Trial starts in TWO DAYS. 0915, Baltimore County Circuit Court, Towson. Come watch!
My choice is very simple: trial by judge or trial by jury. The pros & cons:
Judge: Only have to convince one person, but verdicts can't be overturned on appeal. Takes less time to get started due to all the players already being there.
Jury: Have to convince 12 people who probably can't even agree on what to have for lunch, but verdicts can be appealed. Extra time for jury selection, which means more time in limbo, & I don't know what to ask potential members.
This all assumes that the prosecutor rejects my idea for a plea bargain, which he probably will. Ideas/opinions?
Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :
Do you have an attorney yet? What was the plea bargain?
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Difficult decision. The main problem with a jury trial in the US it is still possible for the prosecution to basically pick out which jurors they want (out of those selected). And they will always go with the ones most likely to convict. I understand they employ psychologists to help.
On the other hand, you are statistically more likely to be aquitted by a jury (in the UK anyway).
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I really don't know... I have only a little experience with juries -- I got called for jury duty about a year ago, but never even got selected for the selection process!
Does the court require a unanimous decision where you are? I seem to recall that it can vary depending on the case and the charges. I guess it's a mixed bag either way -- if it's a unanimous decision, then some of the jurists may be more likely to vote to convict, just to get out of there quicker. If that's the way things are going in their deliberations, anyway. (And from what I've heard, it seems as if the basic facts -- without explanation, anyway -- don't seem to be in your favor.)
I don't want to sound pessimistic here or try to drive your hopes down, Shik -- I honestly hope things turn out well for you -- but without knowing anything aside from what you've posted here, I'm going to speculate on a trade-off...
In the event of a conviction (which is of course undesirable), who would make the decision on the sentence -- the judge or the jury? How much discretion would they have? Without knowing the conditions of the plea bargain you're looking to make, I can't comment too much... but I might guess that you could potentially have a better chance of a lighter sentence with a judge-only trial? Would there be a possibility of being convicted on lesser charges, instead?
I hope thinks work out, however things go... Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Well, so far the general consensus has been for a judge.
Let me reiterate that my goal is NOT to be acquitted.; my goal is to stay out of jail. My plea bargain idea consists of having one count out of 22 dropped (the solicitation charge) & I plead guilty to the rest. In exchange, I get either no jail time or a suspended sentence, 2 to 5 years probation, & I register as a sex offender. That last part is no big deal, since I'm not a violent predatory offender & so there's no need for community notification (not like I don't tell people ANYway). Finally, I'd want the return of my property to me & hers to her.
That being said...yeah.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Shik, sorry to drag this up again - but just what are a few of the details... isn't it just that your girlfriend was 15 and not 16 when you were seeing each other/seeing each other?
Why has it ended up being dragged through the courts like this? I mean - yeah it's illegal but - it just seem sort of excessive given the sort of people out there who do what they do and nothing is REALLY done about it. Michael Jackson - paid them off... SO obvious after the Bashir interview that he's still doing what he is doing. Woody Allen - his own step daughter!?!
What about those people on Jerry Springer and such shows that come on and admit the types of things that they do... are they arrested and do they have to go to court!?!
Andrew
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
If I recall correctly, Soon Ye was of legal age when she began her affair with Woody Allen. As far as Michael Jackson goes, the case is supposedly still open but the victim hasn't cooperated since the pay-off. The Bashir interviewed seemed to imply that a pedophilic relationship existed between Jackson and one of the boys, but the police can't do anything without evidence and a cooperative witness (which is also the answer to the Jerry Springer scenario). Or, you can just say that celebrities get off easy because of their stature.
Shik, I have nothing to add really except to say good luck. Going either with a judge or a jury has advantages and disadvantages. A judge might be your best bet since you don't have legal counsel.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Oh, yes! GOOD LUCK!
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Based on what you said about the hope for a plea and avoiding jail, I'd say that the trial by judge sounds like a better bet. There's more of a chance for discretion if all the focus is on the judge. Of course, that can be a bad thing if the judge is really strict -- and I don't have any experience on which to offer advice there, but my possibly naive view is that judges, who deal with all sorts of trash and REAL criminals (the violent and aggressive types) every day, may recognize a different situation.
With a jury, you're going to have twelve people randomly called in to decide your fate, people who won't necessarily want to be there and may want to end everything as soon as possible. Also, the very notion of a sex offender is probably going to make them biased, whether it's open or not; and with "ordinary" people they're more likely to just react with extreme prejudice -- which would be worst case scenario for you.
It's a gamble, either way -- and since a judge trial can't be appealed (is it the verdict AND the sentence that can't be appealed? or some leeway in the sentencing process?) there's definitely more risk.
Shik, have you at least gotten some fairly current legal advice? Even if you haven't been able to keep a lawyer on retainer (which is a shitload of money, I know), have you been able to at least ask someone who'd be more knowledgable about it? I'm happy to try to help with the advice here, but as I said, I've got very little perspective on such a situation.
Again, good luck. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Firstly, why exactly do you not have a lawyer?
Weither you choose a trail by Judge (best bet if you have no lawyer)or a jury trial (that will be stocked with overprotective parents)you need to state, for the record that you have no laywer because you cannot afford one and have not been given legal counsel. That'll help in an appeal situation. Possibly overturn a conviction too.
If you had a lawyer you could at least find out the Judge's record of conviction and sentencing in this kind of case.
Best bet: explain that EVERYTHING was consentual and desired by HER and that you made a terrible mistake because you were in love. You are'nt disputing that realtions occured so sympathy is your only option.
I definitely would NOT take any plea that registers you as a sex offender!!! You could just forget any job better that McDonalds -ever- if you do that.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
Jason:
By law, a minor CANNOT give consent, so Shik can't exactly argue something for which she could not do.
