This is an idea I had last night for something I'm working on, & I want to run it by all y'alls.
World War II ended with a defeated Hitler as ours did, but the Japanese managed to take & keep China & Korea as well as the Philippines & coastal Indochina. The British also managed to stave off the Japanese capture of "Fortress Singapore" & thus came out of the war still as an American lackey (sorry, guys) but with far more power & prestige--more like what they had in 1935 or so.
Because of the power shifting & the triple-edged cold war, the Soviets collapsed in the mid-70s rather than the early 90s, thus leaving a fairly democratic Russian Consortium with power comparable to Britain. Basically ,there's 2 super powers & 2 major powers.
So...my question to you is...what other changes would you see with this political setup for a present-day scenario? Discuss.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
Well, first I'd have to ask why the war ended the way it did. Why didn't we nuke Japan, for instance? Did we not develop nukes? Did they? Did they not bomb Pearl Harbor, thus bringing us into the war in the first place? If so, what of the European war? Too many variables.
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
Work it this way, we didn't manage to kill most of their naval fleet at Midway. Instead it was mostly a draw. After which neither side could get much of a push through the pacific. Germany is then soundly defeated. Several months go by and Japan decides to come out of this war ahead of the game and decides to call it a draw with the US. In the end we get back some of our Pacific islands and let Japan keep what it got, since it now has a major resource supply.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
So who gets nukes when? Or missile technology? Do we have another cold war going?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Well, my understanding is that that Manhattan Project was started in response to Germany, not Japan, so one would think nuclear weaponry would still have been developed at the same time, even if not used.
Posted by Valles (Member # 925) on :
Far's I know, which ain't much, Japan had only a very limited nuclear program.
What I remember that they -were- working on, was directed energy weapons.
Which could have interesting potentials, if true.
Blessed be. -n
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Hmmm, interesting....
Skipping over Omega's obsession with nukes , there are several other questions;
1)Why did the USSr collapse in the mid-70s? 2)The vast majority of British prestige and power came from the Empire and the large armed forces that enabled us to maintain. Having managed to drive the Japanese away from India (and presumeably Australia), would we keep the Empire? Would a Conservative government have beeen elected in 1945 to enable this? One possibility; A form of 'democratic empire', sort of like modern supranational trade associations etc. The poorer members assisted by British money, etc. 3)What is the position, politically, of the Russian Consortium? 4)The UN. Does it exist? In what form? If it is similar to the present one, who has permanebt security council membership? Japan? 5)What of the EU? Is the UK a member? 6)Germany- after WWII Goering and others expressed the hope it would be subsumed into the British Empire. Did this happen, with a stronger Britain? Remember, our monarchy could claim the German throne. 7)The US government originally intended for the Cold War to occur principally between the UK and USSR (Paradise & Power, Robert Kagan, p.17), with the UK shouldering the burdan of defending Europe from Communism, with the US acting as an impartial power. Did this occur? If so, what was the impact on the UK and US respectively? Was there McCarthyism in the Us, for example? 8)The Moon Program- Joint US/UK? 9)China- I assume that by Japan retaining control of China, you mean Manchuria. Are there any independance or terrorist movements active there? Is the rest of China independant? Is it communist? 10)What is the relationship between the west and Japan like?
If i think of anything else, I'll be sure to tell you Posted by Valles (Member # 925) on :
quote: 1)Why did the USSr collapse in the mid-70s?
If one accepts the premise that the Soviet collapse was due in whole or in part to their efforts to match the defense spending of the West, they don't have just one or two to keep up with, now - they're facing three to four seperate vectors of attack, all of whom have deeper pockets than the Soviets.
quote: 3)What is the position, politically, of the Russian Consortium?
Hmmm... Marshall Plan Recipient? Just a thought.
quote: 4)The UN. Does it exist? In what form? If it is similar to the present one, who has permanebt security council membership? Japan?
If it's arranged anthing like the real one, they'd have to, I think.
quote: 7)The US government originally intended for the Cold War to occur principally between the UK and USSR (Paradise & Power, Robert Kagan, p.17), with the UK shouldering the burdan of defending Europe from Communism, with the US acting as an impartial power. Did this occur? If so, what was the impact on the UK and US respectively? Was there McCarthyism in the Us, for example?
Given what I know about Soviet decision making and the relationship between the US & the UK, I'd expect the Soviets to try and stare down all the various Capitalist Pigs. After all, they're all conspiring together, it's well known.
Anyway, IIRC, Red Scares had happened before McCarthy and the Cold War, so they woulld probably still go through. Whether they would happen the same way, with the same people, is under more question, but the basic attitudes and pressures would still be present.
quote: 8)The Moon Program- Joint US/UK?
Four way race.
quote: 9)China- I assume that by Japan retaining control of China, you mean Manchuria. Are there any independance or terrorist movements active there?
There were up until the Japanese left. I can't see any reason for them to stop of their own accord.
quote: Is the rest of China independant?
Only if, 1.) the KMT somehow got its head out of its collective ass and pulled off a miracle or 2.) leaving greater China alone was part of the peace treaty with the US - in either of which case, China is probably -someone's- puppet state. US if the KMT survived, Russian if the Communists still happened.
quote: Is it communist?
Only in case 2, above. Personally, I consider case 3.) the japanese never even slowed down all that much, to be the most likely.
quote:10)What is the relationship between the west and Japan like?
Strained. Unless there was some kind of major social exchange, the softening of attitudes and exposure to outside influences that happened during the American Occupation after the war wouldn't have happened.
This means that the factors that produced things like the Rape of Nanjing (is that the name? just off the top of my head) and the Bataan Death March were still in place. More, those'll be coming out during the postwar period with nothing to soften their emotional impact on the rest of the civilized world.
Yeah, and the US will probably -still- have a mad on about Pearl Harbor.
I consider it rather doubtful that such things would have -continued- to be Imperial policy, especially if (as I suspect but have no information to support) such actions arose mostly out of a a lack of guidelines as to proper behavior which would be corrected by the Geneva Conventions (they were post WWII, right?).
Deciding if, how, when, and why these changes would have taken place would require someone who's made a better study of Japanese culture than this poor anime freak, so I think I'll leave it at that.
Anyway, the damage would have been done, but they'd be too powerful to ignore.
Blessed be. -n
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Why? US-UK 'special relationship' still applies. With the UK's maintainance of global power in this scenario, why shouldn't it be a joint mission? It'd be cheaper for each nation and humiliate the commies.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
I would've loved to have visited the drydocked, museumized Battleship Yamato...
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim: I would've loved to have visited the drydocked, museumized Battleship Yamato...
Perhaps, but Starblazers would be so fundamentally different, perhaps your fondness wouldn't be there.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
, there are several other questions; ![[Wink]](wink.gif)