posted
I don't understand why in TNG it's implied there aren't many ships in Starfleet compared to DS9. Before you say, "they're CGI's Hobbes"... I mean 39 ships are lost and it's considered a huge loss. Then comes "Redemption" where it seems that there aren't enough ships for Picard's tachycon grid, plus some of his senior officers end of commanding some of the ships because there aren't enough captains?!
------------------ "Tigers are mean! Tigers are fierce! Tigers have teeth and claws that pierce!" Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server, sucks don't it?
posted
Well, the loss of 39 ships is significant, even if Starfleet has 3900 ships of that size. In addition, 39 ships equals somewhere around 10,000 officers and crew.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "People don't mind if you speak a subset of a natural language, especially if you are a child or a foreigner. (Except in Paris, of course.)" - Larry Wall
posted
What I meant was that if Starfleet has possibly thousands of starships, before the Dominion war, the loss of just 39 ships isn't that much in comparsion. Futhermore why did there appear to be a shortage of ships and captains in "Redemption"?
------------------ "Tigers are mean! Tigers are fierce! Tigers have teeth and claws that pierce!" Federation Starship Datalink - On that annoying Tripod server, sucks don't it?
posted
Probably because they were near the border, where there would probably be fewer ships.
------------------ Frank's Home Page "People don't mind if you speak a subset of a natural language, especially if you are a child or a foreigner. (Except in Paris, of course.)" - Larry Wall
posted
I'm not sure how this fits in, but it's possible that most of the ships in DS9 were probably recommissioned for the sole purpose of fighting. The war lasted two years plus there was a Klingon war just prior and a second Borg attack, so there would have been time to modernized and recommission a few ships. with trying to get crews, there was probably a draft in place or people just joined so they could fight, With Wolf 359, it was sudden so 40 ships were all they could muster up and crews were limited.
------------------ 7 alarm clock: "Do not touch me." Dilbert: "Then how do I turn you off?" 7: "Believe me, I am plenty turned off."
posted
In 2366, starfleet was in a period of relative peace. Therefore, the majority of the fleet were "scattered" and the only ship in the sector was still common. At worf 359 those 40 ships were the ones that were near SOL. Maybe starfleet wanted an armanda of ships to meet the cube than having only one ship engaging the cube. It could be possible that before worf 359 there were a lot of ships that could have engaged the cube but only one at a time. It maded sense to put all your forces at one location. What do other people think?
------------------ "We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy
posted
Well, I agree that during 2366 the Federation was in relative peace. Which would most likely make the Federation Council into a decision of limited armament. The Romulans were in isolation, the Klingons were "buddies," and the Cardassians were at bay, so why bother making too many starships armed to the teeth? Why bother to support a very large military personel?
------------------ "Life's a bitch, then you die" -USS Vanderbilt, Vanderbuilt Class starship
posted
Seems right since Q said starfleet were overconfident and were ill prepared in 2365. They judge themselves against the Klingons and the Romulans and they are nothing to whats waiting. Guess after that starfleet really did expand its fleet.
------------------ "We set sail on this new sea because their is new knowledge to be gained and new rights to be won" John F Kennedy
posted
Very few of the ships we saw in DS9 could be argued to have been built after the Borg encounters. They represent elderly classes (and have such low registry numbers that even those who don't think the NCCs are strictly chronological would agree there's something amiss).
It's possible that the big fleet was taken out of mothballs for fighting the war. But one could also say that the fleet was simply scattered across Federation space during TNG, so that it took several years for some of the ships to return to home ports (and in a 8,000 ly UPF, such travel times would not be unusual).
Loss of 39 ships clustered near Earth would then indeed be a rather severe loss, because it would take several months or even years to assign new ships to that vital patrol area (I think Shelby meant this when saying the fleet would be back up in a year). Similarly, 30 ships would represent a major commitment to a border starbase in "Redemption" during peacetime, when most of the ships would be in faraway exploration assignments - but in wartime, the same starbase could routinely have 100-200 ships in the vicinity.
One could argue that the Fed doctrine, pre-Borg, was to have a relatively small defense fleet near the core worlds, perhaps 200-300 ships available at a week's notice but just 20-30 at a day's notice. There would also be tripwire units near the borders; these would fight half-hearted delaying actions but not commit themselves except in desperate situations, the idea being that the inner defence fleets would have plenty of time to regroup after the initial alarm. When there was no alarm, the fleet would be scattered to explore instead of being left idle in starbases.