Shik is being charged with what amounts to statatory rape. I believe Shik believes he was in love, but let's face it, this is still a VERY serious crime for which he is facing a VERY real prison sentence with a VERY real probability of jail time.
Shik, I hope you get your plea agreement. As far as judge and jury goes ... first off, as far as the judge goes, in response to MinutaueMan, I don't think he differentiates much between accused rapists and accused murderers. Sure you may not have stuck a gun in a girl's face to get her to take off her pants, but you probably have to convince him that you're aren't a predator using the internet to lure unsuspecting, innocent teenagers to the loss of their virginity (this, in my view, is the biggest problem you face, and probably what the prosecution will argue).
I think you best bet might be appealing to a jury that you actually WERE in love with the girl, and that your motivation was LOVE and not sex. Do you get to cross-examine her? How does she feel about you? Her positive testimony in your defense would most likely help.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
If she's going to testify: as a minor, that might not happen. As Shik is not part of the jury selection process and has no lawyer to object to a stacked jury, I'd be very wary of those 12 people. How many have kids themselves? What are their age brackets? If you have a jury of old people and parents of teens, you're boned.
Why a trial at all though? You're not going to debate that intercourse occured so there are no facts to refute and as M.S. pointed out although she was willing she could not legally give consent, it's still statutory rape you're stuck with. Trail will be a chance to show your sencerity for how you felt and that you have a lot of remorse. A jury will still have to (by law) find you guilty of many of the prosecutor's charges (although prahaps not rape)and the final decision on sentencing will still be the judges.
You mentioned already being a "violent youthful offender" and you can bet the prosecutor's going to make a point of that. He'll make you out to be a violent sex-offender even though the two are unrelated.
Fuck, you SO need a criminal lawyer!
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
I'm curious to know why no public defender...? I believe that every state provides for such. Does Maryland not do that for specific-type cases?
If "Shik" was a "violent youthful offender" and it was before he turned 18, the Prosecution is going to have a very hard time bringing forth any juvenile records. Juvy records are generally sealed and not admissable in court unless there is a particularly violent/nasty thing which occured and is relevant to the case. Even then, most judges aren't going to unseal them for a court case unless it is also particularly nasty.
I'd also be very careful what you talk about here or in any other discussion forums. The Fifth Amendment is there for a reason and anything "said" here would NOT be considered self-purjory, tho would possibly constitute evidence to be entered in for the prosecution. The less said outside the trial room, the better.
Jason: everything goes to trial in the U.S. Even your speeding ticket is basically a "trial" when you send in the money. If you ever get caught speeding or doing some sort of traffic law violation, read the ticket carefully. It should have wording to the effect of: by paying this fine, I plead guilty to the above written somewhere near the signature block that you sign. It's all a part of Due Process. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
OK, how long did you two go out for?
Did you only have sex once or on many occasions?
Did you hold her under duress at any stage?
Who is making the accusations - her or her parents?
How can rape be considered if for instance you were seeing her for a while and you regularly engaged in sex as a couple and never forced her into anything.
What happens to those people who have kids when they are like 12, 13, 14, 15? Are the impregnators charged like this?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
You could say that you were just a simple Trek Nerd who thought he was lucky to get a girlfriend at ALL!!
You could even wear a uniform and stuff!
And get the computer to recite your record... and have footage appear of your time together from some strange source from a place that is considered forbidden to go to! Then you could be charged as a threat to 'homeland security'! Except that the whole time you were really hiding the truth because your grandfather on your mother's side was Romulan and you were afraid of being punished because of that. At your trial you call up three witnesses from the past and present... Sir Isaac Newton, William Riker and some guy from woodstock. While you are giving testimony - you could have flashbacks to the incident. Don't try to lie or suppress the truth or try to coerce any of your team to do the same, because you'll be drummed out of the Academy and Josh Albert deserves better than that! Oh and watch out for the oldman out in the rose-garden!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
I was never a "violent youthful offender." Indeed, my record starts with this.
Griff: MD DOES have a public defender system. I do not qualify for it because I work. It's based on the federal poverty level, which is $748.33 a month gross. That works out to $4.37/hour on a 40-hour work week. The lowest I ever got was $875 gross, & they STILL said I made too much money. As a pizza guy.
Andrew, in order: --10 months, but we'd known each other for about 20 months. --Many times. --Never. EVER. --Her parents. She even told the cop that it was consensual. --The word "rape" does not exist. It's "sexual offense," the term for "they fucked & it was agreeable to both parties. If it'd been rape, it'd be rape &/or sexual assault. As it stands, it's SO 3 & 4, & attempted SO 3 & 4; all are concessions to the consensual nature.
The funny thing is that the presiding judge won't even know he's got the case until today; they don't make the assignments until 3:30 PM the day before trial starts.
Anyway...I've gotten my mandate & been notified of a few things by a few people. Tomorrow at 0915 EDT, we start.
But now I'm going to go get me a new bumper.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shik: I was never a "violent youthful offender." Indeed, my record starts with this.
Griff: MD DOES have a public defender system. I do not qualify for it because I work. It's based on the federal poverty level, which is $748.33 a month gross. That works out to $4.37/hour on a 40-hour work week. The lowest I ever got was $875 gross, & they STILL said I made too much money. As a pizza guy. >SNIP<
That's hosed up! I could understand if it was something like $1,748.33 a month, but less than a grand a month disqualifies you for a PD?!? It might be different if you could get a lawyer for less than $100 an hour, but that's just never going to happen....
Well, I hate to be nasty, but you likely knew what you were potentially getting in to w/dating a minor. I'm not trying to cast judgement on you, so please don't think I am. However, you take chances in a lot of stuff like that which has a law governing it. Just like when you go hauling butt down the road and break the speed limit. You know you're doing something that's against the rules, so it's your own fault when you get caught.
