Shik
Starship database: completed; History of Starfleet: done; website: probably never
Member # 343
posted
The 15,000-person figure comes from page 176 of the TNGTM, where it notes an upper limit of that figure for emergency evac operations after conversion of all shuttle & cargo bays for triage & treatment centers. I would think that in a troop transport capacity, those shuttle & cargo bays would be used AS shuttle & cargo bays, that the single-person luxury quarters would hold 4 or 6 bunked roommates in a suite style, & that the extra room modules would be swapped out for troop barracks modules. Thus 6000 sounds about right.
-------------------- "The French have a saying: 'mise en place'—keep everything in its fucking place!"
Registered: Jun 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Toadkiller: My point is though that the troops on the QM were not going directly into battle. They would get to the UK and stage, build up and then take shorter hops.
Well I really don't expect the mythical ship we're talking about to put down on the surface and see a quarter million troops come running down her ramps into battle. Of course there would have to be some staging and preparation first
quote: I could more buy that if you wanted to invade a planet like Earth that you'd seize something undefended in the outer system and then make the main assault at sublight after the planetary defenses were down.
This is precisely how you'd have to do it. Either from further out in the system, or captured territory on the surface of the planet itself.
You'd have to establish a beachhead and then push out from there.
quote: My main contention though is that we've never seen the Federation do quarter million people level operations. They *should* probably work at that scale, but certainly that's not the scale Trek has been on TV. Maybe the Federation is much more sparsely populated that we'd think.
I think it's certainly a larger leap to assume the galaxy is underpopulated than it is to assume the show's writers have just lacked foresight in properly developing the logistics of that world properly.
Trek never really gets the scale of things right. For example, I just grabbed this off Memory Alpha: "Out of the 112 ships in the Seventh Fleet, only 14 survived the fight at Tyra and made it back to Federation lines." That's 98 ships that were lost in that battle. Given the scale of the losses, it's highly unlikely that they recovered many of the crew from these ships. So, assuming an average of 200 crew per ship, that was nearly 20,000 troops killed in one place in one single battle in a war that lasted for years. I could be wrong, but I don't think we've ever heard numbers like that in Trek, despite the fact that the were right there in the background.
Once you start thinking beyond the borders of a single planet, the numbers *have* to get huge. It's just that the writers weren't used to thinking in those terms, so the show never reflected them properly.
quote: Certainly help explain why entire planets all where the same kind of clothes and have the same hair style.
This drives me up the wall. I believe Bernd actually has an article about it on EAS. A poster on another board mentioned to me the other day that we can't actually depend on Trek to show galactic diversity properly when they haven't even managed to get human diversity right.
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Reagrdless of the amount of ability, it would take a massive amount of manpower, firepower, and support to take a single populated planet in "realist" terms. I mean, the US is having trouble handling the insurgency in a COUNTRY, can you imagine a planet?
Politics obviously interfere in those cases too, you can't just get a large amount of ships in orbit and just glass the surface. And the varying opinions and cultures of the Federation would make the whole idea of "world-capturing" a very lengthy process.
In the ST universe, it's possible, but I can only imagine how difficult it would be.
-------------------- "Its coming on. I just saw the wall move..."
Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Well I really don't expect the mythical ship we're talking about to put down on the surface and see a quarter million troops come running down her ramps into battle. Of course there would have to be some staging and preparation first [Smile]
Or hoppers.
quote:Reagrdless of the amount of ability, it would take a massive amount of manpower, firepower, and support to take a single populated planet in "realist" terms. I mean, the US is having trouble handling the insurgency in a COUNTRY, can you imagine a planet?
Well my view is that Starfleet isn't in the habit of "taking" planets by force, it's not normally what they do. From what we saw in the Dominion War their tactics mostly revolved around engaging the enemy fleet (hence heavy losses) and small tactical raids to disrupt the enemy's ability to make war by taking out shipyards, supply bases and long range sensor arrays. The point was made very clearly on the show that the initial strategy was "engage, retreat". It wasn't until the invasion of Chintoka that we even heard about them going after somewhere with a civilian population and it seamed once the orbital defences were down it was just a matter of delivering the troops to the surface. Now I know it shouldn't be that easy to win a ground battle (certainly not with the Jem'Hadar) but a defender's options are decidedly limited when the enemy can transport thousands of troops at a time to just about anywhere on the planet and have total air and space superiority. So in this instance once the strategic points are taken (power stations, comms relays etc) there isn't allot of pacifying left to do. Naturally all the Dominion troops will fight to the end ("jolly good" says the Klingon troops) but I imagine the Cardassians would surrender once they see they're cut off and on their own. So I dare say that pitched, planet-wide ground battles would be rare, if not unheard of in 24th century warfare.
