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Now that we all have seen Revenge of the Sith by now, does anyone think Order 66 was the end of all the Jedi? Granted, while many of the more prominent ones were killed, there had to have been at least some who survived beyond just Yoda and Obi-Wan. (although probably not as powerful as either of them)
As for Palpatine and Vader,we know from the Expanded Universe that both of them had their apprentices that they took on, such as the Emperor's Hands
posted
I still haven't seen Revenge of the Sith, but I doubt that Order 66 was the end of all of the Jedi. I think the EU says a few more Jedi made it into hiding besides just Yoda and Obi-Wan, but the standards rules of beware what's canonical apply. Just as far as the movie is concerned, there could have been Jedi on deep-space missions or were sick and stayed home from work and school on the day that Order 66 was executed.
-------------------- The philosopher's stone. Those who possess it are no longer bound by the laws of equivalent exchange in alchemy. They gain without sacrifice and create without equal exchange. We searched for it, and we found it.
Registered: Mar 1999
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posted
Also, in a somewhat surprising twist, ROTS shows that the Clone Wars are actually a relatively minor conflict from the galactic point of view - so minor that there's debate as to whether the Republic side should still bother to fight or just call it quits. Either Dooku's grandiose "10,000 Separationist systems" promises in AOTC never quite materialized, or then 10,000 out of millions just isn't that big a deal.
Sure, the surviving Jedi may have had their hands full with the remaining sieges. But it's just as possible that the Republic was pretty much back to business as usual, and that many Jedi were on assignments where there were no clone troopers to accompany - or backstab - them. ROTS shows that the Jedi aren't necessarily needed for on-the-spot leadership, as special clones capable of initiative are now leading the troops; the Force users could thus be back to their usual mischief as lone troubleshooters.
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Could someone explain to me why it is that the Clone troopers were so willing to execute Order 66? From what I have read, especially the biography of Commander Gree on the official Star Wars web site, there were clones who were developing individual personalities. Wouldn't these individuals have questioned Order 66 and refused to obey in loyalty to their Jedi co-warriors? The movie portrayed every clone warrior as a mindless automaton no better than the drones they were created to fight.
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posted
Well obviously the command had been hard-wired into their psyche so that morality or ethics never entered into it, the clones didn't even change the pitch of their voice from that of regular speech, just "Affirmitive" or "Roger".
The book/movie(s) "The Manchurian Candidate" comes to mind.
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
I watched Attack of the Clones (not entirely willingly) last night, and the long-necked guy makes a point of mentioning how the clones have been specifically engineered to be more compliant and unquestioning.
Registered: Mar 1999
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This is interesting, the RPG "Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic: Sith Lords" was released to PC/X-Box in December last year. In about the middle of the game, when you've gotten enough influence with your assassin droid HK-47, you can get advice from him about the best ways to kill Jedi (something the droid has had much practice with).
Now, the first line made me think that the script-writers at Obsidian Entertainment had gotten some briefing from Lucasfilm and Lucasarts about "Jedi Vs. Friendly Fire" in the upcoming movie.
The second picture makes me think of Yoda and his traumatic episode after feeling his friends and allies die one after the other. This is also what HK-47 recommends: Use mines, traps and bombs on Jedi, no blasters ("If I see another meatbag go at a Jedi with a blaster I'll kill him myself."), and the best ways to affect Jedi (not Sith) is by killing or endangering their friends, loved ones and allies, playing on their self-sacrifice and compassion.
47 is a naughty droid.
Registered: Aug 1999
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Naughty, but effective in his analysis. Using their strengths against them is a sound, if sometimes hard to pull off, strategy.
Registered: Apr 2003
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Some (on other DBs) question whether Order 66 was an implanted "command" or simply the case of soldiers "just following orders..."
I prefer the thought that it was a hardwired hypnotic suggestion.
Has anyone read much of C.J. Cherry's work? She's created a vast science ficition universe that uses clones extensively for varous slave/menial, assistants, troops and colonization labor.
These clones, or Azi, all have individual personalities, yet they also have specific conditioning trained and integrated into them via chemical and hypnotic/deep probe methods.
The clone troopers might be similar. Individual personalities may be an expected side-effect.
Boba is a clone but he obviously has a distinct personality. One of the advantages of growing up naturally vs. accelerated aging.
Back on topic...
The way the movie had Obi-Wan reprogram the distress signal into a warning beacon left open the idea of other Jedi surviving and going into hiding.
I always assumed Ben and Yoda were the last of the Jedi, but there is no direct evidence to support this assumption.
There may be others hiding.
