posted
I haven't really spent any time in any Star Wars forums before, even this one here at Flare. But I'd thought I drop in and say Hello.
Hello...
Basically I want your thoughts and ideas. I have had no contact with Wars communities before, and as such, I have no clue what's going on in the world of wars, or any idea what the current thinking is. You see, I am a big Star Wars fan - since 20 years ago, and interest has been rekindled due to the new movies.
So, my first questions to you is: (and I apologise wholeheartedly for this, because for you, this is all an ancient discussion) - what do you think of the Episode I and II? What is the general verdict? Did you enjoy them, did they live up to your expectations? What do you think of Lucas's new take on the Wars history and the chronology of events, ie, the fall of the Republic, and the rise of the Empire?
For me, Episode I was a let down. There seemed to be things 'missing', like it was half a film, too limited in some way. But it did knit in nicely with Episode II, which I thought, was a great improvement. What do Wars fans think of AOTC? Was the spirit of Star Wars truly, and at last, rekindled here?
Secondly, I have questions on Star Wars itself. They've bound to have come up numerous times before, but like I said before, I've never been involved with the Wars web community, or read magazines, or heard any of the fans' feedback, I've been too busy with Trek... But this, if you'll indulge me, is to satisfy my own personal curiousity, and I'd be grateful if you'd endure this Wars forum newbie, and help to enlighten me, as dumb or old as these questions might be to you.
1. Is there any reasonable explanation as to why 3PO has no knowledge or recollection of the events in Eps I and II? For, when we see him in the later movies. (obviously Lucas couldn't account for this 20 odd years ago), he seems to A- have no idea that Luke Skywalker is the son of his creator, B- that he'd seen Tattooine before, that its his home planet, even though he says 'I'm not even sure of what planet we're on' in Ep IV, and C- that he has worked for Owen (sic?) before - as seen in Ep II.
-could it be due to continually having his memory erased? In that case, it would also seem strange that Owen has no recollection of him when he buys him from the Jawas for the second time in Ep IV.
2. In Ep V (Empire) the apparition of Obiwan on Hoth claims that Yoda instructed him, yet in Ep I, it is established that Qui-Gon is his teacher. Is this as oversight?
3. Who is Leia's adoptive father? Obviously we know that her real father is Anakin, but in Ep IV she claims that Ben Kenobi once served her father during the war (clone war?). All I can deduce is that she seems to have been adopted into royalty, and her home planet is Alderan.
4. I've always wanted to see Alderan, will it show up in Ep III do you think?
5. In Ep IV, 3PO and R2 say that their last master was Capt. Antilles (sic?). Do you believe this fact will be remembered, and at least recognised in Ep III? I think I recall the mention of an 'Antilles, from Anderan' from Ep I.
6. Is Windu meant to be of a different race than the other Jedi Humans? It is implied that he was Dooku's master, yet the age difference is obvious. Could it be because the 'grandmasters' have so much strength and knowledge of the force that that they could prolong their life? In that case, Obiwan is not as powerful as we're led to believe. He is quite ancient in Ep IV, which I can see only being set 10 to 20 years after Ep III. But also, as how I see it, the grandmasters disappear, or dematerialse at death, like Yoda. This happened to Obiwan also, that's why I thought he was a grandmaster. Qui-Gon, didn't, nor did Anakin (Vader), which is strange.
I think that's about all the questions I recalling having for now. Thank you for your time.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
posted
I'll take a shot at the questions, but I'm not touching the opinion of the movies part
1. Yes, his memory has probably been erased. As for why Owen doesn't recognize him, there are alot of protocol droids that look like 3PO. Also keep in mind that he gets copper body armor sometime between his leaving Tatooine in Ep 2 and his return in Ep 4.
2. Yoda apparently teaches all the younglings before they become apprentised to a Jedi. Thus, Oni Wan would've been taught by Yoda in his early years. And yes... it's a stretch.
3. I think it will. Bail Organa will likely be a prominent character too. Remember, Obi Wan "serves" Organan during the Clone Wars according to Leia. It's likely he will be a leader on a certain front and Obi Wan and Anakin will be serving under his command.
4. Antilles is the Smith of Alderaan. There are lots of people named Antilles. Bail Antilles as mentioned in Ep 1 was the Senator from Alderaan at that time nominated to succeed Valorum as the next Supreme Chancellor. The Captain Antilles that 3PO referred to, I believe, was the captain of the Tantive 4, the ship Vader boarded at the beginning of Ep 4. I don't think it'll be necessary to develop that. At the end of Ep 3, the Droids memories will be wiped and they'll be sold or something. Then, hey presto, they're back after 17 or 18 years...
