I need your opions about a argument I had with brother. Who here belives in ghosts? The reason I'm asking this becuse my little brother sayes he can see them. I believe in a life after death but not in ghosts. I think he's making it up, but I still want to see what other people think. Ghosts: Fact or Fiction
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Not really fiction, but I think it's some kind of psychological effect.
Perhaps really missing someone or feeling uncomfortable in a 'scary' place could perhaps make our minds a bit too susceptible to suggestion.
Ghost photographs, OTOH, are all fiction. They're mostly shadows or random patterns that are interpreted as human shapes. In the other cases, it's just plain simply a fucked up photograph. Either overexposes, underexposed, freak lensflares and stuff like that.
Show me ONE picture that shows a convincing ghost, and you'll get a cookie.
Posted by EMH Mk.2 (Member # 860) on :
I dunno. There are some genuine paranormal phenomena (like the Ouija board ritual) that can't be explained by science -- yet. I myself am undecided, but leaning towards the "astral world" side of things.
Or perhaps ghosts are events in a universe near to ours in phase space, quantum tunneling through to our own.
[ September 19, 2002, 13:43: Message edited by: E. Cartman ]
Posted by EMH Mk.2 (Member # 860) on :
quote:Show me ONE picture that shows a convincing ghost, and you'll get a cookie.
Where's my cookie? Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Re: Ghosts:
No.
Re: Afterlife:
Probably not.
Re: People who post messages claiming not to really believe a thing, then posting links to the very thing they claim not to believe in:
Blecch! Posted by EMH Mk.2 (Member # 860) on :
quote:Re: People who post messages claiming not to really believe a thing, then posting links to the very thing they claim not to believe in:
Blecch!
Actually my brother had that site saved to favorites. All I had to do was post the link.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
It is based on a persons belief system.
A religious friend of mine says that they are all demons, making you think that they were the once living person.
A lunitic friend of mine sates that they are indeed people that are either to stubborn or stupid to admit death, and thus carry on.
A third friend, and the last on the entire list, says that once you are dead, you are dead, and the paranormal is for the abnormal.
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
Balderdash! Any distinguished gentleman recognizes that "ghosts" are really thetans!! Infinitesimal thetans, of the worst kind! Our galaxy must be cleansed!!! *screams with tongue flinging from side to side* AEEAEAAEAEAEAEAAAHHH!!!!
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Ghosts: Yes Afterlife: Yes My opinion of your situation: Your choice to believe him or not. I would believe him.
I've got an open mind. I believe it's possible for ghosts and the afterlife to exist.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
I'm of the opinion that dead people would have a lot more important things to do than bum around wearing bedsheets and uttering monosyllabic phrases at teens hanging around old Indian burial grounds....but thats just me.
Posted by Magnus de Pym (Member # 239) on :
I've never liked Thetans, and I never will. I can never forgive them, for the death of my Hubbard.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i believe in neither ghosts or an afterlife.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Well done.
Whether you believe in them or not, the fact does remain that pretty much 100% of the people who have claimed to see them are either:
1/ Mental 2/ College girls who are stupid 3/ Lunatics 4/ Kids crying for attention 5/ Whack-jobs.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I qualify for 1, 3, and 5, but haven't seen any ghosts before.... Hey, whose clanking that chain....
Alomst qualify for number 4, but I am not a kid....
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
"Priests and fools say / we are but animate clay / but crude vessels / housing immortal souls / But the dead only quickly decay"
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
they sometimes decay slowly, depending on the chemical constituency of the corpse and the environment that the corpse is in.
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Okay.. that site you linked to.
1) It starts with a picture of that alien hoax. Good start.
Take this one for example. The symmetrical reflection above the right girl is supposed to be a ghost. But look at it. It's just a reflection. It might look a bit like a human face, but that's just coincidence. Same category as the Mars Face (or the Mars Pyramids, Mars Cities and Mars Gazebos).
An angel in the sky. Of course not. Very nice cloud pattern resembling an angel in the sky. It's quite beautiful. But pure coincidence.
Eh? I don't know what the hell this man this man is doing, but even if that goo on his head is somehow unexplained.. why does it have to have anything to do at all with ghosts? The fact that the stuff wasn't seen at the time strongly suggests a freak reflection or lens flare sort of thing.
NO LEGS.. well.. not that freaky. It's called movement. Making a picture of someting moving, especially when that something is not in focus, can easily produce this kind of "ghost".
Smokey Ghosts. There are literally 1000s of pictures like this. Always taken at night, and always with flashlight. It's just light reflection of particles (fog, smoke)!