Anyhow, I wish you good luck. I hope you get only what you truly deserve. From all sounds, that should likely only be a slap on the wrist and/or parole, IMO. Basically, I hope you don't see the inside of a jail. You don't at all sound like someone deserving of max punishment, just a reminder that there are rules and they're put there to protect others.
Hope you get a run of good luck soon! Karma wishes coming your way! Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, good luck Shik.
With either a jury or a judge you'll probably convicted, right? As you said your goal isn't to be aquitted. The thing is (and this assumes that the US system is similar to ours, and I'm pretty sure it is) the judge will make the sentencing decision in either case. The jury just decides guilt or innocence. That I do know: I did my law A/S exam today and I've been cramming for the last week!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
:::sighs::: Yeah.
I am now officially a convicted sex offender.
Jenn offered to come with me, & I accepted. I'm glad I did, because she provided severe squirreliness dampening. We actually got in early for a change, walked up to the courthouse, went inside...
And I saw her there. With her mother.
And I hid.
I hid because I knew I shouldn't confront them. But I wanted to go up to her, hug her so hard, & never let go. She looked...so good. Smiling, laughing...And IT HURT SO MUCH to not be able to let her see me or to talk to her.
We went up to the courtroom. I saw the trooper who handled the investigation there, checked in with the prosecutor. He asked me where my lawyer was & I told him I still didn't have one. "So you're representing yourself."
"I don't have a choice," I told him.
"Oh, you have a choice," he shot back. He was LOUD. Jenn was in the back of the courtroom & she heard him word-for-word. "I'm THROUGH with you. You've been told by 2 judges to get an attorney, had 3 postponements [Not true; there was only one. --Ed.]...everyone ELSE in this room has an attorney but you. They made the choice, just as YOU made the choice. It should have been the FIRST THING on your mind. Did you eat? [Barely.. --Ed.] Did you have a place to live? [Yes, but not for much longer; & had I not, my bail would have been revoked for homelessness. --Ed.]"
I just stood there. I asked if there was a possibility of discussing a plea: "There are no plea bargains with me. If you had an attorney, I would have told him the same thing. Why would you think there would be a plea?"
I stared at him for a moment & then calmly & softly said, "I'm not the person you think I am or that you all want me to be."
Again with the sharpness. "Oh, yes, you most certainly ARE. Your are a CRIMINAL. I think so, & Trooper Casey thinks so, & the victim's parents think so. Or else we would not be here. So you have a choice. You can plead guilty & have the judge sentence you here today or you can go to trial."
"I guess I'm going to trial then."
"Fine. I'll calculate the maximum sentence for you here.." I told him I already knew it, that it was about 200 years & several hundred thousand dollars in fines. Then I walked away.
We waited. And waited. He left after I saw him run up to the doors to stop Lindsey & her mother from coming in. About 15 minutes after that, he poked in & motioned for me to follow him outside. Out in the hall, he offered me a choice. I could have a court trial (trial by judge), a jury trial, OR....
I could plead guility to child pornography & sexual offense 3 (counts 1 & 2), probation guideline for about 2 years (the judge can raise or lower that), pre-sentencing investigation (a background check into my entire life so they can get info on what would be a good sentence for me), registration as a sex offender (which I always knew I'd have to do & was OK with), an examination with the court psychiatrist....& "no contact with the victim."
It was the last part that hurt most. I didn't ask if it was until she turned 18 or if it was forever for fear of losing the upper hand. For he'd basically given me exactly what I'd wanted. MORE than that, to be exact. Still, I asked for 5 minutes to consider it. He granted me that, & I talked with Jenn. She felt it was a good deal, & I concurred. I accepted & awaited the status of plea change in the courtroom.
When I got up, everyone in the room shut up & looked at the "child pornogrpahy" charge. The prosecutor made it sound like I took pictures of her to scan & distribute to the world. He also told the judge that he would be seeking jail time. As he announced the situation, he mispronounced Lindsey's middle name & I had to do everything in my power not to speak up & correct him; that alone told me he'd not spent much if any time with her. The plea was accepted & I went first to the court psychiatrist's office to set up the appointment & then to the Division of Parole & Probation to give them the information for the investigation. Between these 2 things, I'm fairly confident I can avoid jail time now.
The disposition of sentencing hearing is now set for 13 August...a week before my birthday.
And through it all...a huge part of me would give anything, would go to jail forever, if I could just have her back...could just be with her again one more, one last time. I wanted to run up & grab her & hold her & hug her so tight...kiss her so hard, drink in her smell & touch her skin...& smile as I gazed into her eyes again.
But I can't. Ever again. And that hurts more than they or anyone else could possibly imagine. Except for her.
Yeah.
Posted by Griffworks (Member # 1014) on :
Well, congrat's dude. At least you're not in jail, man. Don't give in to your temptations and just let her go for now. You do NOT want to go to jail as a sex offender of an underage girl, from all I've ever heard.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Shik, you have no idea how glad I am for you.
I know you're hurting right now, just from what you posted... I can't try to argue with what you feel about her. And it seems like the prosecutor is a real jerk. Although in his job, he may have just been trying to rattle you, try to get you to wither and break, or even maybe testing you somehow. (I don't know how much contact, if any, you'd had with him before.)
Think of it as a game of chicken. And it sounds like you won.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"You do NOT want to go to jail as a sex offender of an underage girl, from all I've ever heard."
Well, it's slightly better than if it had been an underage boy.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Either way he would be anally raped and beaten by the inmates, correct?
THIS IS WHAT WE ARE COYISHLY CIRCUMVENTING, NO?
ANAL SEX?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:I hid because I knew I shouldn't confront them. But I wanted to go up to her, hug her so hard, & never let go. She looked...so good. Smiling, laughing...And IT HURT SO MUCH to not be able to let her see me or to talk to her.