5. Ep 2 establishes that Yoda was Dooku's master...not Mace. As for the whole disappearing thing... Lucas has said it will be explained. In fact, I'm guessing that it will be a big part of Yoda and Obi Wan's plan at the end of Ep 3.
I have a theory, but I'm not going to get into it. Basically, I feel that it's a skill that Yoda learns then teaches to Obi Wan. The ability to retain your identity within the Force after you die.
In the novels, though, Obi Wan eventually loses the ability to appear to Luke.
posted
Mark, if you go to Starwars.com they have a pretty extensive databank and a section called "Ask the Jedi Council", I'm sure it will help you bone up.
Personally I generally agree with the opinion that Ep1 was a bit of a let down (although I didn't think so until after I had watched it about a dozen times). AotC while still not quite the Star Wars that we all remember was defiantly a step in the right direction, having said that of course the first 3/4 of RotJ wasn't what I'd call quality Star Wars either.
1. The accepted notion is indeed that 3PO had his memory wiped, however I'm inclined to think that R2's memory was never touched. I guess I just always got the impression that he always had a better idea of what was going on than everyone else. As for Owen, his reactions and tone in ANH can be interpreted in a way that supports the fact that he has had some prior experience with 3PO Says: "-I suppose you're programmed for etiquette and protocol" Thinks: "Damnit, not another irritating protocol droid". He might have known who the droid was, in fact it's never really made clear precisely how much he does know about anything, except that he's aware of Kenobi and of Anakin's fate.
2. As Aban pointed out Yoda is supposed to be the Jedis' kindergarden teacher so Obi Wan would have been instructed by Yoda before being apprenticed off to Qui Gon.
3. Bail Antilles, you can see him in several scenes in AotC, including that last shot of Palpatine on the balcony. Apparently Padme flees to Alderaan with Leia and the Droids after the Clone Wars, given that Leia was old enough to remember her when she died it's likely that Padme lived there for several years. On a related note it's also possible that Obi Wan and Yoda took Luke to live on Dagobah for a time before settling him on Tatooine. "There's something familiar about this place"
4. Most likely. If you want to know what it looks like, Ralph McQuarrie did some concept paintings of Alderaan, they were published in "The Illustrated Star Wars Universe". Imagine Naboo's scenery but with big, smooth white cities sat in the middle of a lake.
5. As Aban said, Antillies is a common name for humans, including the Correlians (Wedge Antillies). Captain Antillies was just the captian of Leia's ship so I doubt he'll feature in Ep3 at all.
6. As far as I know Mace is as human as Kenobi or Solo and it's hard to judge his age given that he has no hairs to turn grey. Again Aban is correct, it was Yoda who was Dooku's master and at something 880, he's more than old enough. As for the whole disappearing thing (which apparently Anakin did do, we just didn't see it) Lucas has said that it will all be revealed in ep3.
I'm sure I recall Dooku referring to Windu as being his former master. Oh well, I must have got that mixed up with dialogue exchanged between Dooku and Yoda at the end. I'll have to take a look at the scene again.
I seem to recall, years ago, the Star Wars lore that said Vadar, as a youth, fell into a volcano whilst fighting in a duel with Obiwan. Does this have any weight, or was it mere fanfic speculation? Now that I think about it, it might been in one of the Star Wars comics I had from about the time of Empire, or I might have heard about it being from one of the books. But I know (or rather recall) virutally nothing about Wars beyond the 5 films to date. Half the characters you mentioned I've never heard of
It also seemed to me, that in Ep II, 3PO doesn't remember R2 at all. Again his memory must've been erased in between I and II.
Star Wars was big when I was a kid, I mean massive. But there was some 15 to 20 years of a lull period. Like 3PO, my memory has withered.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
quote:Apparently Padme flees to Alderaan with Leia and the Droids after the Clone Wars, given that Leia was old enough to remember her when she died it's likely that Padme lived there for several years. On a related note it's also possible that Obi Wan and Yoda took Luke to live on Dagobah for a time before settling him on Tatooine. "There's something familiar about this place"
Excellent observation. I never thought of that. But this Padme and Leia going to Aldaran after the Clone wars, where's this from? Does Padme/Amadala have actual basis in Wars lore? I thought the main characters and events of Ep I and II were invented and written then and there by Lucas at the inception of the films. The only rumour I recall from years ago (other than the fact that the Emperor was once a Senator called Palpatine) which I mentioned in my last post, is that Vadar fell into a Volcano, and was almost killed. This is the reason he wears an atmospheric/protection suit, or whatever it is.
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
quote:Originally posted by Reverend: 3. Bail Antilles, you can see him in several scenes in AotC, including that last shot of Palpatine on the balcony.
