Seigfried, my supercilious friend, this is not a simple quandary of warp speed versus distance that can be comfortably overlooked, this is a serious flaw.

This Earth to Qo'Nos thing cannot be ignored like other such errors in distance and warp factor that may have happened far off in deep space, we're talking about THE major Trek protagonist for 30 years residing on a world precisely in our back yard. How the hell could either the Feds or the Klingons establish large, sprawling empires across half the qudrant when their two homeworlds are virtually touching each other. I mean, Qo'Nos's star and our sun would be virtually a binary star system, being like a quarter of the distance to our real, nearest star Alpha Centauri. Your attempts to make me look dumb just because I severely question this is laughable.

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When EVER has there been such a monumentally absurd error as this one involving the distance between Earth and Qo'Nos?

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Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. How about the Enterprise limping to Regula One in a short amount of time on IMPULSE power? Star Trek III: The Search for Spock. How about it only taking a couple days to get from Earth to the planet Genesis? Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. Earth is only about a day away from the boundry of the UFP with the Romulan and Klingon Empires. Then the planet Nimbus III at that intersection is only a few hours away from the galactic core. That's just the movies. Want to consider the TNG and DS9 episodes that show the Enterprise-D and Defiant making routine trips from "the frontier" to Earth? There's quite a few of those episodes.

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This Earth to Qo'Nos thing cannot be ignored like other such errors in distance and warp factor that may have happened far off in deep space, we're talking about THE major Trek protagonist for 30 years residing on a world precisely in our back yard. How the hell could either the Feds or the Klingons establish large, sprawling empires across half the qudrant when their two homeworlds are virtually touching each other. I mean, Qo'Nos's star and our sun would be virtually a binary star system, being like a quarter of the distance to our real, nearest star Alpha Centauri. Your attempts to make me look dumb just because I severely question this is laughable.

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And by that same token, DS9 is right outside the Sol System as is Q'onos, Romulus, and the Galactic Core among others.

[Editted after anger subsided. Red Admiral, check your private messages.]

[ August 17, 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]

Based on my limited understanding of ancient sea history, humans first learn how to navigate the oceans close to shore. As their abilities and confidence grew, they traveled further and made land on nearby islands. Sails were invented. Humans went even further to more distant islands.

If we apply this pattern to space flight, humans in the 20th century are learning the basics of navigating the shores of a vast ocean. Overlapping the history of Star Trek onto real history in the early 21st century, humans engineered the warp drive. This drive, like the sail, gave humans the ability to travel to the nearest islands and, eventually, islands even further out.

The problem that exists is that at the beginning of the warp drive age, humans were tens of thousands of light years away at the galactic rim. This would be equivalent to saying that our ancestors had traveled from Indonesia to Easter Island within a few years of the invention of the sail. The actual time is on the order of centuries.

I don't discount the possibility of ships traveling the vastness of space to planets and stars. I just think that this will occur on the order of centuries or thousands of years. (The first mission to Mars will come after I am dead, perhaps in the mid to late 21st century. Not earlier. There are many challenges to be solved.) Looking at our history, I am not so disappointed in the space program. We are just beginning. I wonder if our earliest ancestors thought the explorations of the sea were expensive and not productive to society. This thought may have existed as far back as that. Knowing this, I am less anxious about us getting deeper into space. I know we will.

Returning to Star Trek, I believe the writers should cut out as much science and technology as they can. In their place, they should write more character exposition. They only have 45 minutes to tell a story. These minutes should be used in the telling of a story about people with technology written into the background, as on Farscape.

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: targetemployee ]

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(The first mission to Mars will come after I am dead, perhaps in the mid to late 21st century. Not earlier. There are many challenges to be solved.) Looking at our history, I am not so disappointed in the space program. We are just beginning. I wonder if our earliest ancestors thought the explorations of the sea were expensive and not productive to society. This thought may have existed as far back as that. Knowing this, I am less anxious about us getting deeper into space. I know we will.

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no no no no no No No NO NO

The first mission to Mars will happen within twenty-five years at the max. If the project was started TODAY, then we could have people walking around on the Martian surface within ten or twelve years.

And all with TODAY'S technology. No fusion drives or anything remotely future available. Chemical engines, a heavy launch vehicle (shuttle or Saturn V derived), etc. Once again, I plead with you to read The Case For Mars. You will be utterly convinced after you read it. Or visit:

www.marssociety.org

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Originally posted by The Red Admiral:
Seigfried and Ryan: Are you both quite insane?

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Nothing like an ad hominem attack to get things off on the right foot.

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When EVER has there been such a monumentally absurd error as this one involving the distance between Earth and Qo'Nos?

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Siegfried covered a few rather nicely. Most relevantly, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier and the galactic core jaunt makes a four-day Kronos trip look like small potatoes.

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I find it quite disturbing that you have an alarming and acerbic fervour to leap on, and to attrack and patronize ANYONE who says anything against Akiraprise, it seems - as if I, and others who share my concerns were a minority.