This would work fine against a conventional Klingon or Cardassian invasion, which would take a week or more to reach the UFP core systems (the Romulans would get here sooner, but they would be cordoned in more efficiently). But the Borg were way faster than Klingons, so there was no time for the fleet to regroup as planned. Out of the 200-300 ships-in-a-week, some 15% were destroyed in a single battle at Wolf when the rest were still en route. That would be a major loss to the 200-300 strong local fleet if not to the entire Starfleet.
posted
I've felt that it is also important to consider the manner in which the ships were lost at Wolf 359. 40 ships lost in a battle against a fleet of comparible strength is bad, but having them essentially vaporized within minutes by a single vessel without even significantly slowing it down is a disaster.
------------------ "What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity." -- Camper Van Beethoven
posted
Considering the SFT (Small Federation Theory), I wouldn't believe that it would take years for all ships to gather, but it would be a matter of weeks or months to get a fleet to fight the Dominion. The Federation just didn't have the time when the first Borg incursion occured or ships for the tachyon grid were needed. More precise calculations are still missing, but I think fleet sizes make sense, even if we assume that the number of ships in TNG and DS9 was always the same (a few thousand).
------------------ "Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities." Ex Astris Scientia
posted
I subscribe to the SFT, but with the amendment that the UFP also has isolated distant holdings that justify the 8,000ly figure. It also performs exploration in this deep, deep space. Sure, the short-range ships and a healthy contingent of defensive vessels would spend time inside or near the actual SFT area, but a percentage would also be out there exploring, years away from Earth.
Starfleet would be pushing out whenever it can afford the risk - that is, between major wars. The end of the Cardassian war would give the exploration fleet a "go" signal, after which Starfleet would be unable to mount a full-scale war for a while. This would be a calculated risk, balancing the benefits of exploration against the dangers of enemy attacks. "Q Who?" or "BoBW II" would give a "return" signal to the fleet, but some ships would have been heading out for nearly a decade at that point, and would still be on their way back at the end of the Dominion war. Most of the explorers wouldn't be all that far, and some could be summoned back within a year to justify Shelby's claim.
posted
Timo, I also agree with the 'going out' idea... I believe that from 'Encounter at Farpoint' the Enterprise D was on an assigned direction 'out' of the Federation... genereally in the 'Ferengi' direction but the several calls back to Earth like in 'Conspiracy' etc then the Borg threat etc... caused it to 'reset' its move out... and then by season 5 (with the Klingon/Romulan problem and 7 - with the Maquis, Borg and Cardassian problems 'heating' up - the E-D became essentially 'locked' in the Federation outer boundaries
We've seen other ships out there... what was that captain's ship from "The Sound Of Your Voice" called? They'd been out for 8 years... I expect - with all things being quiet the E-D would have been out there for at least 10 years probably 5 years out and 5 years back...
------------------ "Who wouldn't be the one you love Who wouldn't stand inside your love." - Stand Inside Your Love, The Smashing Pumpkins
posted
While 8000ly is still a lot for the distance between the farthest outposts, I could imagine this is about the diameter of explored space - where "exploring" only means "we have passed by here". In "Encounter at Farpoint", Deneb, "only" 2000ly away is described as the farthest outpost. In "BoBW", Jouret, the "outermost colony" or something like that, can be reached by the Enterprise in no time.
------------------ "Species 5618, human. Warp-capable, origin grid 325, physiology inefficient, below average cranium capacity, minimum redundant systems, limited regenerative abilities." Ex Astris Scientia
posted
There could be several categories of "outermost" - the outermost defence outpost, the outermost colony, the outermost research outpost, the outer limit of exploration. I think the 8,000ly diameter theory requires the assumption that some members of the UFP come from planets never visited by Federation starships at all! It would suffice for explorers from those planets and explorers from the UFP to have met halfway in between and forged diplomatic ties.
Thus, Deneb could the the fartherst reach of rotationward exploration by ships from the UFP core worlds, but at the same time there could be member planets rotationward from Deneb.
I'd think that the layers of "outermosts" would go, counting inward from any direction:
-Outermost places of which the UFP has indirect but detailed data (rumors, subspace telescope readings) -Outermost member systems -Outer reach of exploration by UFP ships and probes (not including extreme-range probes like Quadros 1) -Outer reach of Starfleet combat forces for offensive purposes -Outermost colonies, mostly undefended -Outer practical defence perimeter, including main Starfleet forces and fixed defence installations -The majority of member worlds and colonies -Core worlds -Sector 001 and its local fleet -Sol system and its defence perimeters -Earth and its planetary defences -The outer fence around the Presidential Palace in Paris and the pit bull patrolling the turf
The distances would vary from direction to direction, but the order of "outermosts" would not. "Enemy" territory could lie at virtually any distance - some enemies might only neighbor the most distant member worlds, some might have borders against the practical defence perimeter, while others might have embassies on Earth, their gardeners engaged in fierce border disputes with those of the Presidential Palace Gardens...
Printer-friendly view of this topic
