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» Flare Sci-Fi Forums » Star Trek » Starships & Technology » How big is USS Huron? (Page 5)

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Author Topic: How big is USS Huron?
Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Yeah, but Sternbach's an Excaliban- he's all about illusions and lies.
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Whorfin
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quote:
Originally posted by Masao:
The difference, I think, is in your use of the word "considerable," which suggests you give earlier Treknology more weight than I would.

Obviously, I'm taking the thread off track (or is that Trek?). My apologies.

Without further data on your estimates, the only thing I could do is to do my own deck placement analysis on your graphic ( such as http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2694976&postcount=5 ), and I would prefer to have your permission to do that (and would probably need higher resolution). So the 'clean sheet' approach in this case is to do deck placement based on window placement (window size can vary for aesthetic or structural reasons).

My own method is probably about the same as your own. I would keep the large size windows (think 10-Forward or 'picture windows' intended for unobstructed viewing) during analysis. Somewhere in the space between the windows are the deck plates, estimate appropriate distance from the floor (humanoid figures are a help here to me), calculate deck clearance and inter-deck space (0.3m?). As long as deck clearance is something in the range of 6.5-10 feet (i.e., 54% wiggle room) I think you are good to go.

If at that point you think the windows are a detriment go ahead and resize them (I don't think they are because one disrupter blast and they are gone whatever size they were, and the rest of the freighter a few minutes later).

For what its worth. Happy designing!

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Masao
doesn't like you either
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Screen grabs are better. Anyway, the windows on the main part of the hull indicate 6 (uneven) decks with some space above and below. If you line the decks up with those of Enterprise, you get an overall length for Huron of 200 m ± 5% (i.e., 190 m [my figure] to 210 m [Bernd Schneider's figure]), at which point this ship looks too big. So, I choose to throw out the windows.

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When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum

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Whorfin
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quote:
Originally posted by Masao:
Screen grabs are better. Anyway, the windows on the main part of the hull indicate 6 (uneven) decks with some space above and below. If you line the decks up with those of Enterprise, you get an overall length for Huron of 200 m ± 5% (i.e., 190 m [my figure] to 210 m [Bernd Schneider's figure]), at which point this ship looks too big. So, I choose to throw out the windows.

Which is certainly an option, but at that point essentially you can make the ship any size you want since you are back to no way to estimate the size (nacelles being less reliable and resulting in an even larger size). I would prefer a ship smaller than 200m myself, for the reasons I previously explained. But ultimately these come back to aesthetic reasons or based on assumptions about efficiency (at least in my case). But I also suspect we both prefer it when we can have a "fact" based Treknolgy, its just that we don't like this particular 'fact'.

The only other estimation method I can come up with is assuming the bubble forward-top is the bridge, estimate the size of that, and extrapolate from there. This seems to have been the technique you used at a young age to come up with an estimate.

BTW, the difference between Mr. Schneider's (214m) and your own estimate (190m) ends up being a 43% difference in volume. So even seemingly minor differences add up, just not aesthetically.

Ultimately though, since we have two clear sets of adjacent "window" rows (in as decent a side-shot as you can get from TAS), the the most reasonably "canon" estimate (whether anyone likes it or not) should be based on them. In my TOS 1701 deck study I referenced (whether anyone likes it or not) the result was that window placement indicated a variety of deck heights, which was somewhat linked to alleged usage. Since this is a freighter, and might be built to somewhat less ostentatious standards, its fair game to use the "wiggle room" different deck heights provide to result in a smaller size. The submarines I've been in were pretty tight to me, but people were on them for periods of time probably exceeding the runs these freighters would make. Pick some deck heights (ratchet it down to 6.5'-7' clearance for at least curiosity's sake), calculate some estimates, see what you think.

These TAS freighters all look very funky to me. Someone detailed them up in odd ways, and the Huron is no exception. My guess (as I think I expressed before) is that the "gap" beneath the "bridge" area is meant for another vertical cargo module (looking like what is seen in the lower-aft of the ship, which implies it is also modular), and the space between that might be capable of two side mounted modules, possibly capped by a larger bottom mounted module (similar to how people have envisioned the robot freighter as modular, with a series of irregular modules attached in various places). Add that to my list of things to accomplish in 3D at some future date, it looks like an interesting exercise. Adding all these hypothetical modules would "bulk" out the ship considerably and might reduce your aesthetic-size concerns. You might want to try a quick and dirty mock-up and see what you think. If it 'works' for you then your concerns over the result of the window estimates are vetoed.

