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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,29,13,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 29, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Okay.. so I have this little website, with a little <a href="http://fleetyard.host.sk/science/federation/members.php" target="_blank">UFP database</a>. Now, it all works fine and validates for XHTML 1.0 Strict, and for CSS. So it <i>works</i>.<br /><br />And there you have fucking Internet Explorer, with it's flawed box model and it seems to completely destroy the layout. On my machine anyway.<br /><br />Now.. I don't really want to think up even more tricks to cope with IE's annoying bugs. And as a matter of fact, no visitor (assuming most people still mindlessly use IE) has ever even bothered to point it out to me.<br /><br />IE seems to be optimized for badly designed layouts using tables and the whole spectrum of propietary or otherwise deprecated tags. Bah.<br /><br />So, fellow webmasters, should I still bother about jumping through hoops to support browsers that don't support web-standards? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,29,14,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 29, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:46 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I don't bother fixing my code for IE. From everything I'd read before, anything that works for Mozilla should not be actually ruined by IE.<br /><br />If you decide to try to compensate for M$'s lazy programming, there is one trick I've heard of: apparently, all versions of IE are incapable of recognizing the "@import" rule in CSS. So basically, you would use the normal "link" method to create an IE-compatible stylesheet, and then use the @import rule to make another one for Mozilla, Safari and other DECENT browsers.<br /><br />Of course, that means more work for you... Otherwise, I'd just come up with a JavaScript or a PHP function that'll create a notice for any IE browsers that the CSS styles won't function properly in their browser. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,30,8,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 30, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:20 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yes, do that. Because pissing off the 90% of people who use IE is a great way to get people going to your web-site.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Harry:<br /><strong> So, fellow webmasters, should I still bother about jumping through hoops to support browsers that don't support web-standards? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunatly, since the vast, vast majority of people use Internet Explorer, then it is the defacto "Web-standard". Ignoring it is bad business sense, and at the very least, alienates a large portion of your potential fanbase. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,30,11,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 30, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:01 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> There's a cool new feature in Dreamweaver MX 2004 -- it's a built-in browser check function that can analyze your web page and find what HTML or CSS styles will cause display problems inside a specific browser.<br /><br />And it's not just a generic "Netscape or IE" check, either. You can check for individual versions of each browser (like IE 6.0, 5.5, 5.0, and 4.0). Besides Netscape and IE (both back to version 3.), it also includes Mozilla, Opera (back to version 2.1), and Safari.<br /><br />With my site, I've found that the only problem I've got with IE is that the CSS media types are not recognized properly. That's an inconvenience, but I worked around that by changing the order of my LINK tags, so that the screen one was last and will have precedence over the previous stylesheets.<br /><br />Frustrating, I know... but I figure, if people are gullible enough to still be using IE, they don't deserve to have a fine viewing experience. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <br /><br />(Maybe all you should do, Harry, is place a JavaScript disclaimer that will be inserted into the page for anyone using IE, saying that you're not responsible for any flaws in the page rendering, and tell them to go download a REAL browser!) <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Charles Capps</b> <br /><small>Member # 9</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,30,12,37,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 30, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:37 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> One of the more popular trends in bleeding-edge development is to treat IE like we treated Netscape 4 ages ago.<br /><br />In short - first, make your site work in IE. Then enhance it to work with better browsers, leaving IE with a less-than-optimal user experience, even though the site "works." (We do that here at Flare... the styles for form elements, for instance, are much more consistant in Mozilla than IE, because Mozilla understands how to do a subset of the proposed CSS3 selectors.)<br /><br />(FYI - @import itself is used to filter out NS4... the mis-use of @import is known as the <a href="http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/highpass.html" target="_blank">high pass filter</a> for IE. It only works in versions prior to 6.0, however. For 6.0+, you'll need to use <a href="http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/" target="_blank">some other set of rules</a>, such as the <a href="http://www.info.com.ph/~etan/w3pantheon/style/starhtmlbug.html" target="_blank">star bug</a>.)<br /><br />Then start speaking of the nifty things on the site... for instance, dropdown/pullout menus based on nothing more than lists and links. Then say something to the effect of "But those won't work in IE, because IE doesn't know how to handle such new techniques."<br /><br />Don't try mentioning web standards or anything like that... and don't say "works best in X browser" either... that's so 1997. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Users generally won't care about web standards.<br /><br />Users with a clue will take the suggestion and try out a more modern browser... users without a clue will be using IE6 years and years from now, just as ~1% of the web still uses NS4. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,8,30,14,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">September 30, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:05 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Don't try mentioning web standards or anything like that... and don't say "works best in X browser" either... that's so 1997. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Users generally won't care about web standards.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">LOL! Yeah, that's a good point. In that case, I'd suggest that you put up one of those badges in your site's footer, so people can check the validation themselves. Just something you tacitly point to and say, "See? There's nothing wrong with my site!" <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,9,1,7,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 01, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:12 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Thanks for pointing out the star bug, Charles. <br /><br />That will sort out the problems with most IE versions. And people with old versions of IE should just go away <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>MinutiaeMan</b> <br /><small>Member # 444</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2003,9,2,11,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">October 02, 2003</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:30 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> You may be interested in this brief treatment of the CSS-P capabilities of various browsers, Harry:<br /><a href="http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/wpd1003.htm#feature" target="_blank">http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/wpd1003.htm#feature</a> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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