She's smiling and laughing while your life is being fucking destroyed. Holy fuck man, I was in love once so bad it nearly destroyed me but if I was possibly going to jail and she was'nt distraught, I'd have gotten over it real quick.
Sage words of advice was given to me from my best friend: There are three billion women in the world to fall in love with- get past it. Then he pushed me in the pool.
I wish you well and really hope you don't get any jailtime but to need to get past it: for yourself.
[ June 11, 2003, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Jason Abbadon ]
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Jase said: "advice was given to me from my best friend: There are three billion women in the world to fall in love with- get past it. Then he pushed me in the pool."
I want a friend like that!
For the first time in four months I met my ex, a week ago. Felt fucking unreal, there she was again, at arms length, just like that.
I need to be pushed in a pool, bigtime. Like, from a rooftop or something, bring that shit on.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Friend to me, after being painfully rejected:
"Hey man, don't feel so bad, there are plenty of fish in the ocean..."
"Yeah, and I don't know how to catch them."
A pool? Not deep enough, I say unto thee.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
All I got was "Beer. Drink." I'm not entirely convinced any of my friends are looking to a great future in relationship councilling.
Shik: At least you're not in jail. That has to be good. And that prosecutor sounds like a complete prick. And just basically try and get over it (I know, it's not easy but it is necessary) Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"There are three billion women in the world to fall in love with..."
Yeah, but that number is significantly reduced, assuming you care what age they are.
I'm sure I could fit a Shik == pedophile joke in here someplace, but it is getting a little old, after all.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"There are three billion women in the world to fall in love with..."
Yeah, but that number is significantly reduced, assuming you care what age they are.
So drop it down to only 1 billion. Quasimodo could hook up with those odds and I'm sure Shik can too. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
One misses the point completely, good sir.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"but it is getting a little old"
It is too bad it actually is. Homerun!
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So drop it down to only 1 billion. Quasimodo could hook up with those odds and I'm sure Shik can too."
Even at one billion women, one is still in competition w/ as many men...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
So pessimestic.....I should intorduce you to some girls. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
They're not anything like you, are they? I'm only interested in girls whose topics of conversation range beyond a disdain for animated anthropoid felines wearing light red jumpsuits.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Totally mainstream or intellilectual. ...and very strange in teir own unique ways.
In truth, I've only been to three or four shows or conventions (mainly to hang with my dellow modelers)and I've noticed some real hotties attending the shows here in town....always with their geeky boyfriends though.
I really can't imagine dating someone that could debate Romulan warp drive prior to TOS or how exactly Kahn got the entire Reliant crew off their own ship....and I don't know if I'd want to really.
Opposites attract after all. Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: I'm only interested in girls whose topics of conversation range beyond a disdain for animated anthropoid felines wearing light red jumpsuits.
Girls don't find M'Ress hot?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
They like Arex - I think it's the three arms!
And Shik... why 'child pornography'? Was that just to make it sound more 'nasty'?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
i believe because he took pictures of his girlfriend, who was, by technicality of law, a child..
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
I believe I said back when I first heard about this that the prosecutors almost always assume the worst case scenario and try to nail the defendant with everything remotely possible. That way they can bargain down later and still call it a victory.
Business negotiations in the criminal justice system. How wonderful. Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
They can't prove that.
No, it's because the first charge was solicitation of a child for sexual purposes via the internet...which in MD falls under the child pornography/obscene matter rules.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: I've noticed some real hotties attending the shows here in town....always with their geeky boyfriends though.
There was aphone in debate about whether geeks were hot or not on some day time TV show this week. (Yes, I know, but by exams are over and I have a week to slob around. Sadly that means I am occasionally forced to watch daytime TV).
And talking of the Criminal Justice system, we no longer have a Lord Chancellor. Exiting, eh?
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
well every girl thats ever fooled around w/me has said that geekiness really turns them on. but thats not realy a representative result..
Posted by darkwing_duck1 (Member # 790) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: Shik, you have no idea how glad I am for you.
I know you're hurting right now, just from what you posted... I can't try to argue with what you feel about her. And it seems like the prosecutor is a real jerk. Although in his job, he may have just been trying to rattle you, try to get you to wither and break, or even maybe testing you somehow. (I don't know how much contact, if any, you'd had with him before.)
Think of it as a game of chicken. And it sounds like you won.
That's EXACTLY what he was trying to do! And when Shik didn't break, he got a plea offer...
From the sound of things, this whole situation was a SEVERELY fragged up mess from the beginning. This girl's parents have issues of their own, from what I've heard.
Still, I think we ALL have learned a lesson from this: DON'T break the rules, because it CAN come back to haunt you.
Good luck Shik!
Posted by CaptainMike (Member # 709) on :
or, don't get caught.. thankfully im in the tail end of the ordeals theyve put me through dealing with my drug charges, today is one year after i got arrested, but the charges will be officially dropped in the next two wees and i was never charged in connection with Asia's age.. and i'm sober and have a girlfriend my own age, and i've realized what a snotty bitch i got arrested with.
Posted by Epoch (Member # 136) on :
It wasn't a game of chicken and Shik didn't win, the prosecution did. They slap on every possible count so that they have the highest probability of getting something to stick. They never intend to get them all, if they did it would just be an added bonus.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
Look who's a celebrity. Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
That looks suspiciously like a site dedicated to Weblogging about other people's Weblogs. But I must be imagining it. Such a thing couldn't possibly exist. I'd have to destroy the whole bloody civilization if we'd gone that far.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
What is the "LJ" in "LJ Drama"?
So, how you holdin' up? I hope your "fame" does not extend to your neighborhood....nothing like a bunch of "holier than thou" stares wherever you go.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
LJ == LiveJournal
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
There is an internet sociology thesis just itchin' to be written on this.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Neighbor = Neighbour!!
