Flare Sci-fi Forums
Flare Sci-Fi Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » Daedalus rethunk (Page 1)

  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: Daedalus rethunk
Timo
Moderator
Member # 245

 - posted      Profile for Timo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This one could also be in the Enterprise forum, but I think it's techy enough to be discussed here.

Now that we'll get to see what Starfleet is flying in the 2150s, we will be faced with the fact that the Daedalus class is in fact really puny as far as starships go. Clearly, it will be difficult to pretend it's the top dog of the 2160-2190 period. So it could be time to rethink the whole concept of the Daedalus class now.

The Essex is the only canonically known example of the Daedalus class, and even then we lack visual identification. So there are a lot of options on how to deal with the ships we THOUGHT were Daedaloi - from more severe to less so:

1) Essex is a Daedalus, as canonically stated, but looks completely different from the conjectural pictures, and is well armed and armored. Horizon is the only one that looks like the baseball-and-beer-can, as per the tabletop model, but she is not Daedalus class. Archon is something utterly else altogether, and potentially also big and bad.

2) Essex is a Daedalus and so is Horizon. Given their similar registries, they are likely to share a class. Thus, both must look like the Horizon tabletop model. Archon is a different ship, possibly more powerful.

3) All the ships are indeed just like speculated in the Encyclopedia. They just aren't very powerful for their era. They are more akin to Oberths, and the seeming lack of weapon ports is in fact because the ships do not HAVE weapons.

4) All the ships are just like speculated in the Encyclopedia, and they are indeed the primary ships of their day. Starfleet just went wimpy for a while. Or perfected miniaturization, and then forgot about it.

The second theory appeals to me the most. I'd hate to lose the tabletop design, but I'd also hate to think of it in a major role now that we know that Starfleet had bigger and more modern things from day one (or, rather, from year minus-ten). There is nothing in "Power Play" to suggest that the Essex was not a meek Oberth-like surveyor, now is there? Nor are the capabilities of the Archon or the Horizon clearly outlined in the episodes.

Just like Oberths look somewhat antiquated in the TOS movie era, so the Daedaloi could be old designs dating from before the "saucer era" that was begun by NX-01. Size-wise, they are similar to the supposed Enterprise class as Oberths are to the Constitution class...

Timo Saloniemi


Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

 - posted      Profile for TSN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why #2 and not #3? They're the same, except for the assumption in #2 that the Archon is different. There's no reason for this, so #3 appeals more to me...
Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Timo
Moderator
Member # 245

 - posted      Profile for Timo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mainly because it seems unreasonable to assume that ALL the starships lost in that time period would be from a single class, let alone from the "Oberth class" of the day. This was a suspect choice originally, and all the more suspect now. Earlier we could claim that Starfleet lacked the resources to send anything more than their top designs to deep space, so only those ships would disappear. Now that we know that to be untrue, I think we should go for diversity wherever we can.

And by making the Archon more akin to the Constitutions of the day than to an Oberth, we'd be continuing the TOS tradition of having mainly the best and biggest ships (Exeter, Defiant, Constellation) get into trouble or disappear. That would nicely separate the show from TNG, where the smallest and dinkiest ships were the ones to get into trouble (apart from the hero ship, of course).

When Mike originally labeled all the old ships as Daedalus class, he was sorely lacking in alternatives - note he never tried to think up a fictional class for the USS Valiant, even if that strange NCC-1226 popped up from somewhere. Now that there are alternatives upcoming, I think he should rethink the decision and retcon the canonically unconfirmed parts.

Timo Saloniemi


Registered: Nov 1999  |  IP: Logged
Aban Rune
Former ascended being
Member # 226

 - posted      Profile for Aban Rune     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just out of curiosity, how does the pre-Ent stack up to the Daedalus size-wise, Timo?

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Starfleet had more than one type of really solid design around the time of the Daedalus. I also don't think it's unreasonable to assume that the Daedalus wasn't the top of the line. I mean, the pre-Ent is going to be getting into all kinds of trouble every couple weeks or so and not crash land on a moon, or get lost or anything... My point is, I think it's completely possible that, even though the Daedalus is newer than the pre-Ent, it may have about the same level of toughness...

Or something. Am I making any sense at all...?

--------------------
"Nu ani anqueatas"

Aban's Illustration
The Official Website of Shannon McRandle


Registered: Oct 1999  |  IP: Logged
PsyLiam
Hungry for you
Member # 73

 - posted      Profile for PsyLiam     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"That would nicely separate the show from TNG, where the smallest and dinkiest ships were the ones to get into trouble (apart from the hero ship, of course)."

And the rest of the Galaxy class ships. Yamoto, Oddysey, Enterprise; they lost half their original ships in less than ten years. Not a good thing for a design tht was suppossed to last a century...

How big is the Daedalus anyway? I'd bet that if we do see any Daedalus', they'll look slighty different (read = better/newer) than they do in the Encyclopdia.

--------------------
Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Veers
You first
Member # 661

 - posted      Profile for Veers         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't forget, the USS Galaxy got shot up pretty bad in "Tears of the Prophets." I think that maybe whatever the Pre-Ent's class was, it was too costly to produce many of with the Romulan Wars going on and limited resources they had, so they designed a simpler Daedalus class vessel. Whereas the Enterprise may be a warship (from the looks) the Daedalus class was an explorer design, like the TOS Enterprise.

