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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » Rationalizing the AGT Enterprise-D Tech... (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Rationalizing the AGT Enterprise-D Tech...
Mark Nguyen
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So, its been twelve years since TNG ended with "All Good Things...", and offering us a supposed glimpse into tecnology that is arguably forthcoming in the TNG time frame. In theory, the following will happen:

-Someone thought it would be a good idea to strap a third nacelle, BFP cannon, and extra whatnots onto a pristine Galaxy-class ship.

-They've either mastered transwarp, or it's good enough to warrant recalibrating the warp scale again. Tooling along at Warp 13 is no big deal for even older starships like the Pasteur.

-Which rules out what the third nacelle is for, apparently.

-Installing a cloaking device on Federation starships is also no big deal. This is more a political change than a technological one, but still, it's fun to rationalize that the technology itself was never a real hurdle for the Feds.

There are some who think that the tech is dubious at best, given the whole thing could be a Q fantasy. However, at least part of it is borne out as the Q-less Voyager finale at least re-uses the uniforms, implying that the AGT future is at least possible. Now, granted Picard and company arguably did something different with Soran and the Klingon sisters in at least one timeline that resulted in the Enterprise-D surviving the unlikely fate we saw in "Generations", paving the way to uglification two decades later. Likewise, the reuse of certain pasties on the Venture as seen in DS9 implies that at least SOME refitting is happening here and there.

But as we know now at least, retrofitting old starships like we saw in AGT generally doesn't happen in Trek - Excelsiors and Mirandas are essentially unchanged on the outside for decades. Perhaps it's limited to the few expensive Explorer ships? The Ambassador went through radical, if relatively unbreaking to the silhouette, refits in its two variants, and of coruse we know about the Constitutions. So, the question today is: given what we know now about Trek tech compared to a decade ago, would the AGT Enterprise-D have still been feasible? If the franchise could be seen in-context in fifteen years, could we concievably see AGT-type GCS emabarrassing all who serve aboard them?

Mark

[EDITTED for grammar and accuracy]

[ June 22, 2006, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Mark Nguyen ]

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"This is my timey-wimey detector. Goes ding when there's stuff." - Doctor Who
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Dukhat
Hater of Stock Footage
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When DS9 started their Dominion War arc, it suddenly hit me that this could be the justification for the AGT Ent-D refit. Whether the war lasted longer in that timeframe, or whether Starfleet just decided to become more militaristic in later years, it might have been a good idea to start building "dreadnought" type warships. The Ent-D could have been a testbed prototype refit for the new design, just like the movie era Enterprise refit was a testbed for brand-new refit Connies to go into production.

Of course, the only thing a third nacelle would be good for is to generate more power to weapons (like that big gun). I don't think there's ever been a rule stating that the more nacelles a ship has, the faster it goes. If that were the case, then wouldn't all starships have like 6 to 10 nacelles?

As for the "warp 13" line, I think that was just nonsense implying that "hey, it's the future and we can go faaaasssster!!!"

IMHO, I think that instead of making the future Ent-D into a dreadnoughted, big-gunned warship, they should have made it look old, run down, with unrepaired damage and possibly minus the saucer section, since old Riker does state that it's now an old ship he was able to grab for himself as basically a memento.

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Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
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I never liked that line. Thirty years of service & decommissioned? The class is supposed to have a century-long lifetime as minimum. Dumb.

Why would a NACELLE be needed for power generation? Null program.

My problem is that that the "refit" doesn't really seem to DO anything. It reminds greatly of the kids who blow $70,000 on body mod kits for their Acuras & then leave the engine & everything else that matters stock. Looks shiny (to them, at least) but there's no difference.

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Sol System
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Crazy unwarrented judgement: This thread seems unnecessary. Why does any of it have to be "rationalized?" They added some stuff, and afterwards it went faster and blew things up better.

That aside, there's precedent for Enterprises getting radically refit after the period chronicled in their TV show.