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You are, according to most polls at popular Star Trek websites. On TrekWeb.COM, for instance, a poll of 5444 respondents yielded 84% approval of Enterprise. The fact is that most people do like what is known about Enterprise thus far. Even most fans who don't like the design of the ship itself like other aspects of the idea.

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Seigfried, my supercilious friend, this is not a simple quandary of warp speed versus distance that can be comfortably overlooked, this is a serious flaw. This Earth to Qo'Nos thing cannot be ignored like other such errors in distance and warp factor that may have happened far off in deep space, we're talking about THE major Trek protagonist for 30 years residing on a world precisely in our back yard. How the hell could either the Feds or the Klingons establish large, sprawling empires across half the qudrant when their two homeworlds are virtually touching each other. I mean, Qo'Nos's star and our sun would be virtually a binary star system, being like a quarter of the distance to our real, nearest star Alpha Centauri. Your attempts to make me look dumb just because I severely question this is laughable.

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I don't remember anyone making such an attempt. However, it is rather hypocritical to overlook equally significant errors in all other Star Trek's but Enterprise. It makes you appear as though you're searching for a reason to dislike the show, grasping at anything to hate, no matter how insignificant. When Voyager began, were you in an uproar because a seventy-year trip home contradicted the well-established warp scale from "That Which Survives" (TOS) and The Final Frontier? The original series was quite clear that warp drive was in the range of several thousand times the speed of light. By your logic, do you object to all later Star Trek's for contrdicting it?

I'm guessing the answer is no... because you don't apply the standard universally. You don't want to like Enterprise, and to hell with anything that might sound good about it; after all, the warp scale problem is crucial to enjoyment of the show. I know I watch Star Trek for technobabble, and couldn't care less about entertainment.

In reality, Star Trek always shortens travel times for dramatic neccessity. Earth is a week away from all known frontiers of a Federation spanning 8,000 light years. Did you complain when "The House of Quark" established that Kronos was roughly one day away from Deep Space 9, allegedly across the Federation?

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If in the second episodes of 'Enterprise' it was established that Romulus is only 3 days away at warp 4.5, would it be just as acceptable to you??

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Honestly, would you prefer the neccessity of hunkering down for a two-month trip every time the ship wants to reach a planet? It'd be great fun to watch them explore two strange new worlds a year.

--SATO: "Captain, we're receiving a distress call from a civillian transport ten light years away."
--ARCHER: "Set course, Lieutenant, maximum warp."
--MAYWEATHER: "Aye, sir, we'll be there in two months."
--ARCHER: "Thank god, we'll just make it in time."

I'll gladly accept four days to Kronos, thanks.

[ August 18, 2001: Message edited by: Ryan McReynolds ]

I also publicly, and humbley submit a similar apology to Ryan McReynolds for unwarranted criticism and any petty remarks I may have made.

I consider Flare a friendly place, and consider myself amongst friends, and do not wish to stoop to a level of petty squabbling and cheap insults. That is not me.

Whatever we all think of 'Enterprise' (and Seigfried, you will probably fall of your chair when I tell you I am actually looking forward to it, gripes aside), I don't want any feuds with anyone. I'd like to think we are ALL intellectually beyond that. So I offer a truce to end it all now.

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Originally posted by The Red Admiral:
Yes, I may be guilty of having an unpopular opinion.

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There's nothing wrong with having an unpopular opinion.

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I also publicly, and humbley submit a similar apology to Ryan McReynolds for unwarranted criticism and any petty remarks I may have made.

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Nor do I think that the ST5 idea of having Nimbus III within a day or two from Earth is objectionable at all, even at Okudaic warp speeds. It's just the galactic core thing that sounds dubious - but then again, everybody was under the spell of a madman at that point, or humoring the said madman, so we might not get entirely truthful statements from that movie.

Bajor being less than a week away from Earth also fits the Okudaic bill - it's the earlier definitions of "frontier" that jar against Okudaic speeds and throw off our estimates.

As for TNG contradicting the TNG scale, sure. It's just that in some episodes, it also supports the scale, at least roughly. Both TNG and ENT would seem to work from the premise that there exists a scale, and that speed/distance/travel time references can be made to fit that scale unless the carrying of the plot forbids this.

And when the plot requires the scale to be ignored, then we have to start speaking warp highways or time dilation or stardate oddities or deliberately falsified logs or whatever floats our boats.

In contrast, TOS and DS9 never really made the pretense that a warp scale would exist. VOY sometimes toyed with the idea, mainly in the basic premise of a seven-decade travel time, but usually ignored it. ENT seems to care, enough to give us "Neptune and back", even though it also gives us an immediate contradiction.

http://www.calormen.com/Star_Trek/warpcalc/

Nifty things:
- Type in a Warp factor and it'll give you a velocity.
- Type in a velocity and it'll give you a Warp factor.
- There's a spiffy graph of v vs. W showing several popular equations.