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: Well my view is that Starfleet isn't in the habit of "taking" planets by force, it's not normally what they do.
You'll get off on the wrong foot if you continue to think just in terms of Starfleet. I wouldn't expect Starfleet to ever have the manpower to fight a ground war of any real size on their own.
You're conditioned to think of elements in Trek in the propagandic terms the show uses, my friend. "Oh, we're much too nice to do something like that." Bullshit. The Fed has been in a near-constant state of war since its very inception. You really think those have been 'clean' wars with a half dozen ships fighting on some border somewhere and then the issue's resolved? The Klingons, for example, seem to prefer to fight on the ground. All the time the Fed was fighting them, do you think they never had to invade worlds to push the Klingons back, or recover worlds the Klingons had captured? War has many undeniable realities and truisms, and one of them is "You can fight them on your ground, their ground, or somebody else's ground." I very much doubt they had the decency to pick unpopulated planets for their ground wars.
quote: From what we saw in the Dominion War their tactics mostly revolved around engaging the enemy fleet (hence heavy losses) and small tactical raids to disrupt the enemy's ability to make war by taking out shipyards, supply bases and long range sensor arrays.
Since Starfleet is essentially the 'space navy' of the Fed, this is absolutely the kinds of things that would be their province. Reduce the enemy's ability to fight at range and disrupt supply lines.
quote: The point was made very clearly on the show that the initial strategy was "engage, retreat".
Strategy that's worked for centuries when facing a numerically and tactically superior enemy.
quote: It wasn't until the invasion of Chintoka that we even heard about them going after somewhere with a civilian population and it seamed once the orbital defences were down it was just a matter of delivering the troops to the surface.
That was the end of the episode you mean I doubt very much that the fighting on the ground was so easily resolved.
quote: Now I know it shouldn't be that easy to win a ground battle (certainly not with the Jem'Hadar) but a defender's options are decidedly limited when the enemy can transport thousands of troops at a time to just about anywhere on the planet and have total air and space superiority.
Uh.... hold on here, boss. I'd already pointed out earlier in the thread that Trek is loaded to the gills with ways to disrupt sensors, transporters, weapons and so forth. Unless the enemy is woefully inadequate, it wouldn't be so easy at all.
As for air and space superiority, that's another thing that would take a great deal of time to acquire. Planets are very big places. And from the ground alone they can hurt you quite badly just by lobbing missiles at you.
quote: So in this instance once the strategic points are taken (power stations, comms relays etc) there isn't allot of pacifying left to do. Naturally all the Dominion troops will fight to the end ("jolly good" says the Klingon troops) but I imagine the Cardassians would surrender once they see they're cut off and on their own.
Hehe, this kind of thinking has led to quite a few military disasters in recent history. Once you've got boots on the ground, it's only then that the real fighting starts.
quote: So I dare say that pitched, planet-wide ground battles would be rare, if not unheard of in 24th century warfare.
We'll obviously differ in opinion here, but I'd leave you with this thought: When the enemy, or the good guys, captures territory, what exactly are they capturing? What claim do they have to a region of space if there's nothing in it? There's certainly a degree of strategic buffering and transit points and so forth to consider, but ultimately what will establish a presence is a planet or an installation. And if the planet is populated, that means it has to be taken - by force or otherwise.
Registered: Nov 2001
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And if you take a planet, you have to weigh in the local population. WHether they are against the enemy, or sympathise with them. And with ground warfare, you also have to consider that the enemy may be outnumbered when cut off, but even when their numbers dwindle, they can use geurilla warfare. For all you know, they could have huge tunnel complexes, and installations that which in the 24th century, could probably only be destroyed by a photon Torpedo. It would be like if Iwo Jima were one big planet.
Then again, a lot of the planets to be taken could just be uninhabitable, or have just a small but vital settlement. A lot of them may be just colony worlds, or mining settlements. Or, huge gas giants.
In the case of the Dominion war for example, I'd think that the dominion wouldn't have troops, or at least many of them on most populated planets, and only control them through space, or perhaps if they surrendered or signed a non-aggression pact. If defeated, they could probably just recall the few troops stationed there. I'd doubt that actuall ground combat takes place on more than 1or 2 out of 10 planets captured or lost.