In this case, looking at your work, going through the facts we have... the result has been that I've changed my opinion. I still think the ship looks like a small freighter, but the data tells us different. Its not just a haphazard collection of lines concocted for a children's television show. Its a clear (and within the limits of the media) consistent ship design. If it was meant by the designer to be a small freighter, that could have been accomplished by using fewer and smaller windows. In this latest screen shot, for example, we have the Enterprise's bridge module in the foreground and the Huron in the background and its not looking very small, at least if we assume a reasonable distance between the two ships. So, from that particular perspective, our "TAS MK-I eyeball" and the window placement estimates seem to be in agreement. So, as much as it sticks in my craw, and as much as I would like to argue with the designer over this, the facts are pointing the other way. To me. For now.

Whatever you ultimately decide will be fine. And, I'm sure over the next decade or two every one of the methods of estimating the size of this ship will be used on it by someone somewhere, and maybe they will even work up full deck plans (as has been done in the early days. But I've found over the years that a part of Treknology is finding an answer you didn't expect, and may not like, and finding a way to accept that. Sometimes one is not even sure if that is the "right" answer, but its the best one to be had at the time. Maybe this is one of those times?

Remember, if this was easy, the franchise would have done it already! [Big Grin]

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Is that a Matt Jeffries design? Those wacky forward pylon thingies with their weird shapes seem like his stuff.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Whorfin
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quote:
Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
Is that a Matt Jeffries design? Those wacky forward pylon thingies with their weird shapes seem like his stuff.

AFAIK, the conventional wisdom is that they were merely created by some animator(s) at Filmation. But the more I look at TAS designs, the more I suspect that someone of Jefferies caliber, if not himself, was responsible for them. There are underlying similarities to the TOS shuttle design that are not obvious as well as variations on the standard TOS design themes (which I think are usually interpreted as simplifications to decrease the workload of animating), and to me this seems to indicate that possibly something more than superficial copying was going on. But that is speculative. I would love to know who designed them, and talk to whoever it was about the process ('was Jefferies involved even tangentially?', for example).

If anyone has additional information on the TAS designs, please let us know.

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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I have a ton of Jeffries' sketches saved from the auction and I know that wacky zig-zag nacelle pylon is on something else he designed.


Gotta check.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Mars Needs Women
Sexy Funmobile
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Ooooo, can you upload them?
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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Hmmm...is Flareupload working?
I'll have to drag the images in to work (not online at home right now- lousy cable company!).
So...wedensday at the soonest.

Lots of oddball stuff in there- the NOMAD drawing, ringship and shuttle sketches and all the wacky configurations of the D-7 (like naceles up top!).
There's a great looking shuttle design (rejected because the complex curves would have cost a fortune to make full scale) with very Romulan looking upswept nacelles.
I like that one.

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the blind trek fu master
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They can be found here...
http://www.trekcore.com/specials/thumbnails.php?album=3

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"Trek is what is in your own mind, following a set of stylistic rules. There is no canon." — Rick Sternbach

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Jason Abbadon
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Yes- I knew I stole them from somewhere reputable.
We need Rev for this:
http://www.trekcore.com/specials/albums/sketches/STTOS_Sketch_MM_Emblem.jpg
That looks great.

Here's that awesome shuttlecraft that never got made:
http://www.trekcore.com/specials/albums/sketches/STTOS_Sketch_Shuttlecraft.jpg
Instead, we got the lamest trek design of all time- the shoebox.
The stylized landing struts on this remind me of the Huron's forward nacelle-thingies pylons.
I totally think the Huron is a Jeffries design.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Reverend
Based on a true story...
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^Oh how wonderful it is to feel needed...no really, I'm all warm and glowy.
 -

As for that shuttle, let's be realistic, if they spent the money it would take to build a full size mock-up of that design then the rest of the show would have to have been done with sock puppets and empty cornflake boxes.

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Dark Knight Adventures & Batman Beyond:Stripped - DeviantArt Gallery
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...what we demand is a total absence of solid facts!

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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Great job with those- you need to be doing stuff for fanfilms at least
-now do the shuttle, ya lazy bum!

I know there's the cost element, but if crap like Lost in Space can have curved mockup ships, trek should have had them as well, damnit!

Even if the shuttle were to turn up as a CGI thing in some New Voyages kind of fanflick, I'd be happy.

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Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering.
-Aeschylus, Agamemnon

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Reverend
Based on a true story...
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I already did that shuttle YEARS ago. Don't ask me where it went though, but it's probably out there somewhere.

And no, I have zero interest in fan films.

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Dark Knight Adventures & Batman Beyond:Stripped - DeviantArt Gallery
================================
...what we demand is a total absence of solid facts!

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Jason Abbadon
Rolls with the punches.
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You just stick to the "Adult" films.... [Wink]

Huh. I bet someone here has that shuttle if you posted it.

I've got a whole file on you.
occasionally I'm asked to give a copy to law enforcment for their ongoing investigations.

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