Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Oh, come off it!

This is topic Oh, come off it! in forum Officers' Lounge at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

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Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I've been using Firefox for about a month now, and so far I like it. Not so sure about its habit of returning to the top of the previous page whenever I hit the Back button, and I've yet to figure out why the tables on my website looks so strange when viewed through Firefox.

But the large message that's just appeared on the Flare main-page saying that everyone should stop using Internet Explorer? Or, to quote it in full, "The use of Microsoft Internet Explorer is a danger to the internet. Please switch to Mozilla Firefox or another alternative browser. This message will persist until you do so. We're that serious about it." Get real. For instance, I'm writing this at work where we don't have any choice but to use IE. IT departments generally take a dim view of people loading unauthorised software on company PCs.

Perhaps people who have jobs don't fir the Flare profile anymore. Or am we to be banned from posting here during work hours? Why not just ban anyone who posts using IE? It's just plain stupidity.

And those of you that survive the purge can just hope and pray that Charles doesn't become a Machead. . . 8)

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

I'm curious to know how it's a "danger to the internet"? Does it have links with Al-Quaeda?

Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :

It has links with al-Qaeda-type terrorists. There's a difference.

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :

It is a pretty lame header- Is Flare sponsored my Mozilla now?
I thought someone hacked the forum at first...

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Apparently you haven't heard of the latest IE security flaw.

A specially crafted JPEG image can now cause a buffer overflow, leading to arbritary code execution. In other words, an image can hijack your computer. This is basically a nightmare.

~95% of internet users use IE. All of them are therefore vulnerable to this issue. And this doesn't even begin to touch all the programs that use the IE rendering engine...

IE has had an increasing history of critical issues, this being the latest and most absolutely insane. IE is a danger to the stability of the internet.

If you use IE by choice, then you are absolutely nuts. That's the final word on the subject.

Now, of course, sometimes you have to use IE, either by work policy or by being unable to install an alternative browser. BFHD, so you now see a red splotch on the Flare frontpage. The world is not coming to an end.

You should raise the continued IE security issues, including the idiocy of the latest, with your IT department and encourage them to consider bailing. Chances are that they're tied to a third party vendor that uses some IE-only idiocy in an application in use by your employer. That third party vendor must also be encouraged to open their application up to other browsers.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I totally abandoned Internet Explorer a few weeks ago.

(I think a case could be made for a sizable chunk of internet maliciousness being made possible by IE, not just because it is the most popular browser, but because of its host of known security holes. But this does sound a bit like overkill.)

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I've been on Mozilla Firefox for two days now, I like it. Screw IE.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

But sticking large bits of red text up isn't going to change that. You might as well replace the words "Microsoft Internet Explorer" therein with "TEH Micro$haft INTERNET EXPLOITER!!" It's not cool. It's much less welcoming.* And it solves nothing.

*Not that I'm one to talk about being less welcoming round here.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I love you, Lee. [Smile]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Since it is at issue here: Microsoft Warns of Critical JPEG Flaw

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

quote:
Microsoft rates the flaw "important" for many of its products, but "critical" for Outlook versions 2002 and 2003, Internet Explorer 6 with Service Pack 1, Windows XP and Windows XP with Service Pack 1, Windows Server 2003, and the .Net Framework 1.0 with Service Pack 2 and .Net Framework 1.1, according to the Security Bulletin.

Well, I'm SP-2ed on both IE and XP, and don't have any of the other products. And what they say hardly justifies a blanket "We don't serve your kind here!" warning for 95% of the global netusers.

Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :

HOw is a JPEG imbedded with nastiness?
I take it this is some fuck-o at work and not a design flaw with loading the file?

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Okay security flaw, fine.

Does it affect your site?

If not, then I think the message right on the front is a bit overkill.

Perhaps moving it to the bottom and making the font smaller would be less of a shocker and a distraction.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"And what they say hardly justifies a blanket "We don't serve your kind here!" warning for 95% of the global netusers."

Well, it doesn't say "we don't serve your kind here". It says "hey, your browser is awful". It's not like the page won't load in IE, or something.

I've been thinking for a while about switching the computers at work to some form of Mozilla, but I haven't done it for two reasons: 1. When members of the general public sit down and find an unfamiliar browser and get snippy about it, I'm the one who's going to have to deal with them, and 2. I just made all the staff switch to IE because most of them were still using Netscape 4; I'll surely hear complaints if I tell them to switch again.

However, it may be worth it. Images, the second-most common medium on the Web after text, can be used to hijack your computer? That's just getting ridiculous.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

quote:
SNOW CRASH
tear this card in
half to release your free sample

Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :

I prefer Opera more than Firefox... then again I can use Tab in Mozilla more.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

The notice is in a big red box not because this site is impacted, but because the word needs to get out there, and I could think of no less effective way of making people pay attention than something in your face and irksome, as opposed to highly annoying.

Seriously, who pays attention to the announcement forum? Certainly not the half dozen people from Earthlink with their spam blocker enabled that have tried to sign up in the past few months.

