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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » Klingon Bird-of-Prey Wing Positions (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Klingon Bird-of-Prey Wing Positions
MinutiaeMan
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I'm starting a new thread to branch off from the TNG Remastered discussion, because I've got a few other questions of my own here...

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
I do seem to remember a story where the motor mechanism on the BOP model got stuck. Weren't all BOPs from that point onwards seen with their wings stuck up (at least until the CGI model was introduced)?

If they were using the original movie model, then I think that story makes sense. Jason is right; I don't think we saw a BOP in wings-down mode again until... hmm, let's see...

"Rascals" was partly reused stock footage from "Yesterday's Enterprise," but also had a new shot with the three ships in orbit in formation, IIRC. "Reunion," "The Mind's Eye," "Redemption," "Unification," and "Firstborn" in TNG, then "Past Prologue" and "Blood Oath" in DS9, all had BOPs with their wings up.

But Generations showed the Duras sisters' BOP only with the wings fully down. Could the model have been repaired/refurbished for the movie? That seems like a likely scenario. Either that, or else it was CGI. (Except for the reuse of the explosion from The Undiscovered Country, of course. *sigh*)

Finally, I would bet that a lot of the BOPs in "Way of the Warrior" were little expendable styrene models purchased and built specifically to create greater numbers in the fleet. They could've been whichever configuration the effects guys chose.

Now, I've got my own question, and the main reason for starting a new thread... what's supposed to be the significance of the different wing modes? I've heard all sorts of stories about the ship putting the wings down so the disruptors could be placed in "optimum firing position," but that doesn't make sense if the cannons were targetable anyway.

I'm also not quite sure what the difference was supposed to be between having the wings straight-horizontal, and having them raised slightly. The only time that makes sense would be for the landing mode, but in the original movies, we saw the wings raised much higher than they were in the TNG configurations. (I guess that might lend credence to the story that the motor got stuck?)

Also, am I the only one who things that the later-DS9 episodes showed BOPs with a different wing-angle than the original model? I've always thought that the Rotarran and its sister ships didn't have their wings as far down as earlier ships did.

Anyone have any ideas, other than BILC? (Because It Looks Cool) [Wink]

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Mars Needs Women
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First off, thanks for the comment about the BOP explosion from Generations being stock footage from Star Trek VI. I thought I was the only one who noticed that.

For WotW, there's a possibility that some of the BOPs(at least the ones in the background) could have been MicroMachines. I remember reading somewhere that MM's would sometimes be used as props for the shows.

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MinutiaeMan
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I've never heard the story about the MicroMachines, either. That would actually help explain why there some frikkin' tiny BOPs flying formation with the Vor'chas in WotW...

Normally I'm loathe to link to the DITL for specs, but they do have a good point about the tiny BOPs in their article about BOP sizes; they scale to between 28-35 meters long. They were only seen a couple of times in that one episode; the use of MicroMachines next to the full-size Vor'cha model (or maybe the AMT model instead) would explain that ridiculous discrepancy.

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Josh
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They re-used to shot of the Klingon getting tossed around during the BOP explosion from Generations in the DS9 finale, le sigh
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Mars Needs Women
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Actually I checked memory alpha, and no MM's were used as actual starships. They were used as figurines to decorate offices and displays. But hey, you never know. I also discovered something about the Excelsior MicroMachine, but I think I'll save it for another thread.
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Johnny
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The only time I know Micro Machines were used on screen was for the starship models on the roof of Starfleet Academy.

Wouldn't the models in WotW have been shot separately and composited together? That would mean they may have been rescaled. The mini BoPs that fly beneath the Vor'cha looked a lot more detailed than MM's to me, but then I haven't got a screenshot to hand.

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Reverend
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My memory may be playing tricks on me, but didn't we see the a BOP in DS9 (the one where Kor died I think) that changed the wing position to go to warp, ala Voyager?

It's not much of an explanation, but if the warp coils are in those "shoulder pad" looking things then it may be that the wings have something to do with warp geometry or maybe power distribution...pass, I think it's purely aesthetic, which, for a race that is all about chest thumbing and looking intimidating, isn't as implausible as it might sound.

It could be specifically designed to scare people.

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Malnurtured Snay
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Isn't it possible that the wing position serves a psychological purpose rather than a technical one? Frankly, the Bird of Prey looks -- to my mind -- fiercer with its wings raised.

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Dukhat
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IIRC, some of the background scenes of the BoPs were not Micromachines, but rather the BoP Hallmark ornaments, which were larger and better detailed than a Micromachine, and presumably easier to film.
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Daniel Butler
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MinutiaeMan - What's wrong with the DITL? He seems thorough enough...
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Timo
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quote:
I've heard all sorts of stories about the ship putting the wings down so the disruptors could be placed in "optimum firing position," but that doesn't make sense if the cannons were targetable anyway.
Well, we could say that having both cannon below ship centerline allows them to be brought to bear on a proximity target simultaneously, while a horizontal wing position would create cones of blindness to the sides for one of the cannon. And since the captains of Trek can't be bothered to roll their ships anyway...

But then we'd have to think up a reason for bringing the wings up to horizontal in the first place. Apparently, that's not the optimal atmospheric movement position or anything, because the ships attack planets wings down in ST5, "Once More Unto the Breach" and so forth. And the ship is perfectly capable of non-aerodynamic hover anyway, and has been since the introduction in ST3 - the only people who have bothered with wings-horizontal for atmospheric entry have been the Federation thieves who didn't know how to operate the ship properly...

I don't think we have ever seen a BoP at warp with wings fully down or up, though. So perhaps the wings help manipulate the warp field somehow, while doing dual duty as weapons mounts?

Timo Saloniemi

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Jason Abbadon
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I've never heard anything about any Micromachines used for filming (the MM KBOP's wings are far to thick to go unnoticed and are notoriously bendy).
A Micromachine would be obvious and far too small to accurately film.
As is the Hallmark Ornament.
This is the very best I could repaint a Micromachine KBOP:
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Obviously not good enough for anything onscreen.
I think they made a few overhead passes of the filming model and composited them in to represent the birdies getting blown up by the station (and the lack of any debris seems to confirm this theory- no damaging to the studio model).


The only toy I know was used in WOTW was three Playmates Vor'Cha cruisers (the mold of which is the same as the ERTL model kit) which were repainted and rigged to explode.

I think some KBOP shots were early CGI- particularly the scene with the tiny, misscaled ones flanking the VorCha. The KBOP that does the "sumersault-of-doom" after getting it's engines shot up was probably CGI.

As to whing position, the "attack confiuration" allows a greater overall arc of fire when combined with the forward torpedo launcher- sorta a triangle arc.

The "wings up" position does not work so well for that, but they are better for atmospheric flight -I guess- the KBOP's do just fine on their little Dominion base attack run with wings down.

WOTW showed a KBOP at warp with wings down (chasing the Defiant), so we know it's not required for them to be up while at warp.

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Timo
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Hmm... I checked out "WotW" when making my previous post, and the wings there aren't anywhere near the "attack position" although they do droop slightly.
...I think.

Timo Saloniemi

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MinutiaeMan
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Take a look at this screencap, though... The wings are clearly not all the way down (compared to the movies and early TNG), but I would definitely consider them to be in "attack position," myself. I think this was generally the standard position we saw most of the DS9-era BOPs in, from Dukat's captured ship and the Rotarran onward.

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Jason Abbadon
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Yeah- it's pretty far down though- and the only time we see that at warp (I think).

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