posted
Starship Design page 1003 states that the Decatur's saucer was from an unfinished Ptolemy class (Kepler sub-class) Transport-Tug. However the warp nacelles were brand new - the Decatur was the first ship fitted with the linear warp engines. So according to the authors who invented this class no ships were ever built at the TOS style specification.
However, you can draw whatever you want to draw. Your vision of Starfleet doesn't have to be the same as anyone else's.
If you're looking for more TOS designs to do then how about the following: Kearsarge class light cruiser (NCC-1500), the Fed NCL from Starfleet Battles, can be drawn either with normall nacelles or with smaller variants. See
It's nothing very special, but if the Constitutions are heavy cruisers, then there almost have to be light cruisers of some sort...
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
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On the Federation shouldn't there be " Starship USS Federation United Federation of Planets "? That is from the Starship Design Instellar Forum of Naval Power .
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posted
You know, I'd be very surprised if I were the first person to actually notice this tidbit, but I've never seen it mentioned before:
If you look at the TOS Tech Manual listing of the Constitution-class starships (and all the others, for that matter), you'll notice the description for the first batch of ships. "The following ships of the MK-IX Class were authorized by the original Articles of Federation of Stardate 0965." (Emphasis added.)
It seems to me that FJ considered the Federation to be a VERY new organization in the TOS era, assuming that he wasn't implying different Stardate systems -- and there's no reason for that kind of assumption. This might be reasonable, considering the ambiguity surrounding the operating authority of the Enterprise in the early episodes -- which might indicate a transition of some kind. (From his perspective.)
On the other hand... the date on the Romulan Treaty of Peace at the beginning of the book is dated Stardate 1200... which certainly doesn't indicate 60 years of isolation by the Romulans... (For reference, the Stardate of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" -- the first Trek episode with a Stardate -- was 1312.4.)
Gah, I don't know what FJ was thinking! But at the very least, this little quote gives us the justification for tossing his numbering system out with the other non-canonical data that doesn't suit our purposes, even if the ships themselves stay.
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
Oh yes, and we all know how accurate some photocopied pages that flash by for a single second on the computer screen and can't even be read without HD-TV resolution are...
You're the same guy who believes that some Admiral named Gene Roddenberry was in charge of Starfleet for close to 300 years, right?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: You're the same guy who believes that some Admiral named Gene Roddenberry was in charge of Starfleet for close to 300 years, right?
Don't be absurd. I'm not that silly. I would never believe in something so utterly ridiculous!
I believe that the Roddenberrys are a prominent family whose exploits as dedicated spacefaring men dates back at least as far as 2160, to the captain of the DY-1200 class exploration vessel V.K. Velikan, and who are noted for being dedicated Starfleet officers. By tradition, the name is handed down to the firstborn son of each succeeding generation.
That's what I believe.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
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posted
Not only did the class ships's NCC show up (however briefly), but more importanly perhaps, we also have the NCC's of the scouts Revere and Columbia, both Hermes class, and both NCC's in the 500s or 600s.
posted
What's with this "modern assumption" of main engineering being in the secondary hull? That was Matt Jeffries' intention from the very beginning, at Gene's insistence. The fandom conceit of main engineering being at the back of the saucer and the nacelles being self-contained units goes back to FJ, who did next to no serious engineering research, and certainly didn't think to try to contact the man who had designed the Enterprise in the first place.
--Jonah
-------------------- "That's what I like about these high school girls, I keep getting older, they stay the same age."
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The Kearsarge looks quite interesting. One of the few old ships that isn't a kitbash!
The Hermes and Saladin have to have engineering in the saucer section. The Coronado probably uses a saucer design similar to these classes, and the secondary hull is solely dedicated to shuttle operations.
There are in fact three related issues: 1. Where was main engineering in the TOS Enterprise. 2. Where did the matter/anti-matter reaction take place. 3. Where was the dilithium and what did it do?
As far as 1 goes, the intention was without doubt for it to be in the secondary hull, but there is contrary evidence from some of the episodes themselves.
There's no real evidence towards any answer to 2 in TOS, even if the location of main engineering could be pinned down there's no evidence that the m/am reactors are in that location. Isn't there an episode of TAS where they beam anti-matter into the nacelles? If so, then that could be standard procedure or a one off emergency measure. Must rewatch TAS at some point.
And as for dilithium, well that was seen in so many different locations in TOS (and even in the nacelles in TAS) that it is difficult to believe that it has the single function that it has in TNG tech.
If the Coronado has a warp core then it probably runs horizontally beneath the through deck shuttle bays, with the plasma conduits to the nacelles curving around the hull to reach the pylons. Jackill's shows the Oriskany (movie era refit of the Coronado) with the horizontal intermix chamber above the shuttle bays, but the shape of the hull in the Coronado doesn't really allow for that, and with the Oriskany the horizontal intermix chamber also has to connect to vertical intermix chamber and thence to the impulse engine.