Actually, it's Bail Organa who is both Leia's adoptive father and the character (played by Jimmy Smits) seen in AOTC. See here for clarification.
(This of course gets kind of confusing because Bail Organa [played by a different actor] also appeared in TPM, though his scene was cut and a novel later implied that he was in fact Bail Antilles. See here for clarification.)
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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Cartman
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posted
"I'm sure I recall Dooku referring to Windu as being his former master."
After Mace sneaks up on Dooku and Jango from behind and pulls out his Bad Mothafucker, a mildly surprised Dooku acknowledges his presence with "Master Windu..." - he's merely being polite. Later, Obi-Wan gets the same treatment ("Master Kenobi...").
"I seem to recall, years ago, the Star Wars lore that said Vadar, as a youth, fell into a volcano whilst fighting in a duel with Obiwan. Does this have any weight, or was it mere fanfic speculation?"
This was in the novelization of Return of the Jedi. Obi-Wan tells Luke: "We fought... your father fell into a molten pit. When your father clawed his way out of that fiery pool, the change had been burned into him forever --- he was Darth Vader, without a trace of Anakin Skywalker. Irredeemably dark. Scarred. Kept alive only by machinery and his own black will... "
Near the end, we get a glimpse of Vader's thoughts: "These were memories he wanted none of, not now. Memories of molten lava, crawling up his back... no. This boy had pulled him from that pit --- here, now, with this act. This boy was good."
As to how much weight it carries... that's a matter of perspective, really. Very little of what Kenobi says can be taken literally, as he seems to have a cynical and figurative attitude towards truth.
"It also seemed to me, that in Ep II, 3PO doesn't remember R2 at all. Again his memory must've been erased in between I and II."
Well, R2 and 3PO didn't spend much quality time together... maybe Lars wiped his memory when he purchased and subsequently married Schmi (unlikely, since 3PO did remember Anakin & Padme), or the droid's got a pretty selective case of amnesia.
"But this Padme and Leia going to Aldaran after the Clone wars, where's this from? Does Padme/Amadala have actual basis in Wars lore?"
Leia is a senator from Alderaan and an adopted member of the royal family, so it stands to reason she was taken there by Padme and Organa during the final years of the Clone Wars (which ended some twenty years prior to A New Hope).
"I thought the main characters and events of Ep I and II were invented and written then and there by Lucas at the inception of the films."
They were, for the most part. The problem is that there's a whole lot of semi-established "canon" which Lucas is going directly against, leading to contradictions within the SW universe and a very ugly mess for us fanboys to clean up.
[ January 07, 2003, 02:00: Message edited by: E. Cartman ]
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quote:Originally posted by The Red Admiral: It also seemed to me, that in Ep II, 3PO doesn't remember R2 at all. Again his memory must've been erased in between I and II.
He couldn't have had a memory wipe (that's what it's called, BTW, and it's quite common and routine for many droids when they are passed between owners---it apparently doesn't affect any of the droid's core programming, just the "personal" memories acquired through the years/months/whatever) between TPM and AOTC because he remembered Anakin. I'd say that there's no real evidence that he didn't remember R2, and even that aside, I see no real reason why he *should* for that matter. They were briefly introduced, and 3PO hadn't even been finished yet.
quote:Origianlly posted by E. Cartman: "I thought the main characters and events of Ep I and II were invented and written then and there by Lucas at the inception of the films."
They were. The problem is that there's a whole lot of semi-established "canon" which Lucas is going directly against, leading to contradictions within the SW universe and a very ugly mess for us fanboys to clean up.
Well, sort of. The degree to which Lucas actually had the backstory planned out "in the beginning" is obviously not as high as he would have us believe in his personal interviews. This is evidenced by the numerous differences we've seen between the screenplays of the original films (which, incidentally, is where a lot the additional dialogue in the novels comes from, including Obi-Wan's discussion of his duel with Vader in the ROTJ novel) and the prequels, (i.e. Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother and such) and by other behind-the-scenes info. Though Lucas clearly did have some kind of plan laid out, specific characters were either added later (Qui-Gon, for example) or, as in the case of Amidala (who is obviously supposed to be the mysterious mother mentioned by Leia in ROTJ) were originally very sketchy and later were reworked or elaborated upon greatly.
And as far as continuity between the prequels and other elements of the SW universe such as the novels, comics, etcetera goes, there haven't been too many glaring discrepancies. Most stuff is fairly workable.
-MMoM
-------------------- The flaws we find most objectionable in others are often those we recognize in ourselves.
