quote:MeGotBeer, do you also believe in a USS Lollipop, since Riker said such ship exists?
Since, as is obvious to anyone who has ever seen The Arsenal of Freedom, Riker created a ship out of thin air in a deceit to see if he was actually speaking with his friend Paul Rice, no, I don't believe such a ship exists.
quote:He could have been JOKING and no one thought it was funny
Are we speaking re: Lolipop or Yamato? Givin that they were lost in such an unknown area, and their reactions to another ship, no, it's quite clear to everyone Riker wasn't joking. And if he was, why didn't Worf, Data, or Picard contradict him?
quote:Also, just because YOU believe one registry doesn't make it anymore canon then the other. Like I said, you are far from being in charge of what is canon.
Ah, but you are? I don't claim to be in charge of canon, I just make a better case for why NCC-1305-E is canon then you do.
quote:You want to believe it's NCC-1305-E, then fine, believe, but don't throw a hissy fit when no one wants to follow your lead.
I do believe its NCC-1305-E. You're the one throwing the hissy fit. Actually, since I seem to be the only person sticking up for the 1305-E theory, you're a coward, joining in an attack on a lone speaker. Nyah-nyah-nyah. And if you honestly believed in "not throwing hissy fits", you wouldn't have made the above post.
quote:We think it's NCC-71807, so leave it at that.
Difference is, of course, that you're wrong, and I'm right.
quote:If the NCC-7xxxx was spoken as the correct registry, then I would assume that the NCC-1305-E was changed for some reason.
And what if dialog states that 71807 was the number chosen all along since the ordering of the ship, to the construction, to the launching, to commissioning, and finally destruction. And the 1305 never crossed anyone's mind and the 1305 belonged to some other name in the past and there has never been -A, -B, -C, -D, and -E.
I personally believe that Riker is mistaken somehow and the crew know this. They've just gotten tired of trying to correct Riker so many times, they feel it's useless and just leave him be to his own stupidity. Maybe Riker once had a dream about the Yamato and 1305-E was her number in that dream and he confused it for actuality. Or perhaps he's been reading a lot of mission reports on other ships and just confused name and number with Yamato and a real 1305-E that does exist. There are many explanations for what seem like mistakes that were made throughout Trek.
quote:Originally posted by MeGotBeer: The Yamato's registry is not contradicted by dialogue. It is contradicted by an Okudagram.
That's right, and you still haven't explained why dialogue takes priority over Okudagrams. They are both canon, and that is why we must turn to other sources. Not because Okuda is the god of canon, not because we don't want the registry to be NCC-1305-E, and not because we want to be difficult. What makes dialogue more canon than anything else? Unless you can explain this train of thought, the rest of us continue to make the logical assumption that they are equally valid... and I think by now I've established that if they are equally valid, then another source must be consulted.
Do you have a reason for accepting dialogue over anything else? I've already shown the arguement that visual evidence could be more relevant than spoken words because of the inherrent fallibility of people -- solely for explanatory purposes, I might add -- but I have yet to see any justification for the opposite. It seems as though you prefer dialogue for no reason other than wanting to. If that is the case, you can't possibly be surprised that other people don't follow your standard...
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As to the idea that my theory doesn't "hold water"... I suspect that any ship is identified by it's "real" registry, officially. So, even the E-D is "actually" something like NCC-71701, or whatever, as far as SF is concerned. The only time a captain could choose to switch to a suffixed registry is when the ship is first launched, or when it happens to be in spacedock. Sometime when painting new numbers on the hull isn't a big deal.
As for the E's, I suspect, by "default", they put on the suffixed registry. Perhaps SF won't even allow a captain of an E not to use the suffix. But my theory is that, on any other ship, the captain can go either way if they want to, and if SF allows it at the time.
quote:Originally posted by MeGotBeer: Within the self-contained "world" of Star Trek, however, the evidence leans towards the NCC-1305-E registry as opposed to the NCC-7xxxx.
And within the self-contained "world" of Star Trek, the evidence leans towards the Celsius scale being different from ours. And time flowing at a different rate. And four wars involving Khan spanning centuries.
On the one hand, this is evidence that dialogue is often wrong. On the other hand, this could be evidence that Star Trek is best treated as fiction. One possibility that you haven't considered is that Riker never actually said 1305-E, in a revised fictional universe. The term often used is "retconning," the act of changing something after the fact and pretending the error never existed.