(Also I guess someone could produce an edit where every exterior shot of the future Enterprise is actually the Venture or one of the other Galaxies with the weird cobra neck thing.)

((Also also, while it is very well traveled ground, storywise, surely the D's decommissioning was intended to be one more reason why that particular future was undesirable.))

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Ritten
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Kind of like the USNs flip flopping with the battleships. Downsizing and leaving ones self weaker has been a problem the US has done often, with TPTB showing the possibility for Federation.

A thrid nacelle could improve the ships speed and/or handling, depending on the advances in warp tech at the time. Using the third nacelle to create a more stable center field, allowing for more degradation to the port or starboard field to turn at c+ speeds. New ships would of course have this built in to the two nacelle design to put things back on an even keel.

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MinutiaeMan
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There are plenty of reasons why a starship could be considered obsolete enough to be decommissioned far before its intended end-of-life. Ritten already mentioned the USN's battleships; the aftermath of World War I would be a better example. The USN had a shitload of battleships and heavy cruisers on hand, many of which were barely ten or fifteen years old�but many were scrapped for political reasons to adhere to the artificial mass quotas imposed on each of the major world navies. Something similar could've happened with the 'D.

For example, the Galaxy class was developed at the absolute height of the Federation's confidence, pacifism, and power. The attitude was "bigger is always better," and there was no one to stand in their way. Maybe, in addition to the various engine and weapon enhancements, there were major developments in starship automation (like that apparently used on the Prometheus), requiring far fewer people to crew. Starfleet would absolutely prefer to operate less personnel-intensive ships, and retrofitting such a giant like the 'D would probably be too "expensive" in terms of resources, time, and effort. Also, one could speculate that the big Triple Threat of the Borg, the Dominion, and the Klingons would accelerate the trend towards more numerous smaller, heavily-armed ships, with a small handful of big battleships with really big guns to take out the large enemy ships.

As for the third nacelle... maybe it was added for redundancy? Maybe it was added because the existing nacelles couldn't support the more intense warp field to make it to WF13.

Who knows? I'm pulling most of this out of my ass, though it sounds mostly reasonable to me. The simple fact is that we have no clue just exactly why, other than BILC: "Because It Looks Cool!"

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Mikey T
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Yeah... that third nacelle was more like a "this ain't your Enterprise-D anymore Dorothy" when it made it's entrance to save the day and blow up those Klingon ships.

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Omega
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I kinda wonder if Riker didn't pimp his own ride, so to speak. Use it as a testbed for experimental mods, make the ship totally unique and shiny.

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AndrewR
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Cloaking devices: Relaxation by the Romulan Government after the Dominion War and the events of Nemesis? The Klingons had taken over the Romulan Star Empire at this time - so maybe they had no qualms letting the Federation use cloaking devices.

Decomissioning: Maybe the E-D was not necessarily at the end of it's life-time - BUT it was heavily damaged at some point but not totally destroyed - it was mothballed until a time when an Enterprise E was commissioned that was as revolutionary as the ship before it.

This could have happened at several points.

The Fight with Lursa and Be'tor above Veridian III... with the Enterprise heavily damaged but not destroyed.

The Borg invasion of Earth during the time of First Contact (with an E-D not an E-E).

The Dominion War - at several points.

Even the events of Nemesis - having a Galaxy ramming the Scimitar instead of a Sovereign.

OR something further on - Maybe when Picard stepped down as Captain - and Riker had moved on they decided to stick the E-D in mothballs out of respect for Picard's captaincy.

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Lee
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I hate to blow my own trumpet (oh, no I don't! Toot, toot!) but my Galaxy Refit for UP3 may have some bearing. I wonder if I should modify it to include alternate Nemesis events - alternate as in "never happened at all!"

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Captain Boh
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quote:
Originally posted by Dukhat:
Of course, the only thing a third nacelle would be good for is to generate more power to weapons (like that big gun). I don't think there's ever been a rule stating that the more nacelles a ship has, the faster it goes. If that were the case, then wouldn't all starships have like 6 to 10 nacelles?

