.

When I tell my daughters "I told you a thousand times to clean this room!", I haven't ACTUALLY told them a thousand times. It's a statement of exhasperation.

Scotty's statement neither follows the pattern of, nor is in the tone of, such an exasperated statement. Nobody responds to it as such. And so on.

The reality is that you're using a claim of exasperated exaggeration without evidence in order to attempt to contradict the evidence of the show itself.

This would be akin to me saying you're really a canonista yourself, and all this badmouthing of it on your part is mere parody. Sure I have no evidence for that, but I can go on and on with it just like you do . . . for instance, who would be so silly as to actually say 'canonista' and mean it? Obviously you're joking, and thus you really believe the nearly-a-million-tonne figure. (See how simple it is to ignore the facts?)

Further, you're suggesting . . . literally, really . . . that he's multiplied the number by a factor of four. After all, your preferred value is about 200,000 tonnes . . . the value he states is nearly a million, putting the difference somewhere between four and five times.

When you make exasperated statements with inflated numbers, is that what you do? Did you actually tell your daughters to clean 250 times before stating 1000?

No. That's not how it works. You picked an unreasonably high figure . . . not one within the same general order of magnitude.

quote:
Besides, the 'million tons' figure would make the Enterprise nearly a solid chunk of very heavy metals. Physically, it's impratical if not outright impossible.
It's entirely possible, and even likely. While you want a ship to be light for the purposes of moving it, you're going to want it well-protected and well-built for the purposes of not getting blown to bits.

When Rick Sternbach was figuring the mass of Voyager, he based it on the density of the Apollo capsule, which was basically a tin can.

Your value for the Constitution Class would make it 75% as dense as Apollo. Do you really think that they made a frontline starship not even as dense as a 20th Century tin can?

Your value is also 90% as dense as water. In other words, the Enterprise would float. Do you really think Kirk's Enterprise would float?

(And no, don't try to retort that the Bird of Prey from ST4 floated. That small section of bridge module stayed above water for some time, but the tail sank most immediately, and given that the depth of the SF Bay averages 14 feet (going as deep as 360 near the Golden Gate), it hardly follows that the ship was floating. More likely its ass was simply sunk into the bottom of the bay.)

quote:
Unlike 'new Trek' and Okuda running the technology, TOS never really delved into the 'technobabble' all that much.
Hence all those advisors from Rand and such. Sure.

Anyway, thanks for helping me update my discussion of the 190,000 tonne fallacy.

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G2k's ST v. SW Tech Assessment

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Vanguard
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The Original Series had scientific advisors to keep the show from feeling like the crap sci-fi shows of the previous few decades. It was NEVER about being 'hard sci-fi', ever. The 190,000 figure came from all four of TOS's guides, which all CAME AFTER the final size of the ship.

(The mass was dervied from aircraft carriers of roughly the same size.. and actually made HEAVIER to account for 'super materials'.)

Also, you know, considering that a full third of the secondary hull is expressly HOLLOW on the Enterprise, and how the rest of the ship is actually VERY roomy, where the Apollo was decidedly NOT. I mean, look at the bridge itself, it's HUGE and nearly mostly just air for the crew to breathe.

Apollo didn't even allow for the three men to move all that much. They were literally crawling over one another.

I think Rick started with a foolish assumption, and you're continuing the assumption in order to... win debates with Warsies because you MUST have as big as numbers as possible?

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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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...this is the only discussion I've ever read here on Flare that made me want to respond with "it's just a TV show, give it a rest."

Seriously. It's heavy. It's big. It would hurt if you kicked it. Is it really necessary to argue over the tonnage? It violates physics by moving faster than light anyway.

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Vanguard
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I made the mistake of looking at the man's site... I may have lost INT. [Razz]

You're right in that it's "just a TV show". But since I'm doing all sorts of tech-stuff , I want to be consistant, and the 190,000MT makes more sense to me.

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Daniel Butler
I'm a Singapore where is my boat
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Well normally I'm all for rationalization and figuring out ways to smooth over plot holes and technological inconsistencies...but this just seems a bit too....picky lol. I mean can't you just say Scotty was using some other form of 'ton'? Maybe he was shortening from isoton.
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Teh PW
Self Impossed Exile (This Space for rent)
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...for like 14 seconds as i scrolled up, i thought Guardian 2000's post was E's...

o.O sorry sure for insulting you as such...

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Sean
First Tenor
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No, if G2k's post was E's it would look like this:

"The, Enterprise, is a, million, tonnes. I, know this, because Scotty, is a miracle, worker and, therefore, cannot be, lying. You are all, wrong and uneducated, in this, subject"

[Wink] [Big Grin]

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"Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten

"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity".
-George Carlin

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Vanguard
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quote:
I mean can't you just say Scotty was using some other form of 'ton'? Maybe he was shortening from isoton.
Like I said, the line just doesn't seem to be meant as literal, and he certainly didn't need to report to the CAPTAIN on the mass of the ship. So I'm going to say Scotty was being himself, and not worry about it.

Remember, this is the same bit of text that had the POWER SOURCE for the ships be LITHIUM crystals.

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