posted
I'm an old fart and saw all the original trilogy movies when they first came out. Star Wars completely amazed me and is still one of my top 5 favorite movies of all time. However, "The Empire Strikes Back" left we sort of cold. Most people, however, seem to think it's the best Star Wars movie. Why?
I find the humor forced (no pun intended); in particular the droids get really annoying. I don't like how the action is split up and diluted among different locations, only coming together at the end (sort of why I don't like B plots in Trek). I hate spectral Jedi. I don't believe the Han/Leia love story. Cloud City looked terrible.Luke's face is all messed up. Too much soap opera. Lacks a bit space battle at the end. (It's got some good stuff too, of course.)
I'd like to hear your thoughts!
-------------------- When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
I liked it because the bad guys won. Not that I want evil to trumph, but Empire showed struggle. Everyone was lucky to get out with their lives.
Hoth was a defeat. Solo was frozen and taken away. Luke learns who his father is.
There's just a lot of tragedy. Makes our heroes struggles all that more believable.
Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
posted
I can think of lots of things to say that are secret ways of putting down Star Wars fans, but I will attempt to restrain myself.
I think a lot of it has to do with Han Solo, and him being a more compelling character than Luke. I mean, Luke has magic powers and guardian angels to help him out of tight spots, but Han just has his wits and his friends; Empire gives him half the film, whereas he's more of a supporting character (albeit a major one) in the other two.
Many people think that it's better written and directed as well, but those are fairly subjective things, and as I haven't watched any of the originals in a long time, I wouldn't really feel comfortable in insisting that to be the case, even though I sort of feel like it is, or that I thought it was the last time I watched it. Basically, I've never seen the first three films as an adult.
Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Empire is better written and better directed than either of the films that bookend it. As to the script, yes, it's the middle chapter which doesn;t resolve anything, but the quality of the writign and dialogue is better than the tin eared dialogue of the other films. Directorially it's better, too. Kershner was able to get decent performances out of the actors, and make even clumsy dialogue sound mostly natural (Yoda aside). The cinematography in the film is better than the others, too, in terms of shot choice and lighting.
-------------------- "Well, I mean, it's generally understood that, of all of the people in the world, Mike Nelson is the best." -- ULTRA MAGNUS, steadfast in curmudgeon
Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged
posted
Well, Return of the Jedi has Ewoks which for a lot of people is an immediate deathblow. Star Wars was very successful and iconic, which oddly enough causes many people to shy away from it by default as being their public favorite.
Of course these people tend to be the most vocal which is why I have a feeling the perception of "most" in the original post is distorted. I bet that if you ask "Star Wars fans" which is the best you'll get Empire but if you ask the general population which is the best science fiction film you'll get Star Wars before any of the other three. e.g. http://imdb.com/chart/top
You know, sort of the, oh [insert massively popular and money-making venture here] was ok for the plebes but [more obscure but more "cool" thing] was better because of X, where X is a unquantifiable property to the plebes.
e.g. TNG was ok, but DS9 was more dark and thought-provoking. The LOTR movies were good, but I preferred the books because they had the Scouring. The X-Files in the later seasons were ok, but I preferred the first season before it got popular...etc.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: Well, Return of the Jedi has Ewoks which for a lot of people is an immediate deathblow.
Amen. I saw a nice re-edit of RTOJ (at a Trek con many years ago) that pieced all the ewok stuff together (ending with Han and Leia watching the Death Star explode), then showing all the Luke/Vader battle.
It was pretty cool as I recall, though I cant remember if the music was just looped for each segment or what.
-------------------- Justice inclines her scales so that wisdom comes at the price of suffering. -Aeschylus, Agamemnon
Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
posted
Good points. Star Wars recently appeared on Time Magazine's 100 top movies list (compiled by two of their critics) and was also in the top 10 of the American Film Institute's favorites list. I have no shame in publicly stating that Star Wars is by far my favorite, even if some people say I like it for the wrong reasons! (I also liked Matrix 3 better than Matrix 2). A poll right now at Trek Today, however, has Empire (1st place) outpolling the original (third place) by 2 to 1.
I absolutely hated Jedi when I first saw it and have only seen it twice in the last 20 years. In addition to those fucking Ewoks it's got burping jokes, that vagina with teeth (Sarlac), dopey slapstick deaths (of Boba Fett, etc), some really dodgy matte work (Luke running in front of Rancor), action even more divided among different locals, story-stopping visits to Dagobah, more spectral Jedis, too many rubbery aliens, a disappoint revelation of Anakin's face, even more soap opera and convoluted explanations, and the same ending as Star Wars.
-------------------- When you're in the Sol system, come visit the Starfleet Museum
Registered: Oct 1999
| IP: Logged
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
Episode 1 did! Little Anakin flies into the Donut ship and blows it up by accident.
Curiously, none of the prequels feature a climactic battle in space.
(Bam!)
But, like, we see a little background action, and then Anakin is on the virtual ground inside the ship skidding around blowing things up. Sure, it ends up saving the day for some reason, but the film doesn't particularly focus on it, and all the important action is on the ground.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Incidentally, I always find myself thrown out of the film when, in Clerks, Randal appears to suggest that the fan consensus has Return of the Jedi being superior to Empire.
Registered: Mar 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
I believe that one of the main reasons people like TESB is because it's not the establishing movie and it's not the wrapping-up movie. When watching it, it's like you're in the middle of all the goodies, you've seen some and you have some left.
It's the same in computer games, to me. In the beginning I'm still learning and, in the case of RPGs, the equipment slightly sucks, while in the end-part I feel the ante has been upped, the levels get emptier while serving up the big finale and I know I won't have time to grow that much more before it's over. Maybe I've also collected far more equipment and money than I can spend or use. Shops close, dialogue choices dry up.
In the middle of the game, though, you can walk on a long straight road without seeing the finish-line and just feel comfortably at rest in the universe the game has created, wondering what's going to happen next.
-------------------- "I'm nigh-invulnerable when I'm blasting!" Mel Gibson, X-Men
Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged
posted
Those I know who like ESB more than the others like it because ESB is where Darth Vader is at his most evil. In ANH he plays second string to Tarkin and in RotJ he's having second thoughts. However, in ESB he throttles Admirals at the drop of a hat, tortures Han Solo for very little reason, and tries to goad Luke into joining the Dark Side. Finally, he smashes Luke up with flying objects, cuts off his hand, and reveals that he's his father. Given that Darth Vader is probably the most popular character in Star Wars and that ESB lets him be truly evil, it's no surprise that ESB is the most popular among fans.
-------------------- "Having is not so pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
Registered: Apr 2005
| IP: Logged
Printer-friendly view of this topic