I'll stop now.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
I believe that there may be ghosts out there. I've heard of some pretty strange stuff that can't all be hoaxes. And I definitely belive in the afterlife. I can't picture just dying, and then blackness for all eternity.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I've never seen the no legs type photo... I would put that with you nice photoshopping too....
Posted by Capped In Mic (Member # 709) on :
I'm always amazed when i see an LCARS interface on a non-Trek site
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, I haven't read any replies, and I'm going to reply to the first post right now.
Mum was telling me about this lady at the 'beauty place' she goes to - you know hair etc. Anyway her daughter is well... quite perceptive of these things. (The lady/mother isn't the person who does mum's hair it was another girl telling mum about the other hairdresser's daughter.)
Anyway this girl supposedly has very big blue eyes - that freak some people out - cause she's supposed to look through you sort of - not at you. Anyway the story goes that the girl - say her name is (and I think it is) Brittany - had always said a few strange things to her mother - as she was growing up - like when they'd pass the cemetary - Brittany would say to her mother "look at all the people waving!" And the mother didn't think much of it - putting it down to a childs overactive imagination. Anyway there were a few other things (Brittany is only 10 or so now) anyway she'd also told her mother about the Man in the army uniform that comes to her in her room - supposedly he used to live in her house and was killed in WWI - she says he is very nice to her and he often talks? or shows her his horse (I gather he was a light horse-man.).
THEN there was another time when she had started school, and there was a field-trip to a big Cemetary here in Brisbane - Toowong Cemetary - and it's quite big, lot of historical names, there are tour etc. Anyway Brittany's mother had a phone-call towards the end of the day from her school saying could she come and pick up Brittany - cause she is very stressed out, and that she was really quite stressed the whole time at the Cemetary. Anyway supposedly the girl was white as a sheet when her mother went to pick her up from school that afternoon. According to Brittany she was very tired from all the 'people' constantly at her trying to talk to her etc. etc. at the Cemetary. The Dead were talking to her ( I guess she must have been some sort of magnet for them - maybe they knew that she could see them etc.
That's all I've really heard about it - but it's really interesting.
Andrew
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Now that is spooky.... This was to Mike's posting...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I think the bit about the Horse is intruiging - supposedly she was only very young when she first talked to the man in the army uniform. I doubt she'd know enough about World War I and The Lighthorse-men to make up a convincing lie like that.
Posted by Grokca (Member # 722) on :
This place is starting to creep me out.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by Veers: I can't picture just dying, and then blackness for all eternity.
there wouldn't be "blackness for all eternity", as that would imply something after you die. you simply cease to be.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
btw, ghosts have about as much evidence as the cottingley fairies that Sir Arthur Conan Doyle insisted on supporting. at least the photographs those little girls in England faked looked something vaguely resembing kinda maybe real.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
But they were real.... Real cutouts.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Is it just me, or does that first "ghost" look like Megatron?
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
When I think about dying, of not existing, it scares the hell out of me. It really is meant for old people, that have "covered all bases".
I feel empathy for those who've been forced to experience real death anxiety.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: Is it just me, or does that first "ghost" look like Megatron?
it looks like megatron.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: But they were real.... Real cutouts.
yes, and by being cut-outs they weren't fairies. except of the inanimate cardboard variety.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
But Mr. Nimpim, for 15 to 20 billion years you did not exist, coming into being only a few short decades ago. Was your pre-birth time so terrible?
I would prefer to go on forever, and intend to give it the old college try. But, failing that, I do not think it is too terribly awful to simply disappear, and return to the state in which I was in before. Which is to say, no state at all.
Of course, on the other hand, death is terribly unfair, as it silences a host of unique, non-replicatable voices. This is bad, and should be avoided to the best of our abilities. But, you know, if we can't, that's ok.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
i agree with you completely, Sol System.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Speak for yourselves, chums. I'm going to live forever. And if I don't, I'm going to try and break into that joint with the free parking and 40 virgins.
Better than non-existence, I think. If I can find it.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
ewwwwww, virgins. i've had several, and they aren't that exciting. gimme someone who at least knows what to do.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
But forty of them?
Posted by Da_bang80 (Member # 528) on :
I believe that once you die. You cease to exist. Like it was before you were born. just nothing. But i guess i'll find out in about a 100 years. WHy would there be an afterlife? and not a "before Life" so to speak.
Those "near death experiences" are probably just the mind hallucinating due to lack of oxygen. or the ceasing of brain activity. I'm not certain.
