Topic: 'Terra-forming'.. (Or: 'Better Living Through Breathing an Oxygen/Nitrogen Mixture')
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I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
Actually, the novelization of Star Trek II, and the very behaviors of the Velaran terraformers in 'Home Soil' state that the Federation is very careful about disrupting natural ecosystems.
Of course, the novel and all the concepts contained within could be written off as non-canon, especially since it would also be very necessary to not have any lifeforms present lest they disrupt the Genesis matrix.
But if you were terraforming a planet with a preexisting microbial life structure, would it actually make it more difficult for you? If they ate plants and released methane, you might be uncomfortable there, and it would require a lot of fun to try and destroy every microbe on a planet, especially if they lived under oceans or underground. And the Federation really doesnt seem the type to go on such a great Tribble hunt massacre. Why risk all that trouble?
OnToMars
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Member # 621
posted
Good point. But Federation terraforming guidelines don't apply to TrekMars. We saw government style missions in the 2030's (even though it doesn't fit with the rest of Trek, thanks again Voyager) and the first colonists landed in 2103. Before 2103, there was no warp drive or first contact. Afterwards, we were still at the absolute beginning of the Federation era. In the mindset of Cochrane's generation and the generations, before, terraforming Mars would make a lot of sense.
Regarding life: Present day humanity has enough moral trouble with killing off an entire species of a horrible disease. I don't think the hypermoral Federation would be doing it on a regular basis.
And to bring the Trek speculation back to Mars; there is a lot of debate over whether or not we should terraform Mars since we don't know whether there are or have been lifeforms. It is a major theme in the Mars Trilogy. Though the debate in real life is not so evenly distributed in the book, it is the general consensus that we should bring life to Mars and make it like Earth if it never was. And if it was, make it like it once was.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
capped
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Member # 709
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Yeah, i wouldnt feel bad about raping Mars. But it would suck to have all that beautiful red scenery interrupted by ugly white clouds and green plants and blue water.
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This brings up an interesting question. Why bother terraforming Mars at all? Timo has already presented the Trek reason for not doing it. But what about here, in real life?
I'm fairly familiar with the various space advocacy movements, and support them, but to be philosophical about it, why do we need to terraform Mars? Or, to put it another way, why is a terraformed Mars more valuable than an...aresformed Mars? Because of the existence of life? Piffle, I say. Life is nothing. Just a temporary negentropic effect that's completely canceled out by the larger entropy all around it.
I forgot to add my devil's advocate tag.
Oh, and while I'm at it, my Liamism for today: Arseform Mars? Surely we have enough of those here on Earth.
posted
When I pointed out the temperature problems with terraforming Mars, I didn't pull those figures out of thin air. I used a formula for computing the temperature of a planet warmed by a star, radiating as a black body, and possessing an atmosphere. That formula, for the math freaks, is: T = 374 G(1 - A) I^1/4, where A = albedo (the amount of energy absorbed) G = greenhouse effect I = total amount of incident light (Sun = 1)
I used the same values for Earth's atmosphere in my computations; the only thing I changed was I, which varies at the square of the distance from the sun. That's how I computed the roughly hundred degree variance each way.
The formula comes from the book "World-Building", by Stephen L. Gillett. I recommend it to anyone considering trying to design a solar system from scratch.
-------------------- The difference between genius and idiocy? Genius has its limits.
OnToMars
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Member # 621
posted
Take that equation and plug in Mars-current values. Alter things like pressure and greenhouse affect (artifically produce hydrocarbons), thicken the atmosphere (aforementioned hydrocarbons, iceteroids, a slew of other methods), increase albedo (solettas), and you have a temperature habitable to humans. Mars will never be a warm planet by Earth tropical standards, but it will be habitable and bearable.
"I didn't pull those figures out of thin air"
Nice pun
"Yeah, i wouldnt feel bad about raping Mars. But it would suck to have all that beautiful red scenery interrupted by ugly white clouds and green plants and blue water."
Was that sarcasm?
why do we need to terraform Mars? Or, to put it another way, why is a terraformed Mars more valuable than an...aresformed Mars? Because of the existence of life? Piffle, I say. Life is nothing. Just a temporary negentropic effect that's completely canceled out by the larger entropy all around it.
Well, if you were a primate, you would be concerned with self preservation. But hey, its not for everybody.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
posted
Hmm... 'bout the Genesis effect and the lack of microbes...
It's been theorized that the Genesis Wave screwed around with time and gravity and such to accomplish its intented goal. What if the reason for needing a lifeless body wasn't so much philosophical and ethical as practical. Namely, that any pre-existing life could get caught in a time distortion field and evolve into who-knows-what inside of two minutes. And if they were intelligent, then you couldn't touch the planet at all.
-------------------- "This is why you people think I'm so unknowable. You don't listen!" - God, "God, the Devil and Bob"
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
posted
The novelization of TWOK went into a lot of detail about how, for planetary use, the Genesis matrix had to be programmed with first the amino acids and stuff like that that they wanted to develop. I'm definitely sure that, while intelligent life probably wouldnt come out of it (for the same reason Spock didnt evolve a new personality.. even though his cells grew rapidly, his mind was moving at real time) there could be some fascinatingly horrible things that could come from microbes: example : big orange worm-snakes. It detailed the researchers designing an ecosystem piece by piece that would work, which we have very little understanding of how many variables are involved.
quote:"Yeah, i wouldnt feel bad about raping Mars. But it would suck to have all that beautiful red scenery interrupted by ugly white clouds and green plants and blue water."
Was that sarcasm?
Somewhat.. I think that Mars is there for Earth's benefit, regardless of its microbial past. Unless we found something that really deserved preservation, it would definitely behoove us to make what we would of it. The term 'raping a planet' was used constantly by my tech ed teacher, and has grown on me. But from an aesthetic perspective, i love it being a 'red planet'
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OnToMars
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Member # 621
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Survival takes precedence over aestheticism.
-------------------- If God didn't want us to fly, he wouldn't have given us Bernoulli's Principle.
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capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
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Bringing us back to the question of do we need Mars?
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Self-preservation implies that there is something special about species. What would this something be? It seems that I can be concerned about my own survival, and that of my friends and family and so on, without caring one whit about humanity as a whole. Aside from a few poor saps who tended to get nailed to trees or shot or burned alive for their efforts, I don't think anyone has ever cared about humanity as a whole.
But mind you, I'm feeling rather bitter at the moment.
capped
I WAS IN THE FUTURE, IT WAS TOO LATE TO RSVP
Member # 709
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maybe this is a new can of worms, but..
quote: Weather modification net: System that controls and modifies the weather on Federation planets. The weather modification net was mentioned in TNG: "True Q". It played an important role in TNG: "Sub Rosa" and DS9: "Let He Who is without Sin", where it turned out to be essential for the well-being of the planets.
excerpted from 'Ex Astris Scientia: Treknology'
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OnToMars
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Member # 621
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Terraforming treknology of some sort. Anyway, viewing it in the context of real science for a moment, any technology developed for one or the other applications (terraforming or weather control) would entail a significant advancement in the other field. So Mars could be terraformed between 2103 and c.2470
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