Since we have no frame of reference to Star Trek other than as a fictional creation, there is nothing inherrently wrong with editing that creation, even if the editor is one's own mind. I'm sure most people would prefer to mentally edit the lines regarding the Eugenics Wars than assume that everyone who's ever mentioned them is a moron. Likewise, Riker is probably a fine officer, and "actually" said NCC-71807... but the thirtieth-century historian watching the visual logs wrote it down wrong when researching for that episode of the popular holodrama.
Because of the fictional context, there are literally an infinite number of ways to solve problems of contradiction. And before one accuses me of using retconning to justify any change in the fictional universe I might point our that there is a vast difference between a creator correcting one's own mistake and changing things that were never contradictory to begin with.
Just rpoviding another long-winded alternative solution to the problem. I don't even know which solution I like best; it is canon that Riker said 1305-E, just as canon as the ship's actual registry being 71807. I'm willing to grant the possibility of Riker being (a) wrong or (b) joking/mocking/making a statement... but I'm leaning towards pretending he really said 71807 and it got garbled in the transmission.
If there is conflicting dialogue, it's one thing to make rational decisions regarding which is correct, and which is not. In this case, however, there's not conflicting dialogue ... there's just Riker's statement. Many times dialogue can be brushed off as "they're getting confused", but again, this doesn't work for Riker's statement (namely because: Picard, Worf, and Data, all seem to think he's correct).
Look, I'm just saying why I think NCC-1305-E is correct. I'm not into the "Revised" idea where we re-edit episodes. It'd be nice ... (get rid of Voyager and Wesley Crusher...) but it's not something we can do.
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The question is, did anyone object when 71807 appeared on their computer monitor? "Sir, why isn't the Yamato's registry the same as the one given by Commander Riker a few months ago?" "Ensign, Riker was high then." f the Yamato were to some how come up again, it's registry would be the one from "Contagion." It's that simple. Okuda and most of the ST fans believe it to be 71807. Just a little point. Second, Worf probably knew the Yamato's lay out because it was GALAXY CLASS. Riker, Picard, and everyone else probably knew the layout. Worf just was the first to speak out. And if Geordi and Picard looked at the the monitor (or if they looked at it at all during the episode, I don't remember), why didn't they object if Picard knew Varley and the ship so much? Plus, we saw the Yamato blow up in "Contagion." Didn't 71807 appear on the hull? And, isn't it possible Riker made a mistake in identifying the ship? Maybe he mistook 71807 for 1305-E in some way. It's possible. Maybe he dosen't have 20/20 vision.
quote:I'm not into the "Revised" idea where we re-edit episodes. It'd be nice ... (get rid of Voyager and Wesley Crusher...) but it's not something we can do.
Actually, it is possible and has been done in the past. In "The Battle" written dialog was that the Stargazer was Constitution class and was filmed with Wesley, Geordi, and Data saying that. Later, it was redubbed with them saying Constellation class. We can easily have Frakes put on the season 1 uniform and saying his line over from "Where Silence has Lease" substituting 71807 for 1305-E. The background can be CGI if it needs to be recreated.
But it was redubbed before the episode was aired. That's a really big difference. If NCC-1305-E had been redubbed BEFORE it aired, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And Frakes is WAAAAY to fat to fit in the Season 2 uniform.
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SW fans have had that problem for years now. Did Greedo shoot Han first? Has Greedo always shot Han first, and our pictures was just dirty?
"Data doesn't object to the registry. I mean, this is Data we're talking about. "
And, to overuse the counter argument, Data didn't object to a planet have a temperature 19 degrees below absolute zero.
And, in the "Riker's an idiot and everyone's too scared to correct him", in this very same episode, Riker calls O'Brien a lieutenant. Obviously, Riker was high on some kind of crazy space smack when this episode was made, and he was talking all kinds of mad stuff.
-------------------- Yes, you're despicable, and... and picable... and... and you're definitely, definitely despicable. How a person can get so despicable in one lifetime is beyond me. It isn't as though I haven't met a lot of people. Goodness knows it isn't that. It isn't just that... it isn't... it's... it's despicable.
Now, which one should be believed? Well, obviously OKUDA and everyone else at Paramount has said that the 1305-E is a mistake. 71807 is the official registry to them. Obviously this makes the 71807 the more believeable canon registry then the 1305-E, regardless of the way it was shown (computer school, dialogue, ship models, etc...)
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