Some of these others may have been discovered by Vader and the Emperor in the 20 years between Episodes III and IV. After all, Ben tells Luke that Vader "Helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi."
Margaret Weis wrote a SciFi series called the Star of the Guardian series. There is a Vader-esque character in this series that is hunting down and killing Jedi Knight type of characters that he used to be a member of.
With the television series coming being set in the time period between Episodes III and IV, I wouldn't be suprised if some of this eventually is revealed.
Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
It seems simplest to assume that the clone troopers are capable of normal human types of independent thought and subsequently of ethical analysis, but have been ingrained with an overwhelming sense of duty to their chain of command. And that chain just happens to have Darth Sidious at the very top...
It's the fault of the Jedi for not asking, really.
"So, uh, Jango, how's it feel, being a clone?"
"Fine, just fine. Happy to serve, sir. And thank you for tourniqueting that leg, sir."
"Umm. You're welcome, son. Uh. You never find the job too demanding or anything? Never want to have a day off?"
"No sir. I live to serve. By the way, sir, have you seen my left arm anywhere? There's a blaster attached, and the Sarge says those are expensive."
"Ah, no. So you never have a problem with me ordering you to these things?"
"No sir, not in the slightest. I know that you are only following orders, too. But could you wipe the blood from my visor, sir? If it's not too intrusive, I mean. It's a bit of a chore without hands, is all."
"Well, yes, orders. I know the Council may sometimes seem a bit harsh-"
"Council?"
"The Jedi Council. My superiors."
"Oh. So they are sort of go-betweens between the Sith Lord and you? I mean, we grunts don't always get it straight, this organization stuff. It's simpler for us - there's Sarge for most things on the field, and then there's you for ordering these charges against the enemy fortresses, and then there's Darth Sidious for the big stuff."
"Darth... Sidious?"
"The hooded fellah. Supreme Commander. You know, the- Uh-oh. Sir, if you might, my heart seems to need a litt.. Urg. Nevr mnd sr."
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Are you sure that was his heart failing and not anything with his windpipe? :.)
Seriously, it has to have been a very specific and extremely covert procedure that was done to the clones to make them do what they did during order 66. Think about it, the hundreds of thousands of government workers, authorities and military staff that controlled the army and the clones would never have stood for special brainwash-dispensations giving someone at the top the power to start a genocide without authorization or hesitation, the republic was still a democracy when the clones were incorporated into it.
Furthermore, it would've been one thing if the clones were simply extremely obedient in all cases and would shoot a puppy without asking if even a jedi told them to, but that would make them vulnerable to counter-orders as well.
No, Palpatine didn't call up the clones and say "See that high-ranking jedi general in your unit? Kill him.", he merely said "order 66" and the clones immediately knew who to target and what level of force to implement.
Especially Commander Cody, who had saved Kenobi's saber and bantered with him in the cruiser hanger, wouldn't have ordered Kenobi "shot down" in a calm and prompt manner had it not been a subconscious decision. Although it was strange the way the gunner went along with it too, without having heard the order himself.
I can't really imagine the kaminoans going along with it either, they are neutral and also seemed very impressed with Kenobi when he visited.
We don't know anything about clone conditioning procedures in SW, of course. It might be standard routine for the kaminoans to at least incorporate a "kill switch" in all clones so the owners can have the ultimate power in case something would go wrong, and perhaps the implementation of order 66 was snuck in by Dooku or Palpatine as just programming code, which the kaminoans dutifully submitted to the computers.
Since it was called "order 66" (omen?) there probably were all sorts of other commands as well, like in the "Command & Conquer: Red Alert"-games; 'return to base' or 'retreat'.
Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
This whole conversation fuels my belief that Sidious was Master Sifo Dias all along and that it was he who ordered the clones. Most likely, Sifo Dias was just a mass hallucination. All the Jedi know he was alive and on the council and that he died abotu 10 years ago... but know one really knows the specifics.
If Sideous had direct involvement in ordering the clones, it would have been easier for him to slip in all kinds of easter eggs. If the request to slip a kill-the-Jedi command into their mind's was questioned, any answer would've been alot more convincing coming from a Jedi. "Well, this is just in case one of my brethren decide to use their unit to do something bad. You know... like appoint himself Emperor."
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I think it's more likely Sifo Dias was a real Jedi who happened to be killed on a mission, and then Dooku took that as his opportunity to impersonate Sifo Dias and place the order for the clone army.
posted
Hmmm... that could be too. Or maybe Palpatine made sure he was killed on a mission in order to impersonate him. That's why there was some confusion about the time line among Obi Wan, Windu, and Yoda.
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