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
The idiot kids playing prankster with phome calls have started.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Just re-affirms my basic premise on like: People are assholes.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
Assholes are people 2. ^__^
Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :
It says your LJ has been deleted. Did you do that, Shik, or did the LJ folks do it due to server overload or something?
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Hey, Shik... you sure you'd have wanted counsel? :]
(Recently reported in the Maryland Bar Association Lawyers Journal, the following are 22 questions actually asked of witnesses by attorneys during trials and, in certain cases, the responses given by insightful witnesses:)
"Now doctor, isn't it true that when a person dies in his sleep, he doesn't know about it until the next morning?"
"The youngest son, the twenty-year old, how old is he?"
"Were you present when your picture was taken?"
"Were you alone or by yourself?"
"Was it you or your younger brother who was killed in the war?"
"Did he kill you?"
"How far apart were the vehicles at the time of the collision?"
"You were there until the time you left, is that true?"
"How many times have you committed suicide?"
Q: So the date of conception (of the baby) was August 8th? A: Yes. Q: And what were you doing at that time?
Q: She had three children, right? A: Yes. Q: How many were boys? A: None. Q: Were there any girls?
Q: You say the stairs went down to the basement? A: Yes. Q: And these stairs, did they go up also?
Q: Mr. Slatery, you went on a rather elaborate honeymoon, didn't you? A: I went to Europe, Sir. Q: And you took your new wife?
Q: How was your first marriage terminated? A: By death. Q: And by whose death was it terminated?
Q: Can you describe the individual? A: He was about medium height and had a beard. Q: Was this a male, or a female?
Q: Is your appearance here this morning pursuant to a deposition notice which I sent to your attorney? A: No, this is how I dress when I go to work.
Q: Doctor, how many autopsies have you performed on dead people? A: All my autopsies are performed on dead people.
Q: All your responses must be oral, OK? What school did you go to? A: Oral.
Q: Do you recall the time that you examined the body? A: The autopsy started around 8:30 p.m.. Q: And Mr. Dennington was dead at the time? A: No, he was sitting on the table wondering why I was doing an autopsy.
Q: You were not shot in the fracas? A: No, I was shot midway between the fracas and the navel.
Q: Are you qualified to give a urine sample? A: I have been since early childhood.
Q: Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse? A: No. Q: Did you check for blood pressure? A: No. Q: Did you check for breathing? A: No. Q: So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy? A: No. Q: How can you be so sure, Doctor? A: Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar. Q: But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless? A: It is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
The 'oral' one is a classic! Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
Assuming those are real in the first place, many of them sound like they could have been rhetorical questions intended to make a point, rather than garner an answer.
Posted by Shik (Member # 343) on :
It's that time again, folks.
Tomorrow is my sentencing. 0930, Baltimore County Circuit Court, Towson, MD. In front of the Rt. Hon. Judge John Grason Turnbull II--the head judge for the circuit.
I've left instructions for a post to be made here in my name on the off chance I should be given a prison term & immediately remanded to custody. So fear not, little buckaroos--you'll know what the skinny is.
In the meantime, I've completed a massive move-out from my apartment into a storage unit (took 34 hours & another 5 to clean; read about on the LJ) & am now temporarily homeless. But it's all good. I've got purpose now.
Rock on, y'all.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Okay, I'm a bit worried that there hasn't been an update yet. I hope everything went as best it could, Shik.
Posted by The359 (Member # 37) on :
Well, since we haven't gotten any messages from his "friend", I would take a wild guess that he merely hasn't been able to get online.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Hopefully he's out celebrating a suspended sentence with some pizza, beer and a new older girlfreind. Slightly older girls are the best anyway. Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
hrm.. interesting theory
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Originally written as a reply to the new topic.
Holy shit. EIGHTEEN MONTHS? For a consentual (though illegal by law, I know) relationship that involved no abuse or violence of any kind?
That's just plain wrong. Yes, I know that Shik got off fairly easily considering the maximum possible sentences. But it's still wrong.
What sucks even more is the work-release program. Yes, it gets him out of jail early, which is a good thing, but he'll also be stuck in the area where the work-release center is, and it's very unlikely that he'll be able to get any decent job (higher than minimum wage, of course). The boss at my old job at the bagel shop hired a few people from a local work-release program, and I know that the only reason he did so was because he needed a few warm bodies behind the counter. It's not a very well-regarded opportunity.
Damn. Here's hoping for the best for him. Is there any way we can get in touch with him in the mean time? Send him letters, and stuff?
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:Holy shit. EIGHTEEN MONTHS? For a consentual (though illegal by law, I know) relationship that involved no abuse or violence of any kind?
Not to bring out the old arguement, but if she'd been ten and he'd been fifty, would you still be saying this? Shik is what, twice her age thereabouts? He's not an innocent here, and pretending he is just silly.
If anything about this should resound in your mind, it's this: if you meet a kick ass chick on the internet, and it turns out she's 14 or 15, do yourself a big favor, remind yourself that 18 months in jail and registering as a sex offender for the rest of your life is GETTING OFF EASY (and consider what happens to child molestors in jail), and keep your penis in your pants and tell her to contact you when she turns 18.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
You know, I wonder how Shik'll react when he gets out and visits the boards again, and reads all this. He'll probably tell Jeff and I to go to hell, but I don't think both of us can be there at once. Pauli exclusion principle or something. As I said in the now-locked thread, Jeff is correct, Shik is not blameless by any stretch of the imagination. Any young teenager's personality is going to change dramatically by the time they turn 18, and even if they consent they simply are not competent to do so, nor should they be. Mind you, I know quite a number of young girls at my church of whom I'm rather protective, so I may have a somewhat biased view, but...
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
I don't think Shik's side is totally unsympathetic, I just think he's been painted as the victim here and I don't think that's the situation by any stretch of the imagination. The girl in question, legally, can not consent to sex. She could've signed a contract in blood and it would still be null and void.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
quote:Holy shit. EIGHTEEN MONTHS? For a consentual (though illegal by law, I know) relationship that involved no abuse or violence of any kind?