--------------------
Meh

Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
AndrewR
Resident Nut-cache
Member # 44

 - posted      Profile for AndrewR     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why can't we alternatively just IGNORE everything pertaining to and around 'Enterprise' - it doesn't even have Star Trek in the title... I'd go TAS over ENT... in terms of canonicity.

--------------------
"Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica." - Jim Halpert. (The Office)

I'm LIZZING! - Liz Lemon (30 Rock)

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Reverend
Based on a true story...
Member # 335

 - posted      Profile for Reverend     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I'd go TAS over ENT... in terms of canonicity.

What about that ship in TAS that was supposed to be the first ship with warp drive that looked like an overweight connie.


I just consider the Daedalus to be the Volvo of the 22nd century, a reliable, solid runaround...if a little on the boxy side

--------------------
Dark Knight Adventures & Batman Beyond:Stripped - DeviantArt Gallery
================================
...what we demand is a total absence of solid facts!


Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343

 - posted      Profile for Shik     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Bonaventure.

--------------------
"The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"

Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
The Mighty Monkey of Mim
SUPPOSED TO HAVE ICE POWERS!!
Member # 646

 - posted      Profile for The Mighty Monkey of Mim     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
What about that ship in TAS that was supposed to be the first ship with warp drive that looked like an overweight connie.

You mean this? The S.S. Bonaventure NCC-S2100. It's supposed to be the first STARFLEET ship with warp drive. (Not that Ent isn't going to blow that to hell...) And it happens to be one of my favorite ship designs. Overweight Connie, my ass! this is exactly what a Pre-TOS ship should look like, not some anorexic Akira! Smaller, a little bulkier, but still recognizable.

[ July 26, 2001: Message edited by: The Mighty Monkey of Mim ]



--------------------
The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.

Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
The_Tom
recently silent
Member # 38

 - posted      Profile for The_Tom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Speaking subjectively of course, that ship looks like it took more than a few whacks from the ugly stick. A regular beat-down, really.

--------------------
"I was surprised by the matter-of-factness of Kafka's narration, and the subtle humor present as a result." (Sizer 2005)

Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Reverend
Based on a true story...
Member # 335

 - posted      Profile for Reverend     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
supposed to be the first STARFLEET ship with warp drive. (Not that Ent isn't going to blow that to hell...)

I think the Phoenox already did that.


quote:
that ship looks like it took more than a few whacks from the ugly stick.

More like it had an entire ugly tree dropped on it from a great height.

--------------------
Dark Knight Adventures & Batman Beyond:Stripped - DeviantArt Gallery
================================
...what we demand is a total absence of solid facts!


Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
TSN
I'm... from Earth.
Member # 31

 - posted      Profile for TSN     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Definitely a small, pregnant Constitution...

The Daedalus is not quite as long as the Akiraprise' saucer.

Reverend: Erm... The Phoenix was very much not a Starfleet ship.

"...it seems unreasonable to assume that ALL the starships lost in that time period would be from a single class..."

Wow. They only lost a grand total of three ships? That's a pretty damned good record... *rolls eyes*

Is it so unreasonable to assume that the three starships we happen to have heard about, out of all the ones lost in that time, were of the same class?


Registered: Mar 1999  |  IP: Logged
Dukhat
Hater of Stock Footage
Member # 341

 - posted      Profile for Dukhat     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In the TAS episode it was featured in, Scotty makes the statement ,"There's the old Bonaventure, the first ship to have warp drive installed." Scotty does NOT say that it was the first Starfleet ship w/ WD, but the FIRST SHIP. Period.

Of course, First Contact changes this to the Phoenix, which is a good thing. A very good thing. Because the ship looks too much like the Enterprise to have been built in 2063 or whenever. And it's ugly. (In TAS's defense, I'm sure no one was really figuring things out chronologically like Okuda would later do.)

Now if you want to take Scotty's statement figuratively instead of literally, then you might say that he meant that the Bonaventure was the first Starfleet ship. It makes much more sense. Although the ship still remains ugly.

--------------------
"A film made in 2008 isn't going to look like a TV series from 1966 if it wants to make any money. As long as the characters act the same way, and the spirit of the story remains the same then it's "real" Star Trek. Everything else is window dressing." -StCoop


Registered: Jun 2000  |  IP: Logged
Reverend
Based on a true story...
Member # 335

 - posted      Profile for Reverend     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Reverend: Erm... The Phoenix was very much not a Starfleet ship.


quote:
In the TAS episode it was featured in, Scotty makes the statement ,"There's the old Bonaventure, the first ship to have warp drive installed." Scotty does NOT say that it was the first Starfleet ship w/ WD, but the FIRST SHIP. Period.

Thankyou Dukhat, thats what I thought he said.

--------------------
Dark Knight Adventures & Batman Beyond:Stripped - DeviantArt Gallery
================================
...what we demand is a total absence of solid facts!


Registered: Apr 2000  |  IP: Logged
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


© 1999-2008 Solareclipse Network.

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3