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
Anti-IE Stuff

With thousands of smelly Linux zealots poking and prodding every line of Microsoft code instead of showering, yes, the vulnerabilities in IE are going to be revealed and exploited. If Mozilla or any other alternative browser held 95 percent of the market, there would be more and more people trying to exploit it.

Additionally, while buffer overflow puts a user�s pc at risk it in no way endangers �the internet�. Anyone who regularly uses Windows Update, a decent virus scan, and a good firewall is protected from most of the exploits out there.

There�s no real reason to botch your own website or forums to force others into conforming to your opinions and standards, but that choice is definitely yours to make. I love flare and would visit even if you put a giant goatse in front of every page.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

How on Earth do you justify the term "botch" there?

Posted by School of Nim (Member # 205) on :

Why does everybody seem to think that Microsoft won't release a patch in the coming month that fixes this alleged jpeg-handling error? It's in their best interests.

I tried Firefox for a while, three months back, but I didn't like it. Something about the bookmark-system or something, there was something that couldn't be configured or changed, and it vexed me. Yes, I was thoroughly vexed.

I know it only hurts for a while to change programs, I've done it before, this time I just didn't feel I had enough of a need to.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I agree, the bookmark system is annoying. I still tend to use the Start/Favourites menu to launch the web sites I wish to visit; since Firefox is set as my default browser, the Favourites still open in it - yet I get an annoying message that says the file cannot be found.

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :

The patch is already available (it was announced with the declaration of vulnerability), and in order for the vulnerability to affect anyone the following things have to happen:

1. Someone has to make an image that exploits the flaw. None are yet known.

2. You have to go to a site or open an e-mail containing an affected .jpg image.

3. You must have failed to update your computer.

Now I'm no fan of Microsoft or its Internet Exploder either, but to declare Internet Exploder a danger to the internet in more than a joking way is silly. Declaring IE a danger to the internet because there are 'computer terrorists' out there who, in their effort to harm the most people, target the most popular software is wrong. That's on par with declaring free and open first-world societies (where terrorism is directed) wrong because they are a danger to the citizenry.

On my site as of this writing, 95.4 percent of my readers use Windows, and 79.6 percent use some form of IE. I imagine that the statistics here are similar.

I tried Opera . . . used it at work for a long time for my personal surfing. I couldn't stand all the rendering errors, compatibility problems, and unwritten plug-ins. I tried Mozilla, and had the same issues. Now I simply use SlimBrowser, which takes all of the good features like multi-tabbed browsing but does it by using the IE engine. I couldn't be happier.

Unless and until those other browsers resolve their issues, I have no intention of switching. Keep the obnoxious banner ad for Mozilla if you wish, but I hope that contributing forum members like myself don't find it so annoying that they stop coming here to participate.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

quote:
The patch is already available

I update my computer on a regular basis, so I'd like to have a possibility to get rid of that warning.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

"the word needs to get out there..."

It's your board, but if you think you're going to get the word out there just by yelling a random anti-IE slogan at the dumb ignorant masses like some overzealous internevangelist on a crusade, you've got the wrong idea about public relations.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

quote:
dumb ignorant masses

That isn't exactly how I'd classify the majority of the people here at Flare.

The JPEG flaw is not the end of the world, it's the straw that broke the camel's back.

Yesterday, I spent a few hours helping a new coworker clean out his personal machine, with a few others. In the six weeks that he'd had the machine, the use of an unprotected IE had resulted in over THREE DOZEN varieties of malware being installed, including one that completely hijacks IE itself and prevents it from doing pretty much anything.

All this happened ONLY from using IE. The continued use of IE by anybody (even educated users) places their computers are a continuous risk of getting fucked over.

And yes, this IS a danger to the internet. The ability to randomly take over the computer of anyone that visits a webpage, just because they're using a certain browser, is the most incredibly scary thing I've had to think about in a very long time.

quote:
poking and prodding every line of Microsoft code

They can't. MS doesn't release its code to the general public. On the other hand, Mozilla does. For five years, that code has been under public scruitiny. The process of open source allows and encourages people to find problems, and for problems to be fixed quickly by a community.

Firefox has indeed has had its share of security issues. However, the Mozilla team tends to fix things in a matter of hours instead of days, weeks, or months.

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

But that warning message is annoying and borders on spam. I guess I'll have to avoid the main page in the future.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

You're going to avoid the main page because a ~50 pixel tall red block is there now? As opposed to trying a browser that doesn't suck fifteen levels of ass, or just ignoring the block. [Confused]

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

1.) I don't want to switch to another browser as I'm quite confident with IE. Besides, I've tried Netscape and Mozilla but didn't like them.

2.) I find that block very annoying.

Best solution: Avoid main page.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Have you tried Firefox itself? While it's based on the Gecko rendering engine, the user interface has little to do with the Mozilla Suite, and therefore Netscape 6/7.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

1.) I don't want to switch to another browser as I'm quite confident with IE.

Say it with me, now:

IT'S A FREAKING BROWSER!