-------------------- "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you, I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
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posted
The problem with the Coronado design (not Harry's rendering, which is excellent as usual) is that there's practically no room for anything like a warp transfer conduit that we're used to seeing and has been established as the general principles of warp drive. I suppose that the warp core itself could be under the through-deck level at the very bottom of the ship, but that strikes me as a very impractical and structurally unsound arrangement.
Consider that the through-deck by nature of the concept needs to go THROUGH the secondary hull. Also, any narrowing of the internal bay ends up reducing the space available to carry small craft and to maneuver them during launch and recovery operations.
Now, also consider that there needs to be physical supports to hold the pylons in place against the hull, and also needs to be some way to route the plasma conduits from the lower hull where the warp core could be and into the nacelles. (If you argue that the engineering systems are in the saucer, that only magnifies the problem rather than lessens it.)
Furthermore, I question the very need for a through-deck system in any Star Trek scenario, especially one in the TOS era or beyond. There's no need for such intense simultaneous launch-and-recovery operations, save for the direst evacuation or combat encounters which are both very rare. And in those cases, I think that the Coronado's available hangar space would be very inadequate to support the volume of small craft for a situation that would require such missions.
Therefore, I submit that the design of the Coronado as it is is both unoriginal (seeking to almost completely mimic the configuration of the original Enterprise), structurally unsound within the known engineering principles of Trek (and even allowing for a few of the exceptions due to TOS's ambiguity), and finally conceptually unrealistic.
I've got to go to class soon, but if I have time later today I'll whip up a diagram showing the maximum allowable hangar space and comparative shuttlecraft sizes, to show just how silly this idea could be.
(As a real-life example, anyone know why the naval aircraft carriers today are so huge? They need LOTS of space, first to assemble and prepare the aircraft for launch, outfitting, and recovery, and also enough space to store them when not in use. Even allowing for the increased automation of Trek's equipment, you still need enough crewmembers to maintain the systems and operate things shipboard. Not to mention enough crew to maintain the ship ITSELF!)
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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quote:Originally posted by Peregrinus: What's with this "modern assumption" of main engineering being in the secondary hull? That was Matt Jeffries' intention from the very beginning, at Gene's insistence. The fandom conceit of main engineering being at the back of the saucer and the nacelles being self-contained units goes back to FJ, who did next to no serious engineering research, and certainly didn't think to try to contact the man who had designed the Enterprise in the first place.
--Jonah
Then why does Jefferies' own cutaway, appearing The Making of Star Trek and which FJ did indeed use for reference, show the engineering room as being at the back of the saucer in front of the impulse engines---precisely where FJ placed it in his plans?
Answer me that one.
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posted
Okay, I've got a few additions: I took a moment to measure Harry's diagram, which I'm treating as the representative given that it's got the most precise resolution (therefore decreasing the need for me to estimate dimensions), even though some of the proportions may be slightly off. I don't think it's by much more than a few meters.
(Anal-retentive analysis follows...)
Measured from the inner edge of both clamshell doors (where it visibly disappears into the hull, I measured a distance of 176 pixels, which translates to 73.95 meters (at a scale of 238 px/100 m). Given the constant width of the secondary hull, I assume that the internal through-deck can be the full width available for the entire length. (I'll ignore for now any internal structural issues. The full width of the secondary hull is 55 pixels, translating to 23.11 meters at the same scale listed above.
A generous allowance of only one meter of wall space for the hull and equipment on each side (and ignoring the obvious curvature of the secondary hull towards the ceiling) provides a total hangar dimension of approximately 74 meters by 21 meters.
According to the dimensions provided in FJ's tech manual (which I'm using mainly because it was the authoritative text of the time, and the dimensions are perfectly reasonable) the TOS shuttlecraft was 6.9 meters long and 4.33 meters wide. Increase those dimensions by approximately one meter for both dimensions to allow for some clearance of movement, both for the shuttles themselves and for people walking among the ships. This gives a minimum allowance of 7.9 meters by 5.33 meters per shuttlecraft.
Assuming the hangar bay is a constant width for the entire length, the width of the bay is approximately 3.96 shuttlecraft widths. (Call it 4... I'm feeling generous.)
Now, you can't allow the entire hangar length, though, because there needs to be a launch/landing area closest to each of the doors. I was originally going to allow the landing area to reside primarily in the clamshell door area like FJ depicts in his floor plan of the Enterprise's shuttlebay... however, everything I remember about the TOS hangar operations imply that the entire shuttlebay had to decompress when the doors opened, and that a large atmospheric forcefield hadn't been implemented at that point. (In case I'm wrong, I'll include the figures for the additional space in {braces}.)