You have a life, just like a dog or a cat, or an armadillo if you want to be creative about it. IMO there is no soul, no god, no heaven or hell, and absolutely no afterlife.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: WHy would there be an afterlife? and not a "before Life" so to speak.
While I suppose I agree with your sentiment, this strikes me as being faulty logic. One could use it to argue that, since you did not exist in the past, it is unlikely you exist today.
Posted by EdipisReks (Member # 510) on :
quote:Originally posted by Free ThoughtCrime America: But forty of them?
i don't know, maybe. if they were pretty hot.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Since 'he' hasn't done it yet...
[Windchimes]: I have always been here.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Or, one could argue that we have always existed, but that the current configuration of our energy allows us to be sufficently self-aware to say that we now exist. At death, our energy will reconfigure, losing it's capacity for awareness.
That's pretty much my real thoughts on the matter. Life is precious, and it could be argued that awareness is even more so because of its rarity.
But it would still kick ass to have 40 virgins waiting for me when I die. Not that I'm going to.
Posted by Snay (Member # 411) on :
Not going to die? Or not going to have 40 virgins waiting for you?
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
Neither. Or both.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: [Windchimes]
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
On ghosts, I feel that yes, there are dead people out there that can contact our world. There are forces more powerful than us that we can't explain. After all, believeing in ghosts is no more crazy than believing in aliens and other worlds (which I believe are also out there, somewhere).
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
The existence of alien life does not require the supernatural.
The existence of alien life does not require violation of the known laws of physics.
The existence of ghosts does both.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, in all fairness, physics doesn't explain human consciousness, so it can't determine whether such can exist separate from a body.
Posted by Free ThoughtCrime America (Member # 480) on :
I believe in ghosts of the Native American/Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence variety. I don't blelieve in ghosts of the Headless Horseman or Amityville Horror variety.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
And I believe in ghosts of any kind. As well as good entities and evil entities. I believe in God, Allah, Yahweh or whatever you may call him/her/it. I also believe in the devil, Lucifer, Satin, or whatever you may call him/her/it. I believe in heaven, hell, and even purgatory. I believe there are portals and other passageways between these realms including our realm of the living.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I scarcely believe in myself, most days.
Posted by Nimpim (Member # 205) on :
One day, Holy Velvet will utterly vanquish your Satin, Dat!! Posted by Tora Buttercup (Member # 53) on :
quote: WHy would there be an afterlife? and not a "before Life" so to speak.
Well, nobody ever said there couldn't be a "before life." It's part of the belief in reincarnation, actually.
EMH: Personally I believe in ghosts, but your brother could also be seeing spirits. The difference is that ghosts are earthbound and sometimes don't know they're dead, and spirits are dead people who've gone to the Other Side/afterlife/heaven and can come and visit. I don't know how old your brother is, but children, especially under age 5, tend to be very receptive to spirits/ghosts (i.e. they could see them more easily).
If you don't believe any of this, however, I suggest NOT censuring your brother for telling people about seeing ghosts. Adults tend to get quite upset when children say something like they could see their dead grandfather, and they freak out and yell at their kids for it. Kids don't know it's a taboo for some people, and telling them it's only their "imagination" confuses them rather than instructs them.
As for scientific evidence, there is plenty of research and cultural evidence (2/3 of the world believes in it in one form or another) out there for reincarnation, and rather little to none against it. My opinion on scientistic views is this: if Earth is a holodeck which we come to experience life, and in this holodeck humans breathe carbon dioxide and exhale oxygen. Then, if you were to live in this environment from birth to death, there'd be no evidence that people in the outside world breathe oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide. I'm not saying that science could never find ways to explain ghosts and that sort of thing, but outright refusal of the possibility is, well, unscientific.
Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
Fear not.. ghosts can't see. Their eyeballs and optic nerves are immaterial. No surface to reflect light. No brain to process information.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
The problem with arguing that science can't prove against ghosts is that science, by it's very nature, is designed to work on the natural, not the supernatural. You can never disprove God, ghosts, etc because they don't have to "obey" the rules, such as it were.
I also tend to go for the idea that the simplest explanation is usually the most accurate. If a kid claims to be seeing ghosts, and the options are:
1/ He is closer to the supernatural realm, or 2/ He has a very active imagination...
I'd plump for option 2 every time.
Posted by O Captain Mike Captain (Member # 709) on :
meh, im still willing to bet we havent explained everything with science yet, there might be a few surprises out there that could make ghosts possible (verteron particles maybe!)
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