-------------------- "Kosh, I'd like to introduce you to our Resident schmuck and his side kick Kick Me."-Ritten
"Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity". -George Carlin
Registered: Jul 2007
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I like to play around with the miscellany of Trek. The stuff in the background that should be there, but we never really see them. And I like to put together novel things because I think they'd fit.
I know a lot of you guys expect like ship parts and weapons and stuff, but I hope that you'll find this stuff interesting also.
=============== CHRONOGRAPH This was inspired by the Swatch "Infinity" watch. I don't think we've ever seen anyone wear or reference a watch in Trek, but I don't understand why they aren't there. Time is especially important to people, especially humans. And it's particularly important in a naval environment. This watch is primarily just a watch, but it would function to a limited degree like a PDA also. Mostly in the sending and receiving of messages and keeping schedules and such. It's connected to the ship's 'wifi' network that the PADDs are connected so, keeping it up to date and whatnot.
=============== LIGHTS
There's two different sets of lights here. The first is what I dubbed a "Hoverlight". I'm not a big fan of anti-gravity because I believe it's a problematic technology. From an engineering standpoint, if anything goes wrong with an AG-doodad, it's likely to go badly wrong. Still, I try to find less problematic ways to integrate AG.
This is the case with the hoverlight. I conceived it first as a piece of medical equipment, to give medics light to work with. But it obviously could have other applications. You can just activate it and hold it where you want it for a sec and it'll stay there, hovering and illuminating. Or you can toss it lightly into the air where it'll stay and brighten a larger area. Then you just deactivate it with a control and it'll lower itself slowly to you. Obviously, this would be a problematic device in high wind since it would just blow away.
The second is the wrist flashlight / beacon / lamp / whatever. The ones in the shows always look retarded. And seem especially so since they use big giant bulbs and we have ULEDs now. I went for a more robust, but yet streamlined and comfortable-looking version. It's got controls to adjust the beam, swap out the battery and an emergency button that would cause the beacon to flash at different wavelengths and probably emit a sound to help find you if you get lost somewheres (much like some emergency flashlights can).
=============== Vacuum
This is probably the most controversial of the set, hehe. But I don't buy a lot of the stuff stated in the show and I find Trek's crew numbers generally very small for the size of the ships. One way to account partially for low crew numbers and support what Riker said about the ship "cleaning itself" is to equip it with 'Roomba'-like cleaning robots. Conveniently built by the same iRobot corporation. They go about late at night tidying up the ship.
It ionizes the carpet fibers and sucks up the loosened dirt particles and incinerates them. No real need to empty it out. And it's got a little receptacle tray on the back there for anything it picks up that isn't dust or dirt/trash and doesn't get incinerated. If somebody loses an earring or something, for instance.
I hope you guys enjoy little bits of miscellany like this. I have ideas for more miscellaneous coming soon to a theatre near you.
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Did we see a vacuum before? I don't recall offhand, but I'm guessing it's some huge hulking SW:ANH-style thing moving behind them? Well this one's a little sleeker at any rate. I figure our Akira would have a few dozen of them.
As for things for the bathroom... maybe. I dunno though, since toiletries would be pretty personal and not really 'standard issue' kinds of things.
Who knows. Inspiration may strike.
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
Neat concepts! The vacuum looks like it could be a Cylon if it had a red light on the front.
About the LED lights, personally I hate those things. I have no problem with regular flashlights, but if someone shines a LED flashlight in my eyes, it's an instant headache. Even just looking at the light when shining it away from me makes my eyes start to hurt. I really don't know what it is or why, but I can't have those things near me.
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Well there might be something in the frequency, or perhaps some barely perceptible flickering that you're especially sensitive to.
Glad you like the concept, and I thought about the Cylon thing too, that's why I put the blue light. Hehe. To see if anyone would notice.
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted
These aren't just for my ship. They're for the organization Star Trek: Echoes, but obviously will be used aboard Ark Royal also for our players.
Design-wise, they're a mixture of designs inspired by real world awards, the very few pictures of canon ST awards I could find, great ideas by great artists that I've seen and hopefully some individual stuff as well.
I hope you guys enjoy them, and as always I'm happy to discuss the pros and cons of anything here.
(Note: The Letters of Commendation and their accompanying ribbons are translucent.)
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