Not to bring out the old arguement, but if she'd been ten and he'd been fifty, would you still be saying this? Shik is what, twice her age thereabouts? He's not an innocent here, and pretending he is just silly.
That's innane. She WAS'NT ten and he's NOT 50. By the same reasoning, if he was 60 and she ws 25 it's be okay? Just ask Michael Douglass. No, Shik was not blameless by any stretch but to say that a 15 year old is somehow incapable of decoding weither it's okay to have sex or not is to deny any intelligence in teens at all. Does her daddy chew her food and tie her shoes for her too? Turning 18 is no magic bullet that makes you grow up- many 15-16 year olds are more emotionally mature than their 40 year old parents.
While I was'nt there, it sure sounds like the girl's dad is freaking out over this in part because he blew it in the parenting department. Shik blew it by allowing his feelings (and hormones, no doubt) to override the potential legal risks...and now he's paying dearly as result.
So while shikkie does a year and a half in the stir, the same DA that was so gung-ho to put him there has doubtlessly cut deals with violent offenders for more leinent terms to avoid the hassle of trial. Shik was an example, if he's only comitted a more mainstream crime he'd probably have a suspended sentence.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"[I] am now temporarily homeless..."
Well, at least that problem's solved now, eh?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Depends on your definition of "home". "Home" is where you can drop the soap and not get nervous.
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
"many 15-16 year olds are more emotionally mature than their 40 year old parents"
Now, granted, it has been many years since 15/16, almost two decades now, but:
No.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
quote:That's innane. She WAS'NT ten and he's NOT 50. By the same reasoning, if he was 60 and she ws 25 it's be okay?
You have a brain, use it. If he was 60 and she was 25 she'd be over the age of consent and it wouldn't be statatory rape, would it? You don't quite grasp the concept that there are human beings known as "children" and human beings known as "adults." Adults are allowed to make decisions such as sleeping with much older or younger partners (providing it's both consentual and they're over the age of consent), while children are not. The girl in question cannot legally consent to sex.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The point is that while LEGALLY you are of course, quite correct, it was not as though she was held down or forced to have sex against her will. That is Rape. You are also right in saying that there is an age of consent and it is there for good reason, but don't believe that because she was 15 that she was intellectually incapable of choosing what to do with herself. By LAW it was not her choice to make, but if her parents (the same ones looking to throw away the key on Shik) were around, they might have asked about her personal life or if she's fucking anyone.
Once again, let me make clear, I am not condoning sex with 15 year olds, but I was stating that an age diffrence in and of itself does not alwayd make a relatinship wrong. The 18 year old age of consent is a relatively new thing to the world and even to our country in particular and while we both agree that 15 is too damn young, it was'nt always so.
So again, Shik is in jail while his ex-girl is doubtlessly doing all the same things with someone else (although probably closer to her own age group) and while daddy dearest considers this to be a one-time event of his "poor helpless baby" being molested, she's almost certainly putting out for someone new. I've yet to meet a girl that could'nt find a new guy or one that changed because their parents told them to.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
quote:"Home" is where you can drop the soap and not get nervous.
You should get that embroidered, and send it to him.
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
We know, and that's what some of us are bitching about -- the fact of the age of consent and the age of majority. Both are completely arbitrary. The age of majority is a simple line in the sand. Back in the eighteenth century, someone decided that before age eighteen a person isn't capable of thinking for themselves, but after eighteen they are. This of course makes no allowance for individual variation.
The age of consent is even messier, as it varies from state to state. If this had taken place in Georgia, for example, Lindsey's parents couldn't do a damn thing once she was over 16 (I can't remember at what point they found out and how long the legal mess has been dragging on). This also makes no allowance for individual variaion.
I've been a lot of places and met thousands of people in all age groups. Jason's point is fairly valid. I have met thirteen-year-olds (usually girls, this young) who are quite clear on who they are and what their life is about and are vastly more capable at taking care of themselves (if granted the means) than their parents are of taking care of them, or even themselves.
One case, omitting names, is a pretty extreme example, but makes a good illustration. She has known what she wants to do with her life since age eleven. She is now almost eighteen and that hasn't wavered. Her parents are extremely dysfunctional. Her mom lives in her own little universe, and probably hasn't heard a thing her daughter (or son or husband) has said in over a decade. Her dad occasionally smacks her upside the head for such wonderful reasons as accidentally grabbing the wrong burger out of the Jack-in-the-Box bag. Her younger brother is a pot-smoking burnout. He's been suspended twice for having marijuana pipes on him at school -- pipes he swiped from his parents' stash. This girl also frequently is home alone without anything to eat because no one's done any shopping, and her parents and brother aren't worried about it because they stopped by (for example) In & Out Burger on their way home and have eaten. There's a lot more, but that should give you an overview...
Now, I have also met the other extreme -- people in their fifties and sixties who still are incapable of making intelligent choices or managing their lives, so I know it cuts both ways.
I know the age of majority and the age(s) of consent are pegged at an age where the drafters of the legislation think they will protect the most innocents. However, I also think it's a pretty botch job, and I wish rather than just leaving things as they are, someone with a sociology degree would work up a way to allow for more individual variation.
I also think things should start much younger, with parents and teachers taking responsibility for instilling a firm moral compass, as well as nurturing critical thinking skills. I know one elementary school student (*holds up a hand*) who stagnated in school in first grade. I was already an accomplished reader from my own efforts and those of my mother. Among other incidents, I finished the first grade reader in a couple days of class time, reading ahead on my own, while marking the page where the class was reading aloud with a finger. My mom noticed I had finished it and asked the teacher and principal if I could be given the second grade reader. She was told I had to stay at the same level as the rest of the class.