The landing area in FJ's shuttlebay was 11.4 meters long, from the outermost point of the clamshell doors to the approximate point where the hangar control rooms are indicated on the diagram. Assuming that the entire area is walled off in the Coronado and functions as a sort of "airlock" for the shuttlecraft before they launch or return to the hangar proper, approximately 2.5 meters would need to be subtracted from each end of the Coronado's hangar bay, for a total loss of 5 meters.
Therefore, a total of 69 meters of deck length is available for the hangar bay proper. {74 meters otherwise.} That's 8.73 {9.37} shuttlecraft lengths with clearance between included. Since you can't dock just part of a shuttlecraft, these figures have to be rounded down to 8 {9}.
Therefore, with a maximum capacity of 4 shuttles across the width and 8 {9} across the length, you get somewhere between 32 and 36 shuttlecraft as the Coronado's maximum possible capacity.
Commentary and Interpretation:
Although the 32/36 figure is the maximum that could fit assuming a clear shuttlecraft deck, this figure is highly unlikely given practical engineering considerations.
-- First, you've got to consider the need to move shuttles around, and that all of the shuttles are identical and in perfect condition. There's no accounting for maneuvering space in my calculations.
-- Second, these figures make no account for supporting equipment inside the shuttlebay for which craft can be maintained. Sure, a lot of the equipment can be portable in the advanced technological era of TOS (even before the "magical" equipment in TNG), but there's still got to be some need for maintaining shuttlecraft in a ship that's a dedicated carrier. And what about the possibility of a "machine shop" in the deck below the hangar as indicated in the FJ manuals, and used the turntable/elevator in the shuttlebay? Again, packing so many craft in lessens the availability of space for other equipment.
-- Third, the TOS shuttlecraft is hardly the most practical craft for non-generalized operations. There's no indication that the shuttle was armed at all (that I can recall), and its small size makes it highly impractical for any large-scale evacuation operations. In both cases, a larger craft means that fewer can be fitted inside the hangar. (For comparison, Masao's fighters would be hopelessly oversized: only 6 Puffins or 4 Penguins!)
-- Fourth, there's no accounting for internal structures necessary for the starship itself. You need structural supports for the mass of the nacelles (because even a strong shell is not a structurally sound arrangement), and power/supply/resource conduits, not to mention some way for crew members to get between the upper levels and the decks below the hangar itself. And this doesn't even account for the necessary warp plasma transfer conduits to get the power from wherever the warp core is located to the nacelle pylons.
To sum up, all of these issues combined convince me that the Coronado design is highly impractical and ill-conceived. As I stated in my last post, it seems the primary intent of this design was to mimic the appearance of the original Enterprise as much as possible.
There are so many changes that could be made to make this design better... mounting the nacelles from the lower part of the secondary hull (kinda like the Belknap class, I guess, though I hate that ship) so that they're closer to the (possible) location of the warp core; expanding the secondary hull to allow for larger hangar space and support; or even inverting the secondary hull so that the hangar is mounted on the very bottom of the ship and the engineering equipment is above that (although that would cause some problems of its own, most likely).
...So. Do you think I've beaten this topic to death yet?
-------------------- “Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do.” — Isaac Asimov Star Trek Minutiae | Memory Alpha
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posted
The Coronado's were designed (by Starfleet and by Todd Guenther) to re-use as many Bonhomme Richard components as possible. Complaining that it's the same as the Constitution is like complaining that the Nebula and the Galaxy share the same saucer.
The Coronado normally carries about 14 small craft, but can carry up to 25.
My earlier suggestion of a warp core under the flight deck doesn't work because one of the six ships had a drop bay as well as the through deck. As warp engineering control is in the enlarged section at the saucer aft it makes sense to run the warp core down the interconnecting dorsal (which must be where it runs in the Saladin, etc.) (If TOS ships have warp cores, of course ), with plasma conduits going along the top of the secondary hull and then up the pylons. As the neck is thicker than that of the Constitutions there is possible evidence to support this.
If you want to see a TOS carrier with more practical configuration then you can consider the Santee class.
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quote:Originally posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim: Then why does Jefferies' own cutaway, appearing The Making of Star Trek and which FJ did indeed use for reference, show the engineering room as being at the back of the saucer in front of the impulse engines---precisely where FJ placed it in his plans?
If you're referring to page 177 of the Making of Star Trek book, then it is in the secondary hull, with the power conduits coming down from the warp pylons behind a multilevel Engineering. What I see in the aft end of the saucer is a one level room with a turboshaft running directly up through the center of the room (if the saucer is indeed cut through the centerline.)
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