Warp Nacelles USE power to create a warp field. The only reasons I can see to having more than two nacelles would be to use them in alternating pairs to decrease wear on the individual parts, or exparaments involving alternate warp field geometry.
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Mark Nguyen
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I figure that the third nacelle was added to balance the extra mass and volume of the BFG and all the other stuff they slapped on there. We know from various episodes that a warp field is somewhat interconnected on the shape of the hull, and breaking the silhouette by adding so much stuff, and all the extra mass (maybe the BFG is just really, really heavy) would require a third nacelle to create a powerful enough warp field to balance everything and keep the Enterprise-D as fit and fast as she once was.

We have yet to see a Federation starship larger than the E-D in the local time frame (The E-J is probably much larger, but there's a 500+ year difference there), so perhaps Starfleet is/was at its upper limit for size with the GCS? What if they've since gone to smaller starships since then not because of political or policy changes, but simply because it gets really tough to build anything much larger AND move it at any appreciable speed?

The closest GCS to reference - the Challenger from VOY "Timeless" - happens about five years prior to "All Good Things...", relatively speaking, and she's a stock GCS, without even the nacelle-mounted phasers seen on the Venture. This suggests that the Enterprise-D in that time frame is a limited or unique variant, or part of a recent fleetwide upgrade.

Or, like the fourth funnel on the Titanic, the third nacelle doesn't actually DO anything and is mostly for show...

Mark

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"This is my timey-wimey detector. Goes ding when there's stuff." - Doctor Who
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Shik
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So, like Titanic & sisters, they store all the deck chairs in there?

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Jason Abbadon
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Mabye the third nacelle alters warp geometry for other reasons- it could be just the thing for fighting in Fluidic Space or even useing the warp field to enhance the shields in some manner (re-directing incoming phaser fire via warp geometry?).

It could have a LOT of diffrent uses, but I think it would allow the old girl to sustain a high warp velocity for longer periods and thus "keep up" with the rest of the fleet.

As to the model itself, it's pretty dumb: the BFG Phaser overlapps the captain's yacht and the very front of the saucer's phaser ring- making it look very much tacked-on.
I've heard much fanboy speculation that those idiotic things near the bridge are phaser cannons and a super-sized torpedo launcher....(shudder)

The only really great mod done to the ship is the cool new impulse engine she has- I always thought the Galaxy's impulse engine looked a bit tiny for such huge ship.

In my own (Dominion War era) fleet of models, I have a dreadnaught Galaxy, but it does not have any of the dumb features- nothing added near the bridge, no extra "fins" on the nacelle pylons and it has no Galaxy "neck"- altering the ship's profile greatly and making the third nacelle unobstructed from the front.
...and an "NX" registry, of course. [Wink]
 -

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Mark Nguyen
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Incidentally, this topic came to me as I was in the Town of Vulcan this week on business. Lo and behold, their visitor centre had a ton of Trek stuff in there, and amongst the dusty shelves I found the Johnny Lightning mini-model of the AGT Enterprise-D, which I bought. Cute little thing, despite all the tacked-on obviousness.

The BFG overlaps a lot of stuff, but I don't think it goes over the phaser ring, does it? No big loss with the Captain's yacht, as it was not used anyway (and an interpretation could be that it simply pointless, or that they ended up using a runabout or something else warp capable that could be stored in the mammoth shuttlebay.

Also, someone was previously wondering what the ridiculous cannons were attached to - those ovals were established in the TNG TM and blueprints as starbase docking hardpoints that could be pressurized to allow much larger cargo in and out ratehr than using open bay doors, etc. If they went similarly unused, one could rationalize that they could pack support systems and infrastructure to mount those extra cannons, or whatever they were, into the empty space.

Mark

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"This is my timey-wimey detector. Goes ding when there's stuff." - Doctor Who
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