Every individual varies as to when they are physically and emotionally prepared to engage in sexual activity. I'd been having fantasies about my female classmates since at least second grade. I was well-versed in theory. But I didn't have my first girlfriend until I was thirteen and I didn't lose my virginity until I was twenty-four. I knew what I was looking for, and I waited until I found it and knew it was the right thing to do for both of us.
My fiance� was much more of an early bloomer. Where I believe the average low-end age for menarche is about ten or eleven, she got hers when she was eight -- the summer before fourth grade. And she'd been developing in other ways for some time before then.
Again, it largely comes down to parental responsibility. Our parents made sure we knew what was what, how things worked, what sorts of considerations should be involved in those kinds of choices, and so on. We were a lot more prepared than kids who only get "don't have sex until you're married" from their parents, and a poorly-animated film in fifth grade to explain the mechanics. I have a friend in her early thirties who, at the time she got married, thought you got pregnant from kissing, had no clue what a penis was, or where it went. By her own account, she was pretty surprised that night.
So... Was Shik in the wrong? Yes, legally and technically. Morally? Ethically? Too many variables -- many of which are unknown to almost all of us -- to warrant passing judgment. Do her parents have a right to be upset? Hell, yes! Did they overreact? Quite probably. Their behaviour reminds me much of what happened after the Columbine shootings. Lots of finger-pointing, and no one who was accountable for those children taking responsibility for their failure to instill what they considered the proper moral compass.
Although, from what I've read of Lindsey's behaviour in the accounts here and in Shik's old blog, he was ascribing to her far more maturity than she actually possessed. Between not standing up to her parents to defend Shik and their relationship and her apparant lack of concern at the courtroom proceedings, I'd say life hasn't made much of an impact on her. And, as she's seventeen and almost to the age of majority, where she will thenceforth be accountable for her own development and life... Well, I don't have high hopes that she'll ever make much of a mark.
And that's my piece... --Jonah
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Well said.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by Malnurtured Snay:
quote:Holy shit. EIGHTEEN MONTHS? For a consentual (though illegal by law, I know) relationship that involved no abuse or violence of any kind?
Not to bring out the old arguement, but if she'd been ten and he'd been fifty, would you still be saying this? Shik is what, twice her age thereabouts? He's not an innocent here, and pretending he is just silly.
Well, then let me put it in simpler terms. I agree in the interpretation of the letter of the law. I agree with the intent of the law -- protecting younger individuals who (on average) are not fully capable of making informed decisions on their own. I agree that what Shik did was morally and ethically wrong based on my own personal beliefs.
I do NOT agree, however, that the punishment fits the crime. That's why my issue here is.
Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
The crime is RAPE. I think he's been very lucky to get off this easy.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
I think that maybe you're throwing too big a fit over legal semantics. Can we get SOME extenuation here?
As for the rest, I agree with Jonah.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
I'm fairly undecided. On the one hand, yes, obviously people mature at different rates.But on the other, you can't make it completely variable from person to person. Unless each kid gets a psychologist for their 10th birthday who has to follow them around every single day until they deam them fit enough to get their "I can have sex now" licence.
And physical and mental maturity can be fairly different too. A girl may start getting periods at age 8, but that doesn't mean that she is mentally capable of coping with a sexual relationship.
People are their own worst judges of maturity. How many people complained that they were being treated like a kid when they "obviously" weren't? How many people ever said "I'm really mature for my age"?
The varying age of consent for different states isn't a great argument either. You look hard enough, you'll find countries where kids can have sex at 12, or younger. Does that mean that we should make that the limit in our countries?
Unfortunatly, there is no flashing light that comes on when a person is ready for all of this. The age of consent is a neccessary evil to stop young people from being abused and/or manipulated. And I'd tend to prefer it err on the side of caution. So what if you think you're ready to have sex at 15? I thought I could drive a car at 12, and I still had to wait. You'll have the rest of your life to do the dirty, and if nothing else, it'll give you something to do on your 16th birthday.
Personally, I think the age gap is worse. I know that everyone can cit an example of someone they knew who didn't change at all between 12 and 25, in the same way that everyone seems to be able to cite an example of, well, pretty much anything you want, but the majority of people do change quite a bit between 15 and 25. Maybe not their initial surface personality, but deeper thoughts and feelings. It's one thing to have two people the same age going through that together, but it's fairly different to have someone going through it while their partner is worried about going bald and grey.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
word up.
Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
One case, omitting names, is a pretty extreme example, but makes a good illustration.
It's a good illustration of an extreme case. Yes, there are SOME teenagers like that, but the vast majority aren't.
I wish rather than just leaving things as they are, someone with a sociology degree would work up a way to allow for more individual variation.
Agreed. But until that happens, things can't change. Yeah, 18's an arbitrary line, but there has to be SOME arbitrary line.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Isn't it 16 in most US states?
Also, it's pretty clear from looking at the abitary lines that something is cleary wrong. You can have sex and make a life 5 years before you are allowed to drink beer? That's clearly wrong.
Posted by CaptainMike20X6 (Member # 709) on :
to cut down on fetal alcohol poisoning
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
And smoking?
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
*heh* Liam, remember that's the reason the voting age was lowered during the '60s. People were being drafted who had had no say in electing the administration that was drafting them.
But they still couldn't (and can't) legally drink for another three years, unless the laws of the country they are stationed in allow otherwise. Overseas posting is a wonderful thing for an eighteen-year-old enlistee.
Thank you for your comments. I can see there were still a couple areas where I was unclear in what I was trying to say, but I was worried about rattling on for too long...
Yes, I know physical maturity and intellectual/emotional maturity don't go hand-in-hand. I'm sorry if I implied that. What I was trying to conclude with that and my Columbine/Lindsey citation is that the minor's parents should take responsibility for establishing morality and self-discipline in their child. If something happens that they feel isn't in accordance with what they've been trying to teach, they need to make sure they know everything, and if they feel they need to take steps, to do so. But as the law is rather unsympathetic to extenuating circumstances, that should be the option of last resort rather than the first.