Registered: Jun 2001
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quote: They were. The problem is that there's a whole lot of semi-established "canon" which Lucas is going directly against, leading to contradictions within the SW universe and a very ugly mess for us fanboys to clean up.
The films have, on the whole been fairly consistent with one another (with the possible exception of the age of the Republic) anything else like novels or comic books are just supplements and are not really important to the Star Wars saga. If you treat all the materials as being based on historical documents then you can put down any inconsistencies between the books and the films as being the same story told from different points of view, with some facts confused or fabricated, as is often the nature with written histories.
In regards to how much of a backstory Lucas had planned, here is a passage taken from the original novelisation of Star Wars:
quote:PROLOGUE Another galaxy, another time. The Old Republic was the Republic of legend, greater than distance or time. No need to note where it was or whence it came, only to know that...it was the Republic. Once under the wise rule of the Senate and the protection of the Jedi Knights, the Republic throve and grew. But as often happens when wealth and power pass beyond the admirable and attain the awesome, then appear those evil ones who have greed to match. So it was with the Republic at it's height. Like the greatest of trees, able to withstand any external attack, the Republic rotted from within though the danger was not visible from outside. Aided and abetted by restless, power hungry individuals within the government, and the massive organs of commerce, the ambitious Senator Palpatine caused himself to be elected President of the Republic. He promised to reunite the disaffected among the people and to restore the remembered glory of the Republic. Once secure in office he declared himself Emperor, shutting himself away from the populace. Soon he was controlled by the very assistants and boot-lickers he had appointed to high office, and the cries of the people for justice did not reach his ears. Having exterminated through treachery and deception the Jedi Knights, guardians of justice in the galaxy, the Imperial governors and bureaucrats prepared to institute a reign of terror among the disheartened worlds of the galaxy. Many used the imperial forces and the name of the increasingly isolated Emperor to further their own personal ambitions. But a small number of systems rebelled at these new outrages. Declaring themselves opposed to the New Order they began the great battle to restore the Old Republic. From the beginning they were vastly out numbered by the systems held in thrall by the Emperor. In those first dark days it seamed certain the bright flame of resistance would be extinguished before it could cast the light of new truth across a galaxy of oppressed and beaten peoples... From the First Saga Journal of the Whills
He seams to have stuck to most of it, although the bit about the Emperor being controlled by his assistants doesn't seam right. On the other hand we never really learnt exactly who those "Imperial Dignitaries" (whom appeared in some scenes in RotJ) were or what their function was.
In the RotJ book there are some more detailed references to Leia's "real" mother (apparantly the fact that she was adopted was never a secret). There are references to "-distorted visions of running...a beautiful woman...hiding in a trunk..." and "parting embraces, flesh being torn from flesh". Which may or may not give some insight to the fate of Padme and the circumstances of her giving up Leia.
posted
In one of the Timothy Zahn novels...Dark Force Rising, I think...Mara Jade (The Emperor's Hand) mentions that the Emperor told her he cut off Vader's hand himself after failing to kill the Rebels at Yavin. This was always taken to be true until Ep II, when Anakin looses his hands much sooner. That's one of the main Ep II/SW Novels discrepancies. There is the possibility, of course, that the Emperor was lying to Jade as to not reveal who Vader really was...
posted
Many thanks. Soundeffect got it, I mixed up Qui-Gon and Windu here in regards to the relationship with Mace.
Another thing that occurs to me is adds more weight to the theory that R2 didn't have his memory wiped at all. In Ep IV, when they set down on tattoine, he (it) immediately takes off in a certain direction as if he knows where he is, and where he's going. 3PO doesn't know where they are, but R2, it seems, remembers Tattoine, and that Kenobi is a residant there, and where he lives. He also escapes after being purchased from Owen, still trying to seek Obiwan.
It is also mentioned that Obiwan once owned this R2 unit, R2 remembers it, Obiwan doesn't though "I don't seem to recall owning any droids before..." Maybe he's getting senile in his old age. But I thought that this was quite a nice touch in continuity with the prequels.
It would make sense that Luke was purposefully relocated (hidden) on Tattoine as an adopted nephew of Owen and Beru, (probably decided by Yoda) and that Obiwan moved there also to keep an eye on him as he grew up. But Luke's connection to the Jedi and his father who ceded to the dark side is probably the reason why Owen preferred Luke not to get involved with anything Jedi at all, or 'Ben Kenobi- that crazy old wizard', fearing perhaps he might follow in his father's footsteps.
About these mysterious 'Meta-clorines' (sic) - the organisms that give rise to the force. Did this exist in Wars canon before Ep I came along?
-------------------- "To the Enterprise and the Stargazer. Old girlfriends we'll never meet again." - Scotty
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