And that's also where I think I was going with my commentary about needing some system that allows for individual variation. I'm only an amateur sociologist, so I've only got a faint glimmer of what it looks like -- but parents are a big part of it. By actually being involved in their child's life and taking the appropriate steps at the appropriate times, they would be well-informed as to their child's level of maturity and development, wouldn't get surprised by something like this happening, and would have the ability to make allowances in the face of the letter of the law.
A child who is close to her parents would tell them about meeting someone she feels that strongly about, and could talk to them about her desires to become sexually active. A lot of you may be shaking your heads at this, but I wouldn't say it if I hadn't seen it in a few of my friends growing up, and me, as well. I had awesome parents. About their only failing in my upbringing was my mom's tendency to protect me and not encourage me to take risks. That's slowed things down in my life considerably, let me tell you.
But I told them everything, and still do. I knew if I did that I'd have more freedom than if I snuck around and was caught. By talking things out with them, they could gauge how well I knew what I was considering and make sure I either had any missing information or knew where to look for it. But Lindsey's parents seem to have done a spectacular job of raising a sheep.
--Jonah
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Age of consent is a toughie as people do mature at different rates. However there does have to be a line somewhere and 16 doesn't really seem that bad to me. By that stage a majority of people should have become both physically and mentally mature enough to have sex. Equally though modern society does seem to encourage earlier sex and promiscuity which does seem to have led to an explosion in STDs at the very least- I'm going to leave to arguement about desirable levels of morality alone for the moment.
I will say one thing though; at 16 you can get married, have a family, join the armed forces and sell scrap metal, but you can't vote. Why? I can't see how things can get any worse if 16 and 17 year olds are given the vote.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
All I want from this thread are more alternative names for jail. I really love those. The big house. Stir. Lockdown. The pokey. Calaboose. The hoosegaw. (gow?)
Posted by Peregrinus (Member # 504) on :
I've always had a warm spot in my heart for oubliette. Not technically a jail or prison as such, but...
--Jonah
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
The klink Upstate The Stir The Joint
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
TEH SLAMMAR!! Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Tim will probably abuse me for this, but some old fuddy duddies over here still spell it "gaol". Yes, honest.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
And isn't that pronounced with a hard G sound, as in "gay-ol"?
(Sorry, that'd just be begging for an "UP TEH BUTT!!1!!1" joke, wouldn't it?)
Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
Jail itself is one big setup for the Up The Butt.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
quote:Originally posted by MinutiaeMan: And isn't that pronounced with a hard G sound, as in "gay-ol"?
No. it's pronouced "jay-el". Do not ask me why it was changed. I will not answer.
Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
Needed: sodomy gag, running, mint condition, catchy.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
Like this perhaps?
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Smurfette was over-rated. Like Cheetara.
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
The grey bar hotel. What movie was this prison synonym used in? (Hint: Krenim)
Posted by MaGiC (Member # 59) on :
Just have to ask...but does anyone know which prison (gaol, clink, slammer etc..) Shik is in? His actual name would be good too...I would really like to drop him a line...or three.
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote: Isn't it 16 in most US states?
It is in West Virginia, or so a lawyer once told me.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
quote:Originally posted by MaGiC: Just have to ask...but does anyone know which prison (gaol, clink, slammer etc..) Shik is in? His actual name would be good too...I would really like to drop him a line...or three.
Magic, check your PM's. If anyone else doesn't know and would like to have it, drop me a line. (I figure it's probably not appropriate to post it publicly on a message board at the moment...)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
COunt me in. I'll drop him a line if ya PM me with his mailing address. Any little thing we can do to make his time easer is good Karma for me. (and fuck knows I need it, amn)
Posted by MaGiC (Member # 59) on :
Don't have a postal address...does anyone know which court his trial was at?
Posted by MaGiC (Member # 59) on :
Dur..Ignore me its the first post in this thread
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
quote: (I figure it's probably not appropriate to post it publicly on a message board at the moment...)
Not in these circumstances, to be sure. Just FYI, everyone. I mean, not that I expect anyone to do it. But I get so few opportunities to make official pronouncements.
Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
Or is it announcement?
Whatever.
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Update: I've fired off an e-mail request to the MD DOC for contact info -- hopefully, I'll get a quick response there. I'll let everyone know when I've got it ASAP. Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
FRELL.
Does anyone know any of Shik's information aside from name, gender, and date of birth (which is in his profile)? I got a (prompt) response from the DOC, but they said that no record was found. Posted by Cartmaniac (Member # 256) on :
"Or is it announcement?"
Pronouncement. Do not question The Celestial Body.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
He's become an unperson, broken down for spare parts for the elite!
Posted by Kosh (Member # 167) on :
quote:Originally posted by Lee: He's become an unperson, broken down for spare parts for the elite!
Or being held on an island off the coast of europe, being called Number 6.
I hope the guys alright. Our prison system is really nothing to joke about, and the reasons he went will make it tougher on him.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
From what my nephew has said had he killed a cop he'd get better treatment from the others there, butt now....
I do wish him luck....
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
If he'd killed a cop, he'd probably be Big Man on Cell-Block, as far as the inmates were concerned.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ritten: From what my nephew has said had he killed a cop he'd get better treatment from the others there, butt now....
I'm sure there are more unfortunate typos to make in this thread but that has to be up there... Posted by Ultra Magnus (Member # 239) on :
It's like it wasn't unintentional.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :
Hey guys, I *finally* got Shik's contact information! I was given a runaround via e-mail, and they gave me a phone number to call. After being left on hold for a while, I finally got an address where letters and the like can be sent.
Anyone interested can send me a PM, and I'll pass it on.
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