You click links. You push a few buttons. Occasionally you go to a bookmark or type a url. Yeah, there are preferences and bookmark editing, but both seem pretty well intuitive to me. What exactly are you doing with a browser that requires you to be confident with it?

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

*facepalm*

Posted by Spike (Member # 322) on :

[Big Grin]

Sorry, I meant "content".

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

So what? We've got to stop using IE in order to continue using this forum & the Internet? Not likely! I'm quite happy with IE and have no intention of changing and risk messing my system up (again)! Besides I've got protection - Norton Systemworks and Firewall 2004 - isn't that good enough?

If someone can PROVE that Firefox is better and IE is dying then I'm sticking with IE. Charles - please remove the warning, it's served its purpose. Plus it bugs me.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

Obviously this is Charles' site and he may do as he pleases.

But personally I prefer Windows and IE to the so-called "alternative" operating systems and browsers, and hearing them constantly bemoaned by zealots (I agree that this is an appropriate term) wears very thin, very fast. Like it or not, Microsoft set the standard and many, MANY poeple---a majority, even---continue to use and be satisfied with it. And I find that banner to be overly alarmist, extremely biased, and somewhat distasteful. He could just as easily have posted an FYI topic in the Officer's Lounge or Incoming Hails forums.

But, oh well, he is da man...

-MMoM [Big Grin]

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

quote:
Charles - please remove the warning, it's served its purpose. Plus it bugs me.

Oh, that's going to work.

Personally, I'm going to advocate the technique known as scrolling.

Scroll down, box = gone.

Posted by Wes (Member # 212) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
*facepalm*

Damn! you beat me to it!

http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3408301

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
[QUOTE]They can't. MS doesn't release its code to the general public. On the other hand, Mozilla does. For five years, that code has been under public scruitiny. The process of open source allows and encourages people to find problems, and for problems to be fixed quickly by a community.

Firefox has indeed has had its share of security issues. However, the Mozilla team tends to fix things in a matter of hours instead of days, weeks, or months.

The process of open source allows for very small profit margins. By code i didnt actually mean 'source'. Regaurdless. You win. I'm using Opera again.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

"That isn't exactly how I'd classify the majority of the people here at Flare."

No, neither would I, but that IS how you're labeling them by slamming a bigass red box in their faces and blaring out that they're endangering the internet with every IE session they start. I mean, for the "fuck"'s sake.

Now, much as it may appall you or me, there are people who will never try anything (be it a browser or an OS or whatever) other than what they know, either because they're uninterested in the alternatives (which is a shame but their good right) or because they're unaware of them (which is also a shame but not one alleviated by ramming your personal favorites down their throats), and those will always form the largest group in your visitor base, so think about wether what you're doing is productive here.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Last night I had a periodic clean-out of my cookies, and cleaned them from Firefox for the first time. Question is, does that button you can tick that says "do not accept cookies from sites that you remove" do any good?

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

I meant no offence Charles!

The banner is a bit insulting and distastful - all IE sessions destroy the Internet. Like Cartman said: "for the "fuck"'s sake".

I'm not having a go at you personally Charles, just the way you chose to display your view. Like The Mighty Monkey of Mim said: "could just as easily have posted an FYI topic in the Officer's Lounge or Incoming Hails forums." Now that I would have preferred and read and taken under serious advisement. [Smile]

I'd like to know how the forum site will know whether I've changed to Firefox and thus remove the annoying "in-your-face-and-insulting" banner.

The only real things that you've achieve is:

a) scare me even more about technology,
b) offend me by implying that I'm a danger to the Internet and other users (which is probably true anyway! [Razz]

), and
c) totally and utterly confused me! [Confused]

The Microsoft site states:

"Important Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2) is not affected by this issue. Windows XP SP2 users only need to update Office (if installed)."

So if I install the SP2 from the disk that I have, does that mean that I only need to update Office XP? I've just checked the site - can't do it on a 56K connection, with a 4 hour time limit! 195 mins to do download the office update. In fairness to my family I can't be on that long!

How do you spot this jpeg thingy anyway? [Confused]

HELP!

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

I just recently installed WinXP SP2 on my new system, and on the high priority list of updates was the GDI+ image thingy. But I use Firefox anyways. Except when I'm at the university, that is.

Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :

Hey, kids... come on.... don't you all think you're taking this Warning Box thing a little too seriously? It's not that big of a deal. It's a warning message. Whoopdeedo!I mean, if we look at the grand scheme of things in life, there are wars, people dying, hurricaines invading, and any number of other WAY more important things to get riled up about. Calm down. Charles is just trying to get the word out about the major suck that is the IE. He's made his point. REALLY well, I'd say, seeing how so many people are taking this as a constitutional offense... oy. If you don't wanna switch to a different browser, then don't. Give it a few days and that warning message will seem as familiar as the Flare logo on the top of the page. No sense getting your panties in a bunch.

Yeesh. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

akb1979:

quote:
We've got to stop using IE in order to continue using this forum & the Internet?

Got to? No. Should? Yup.

quote:
PROVE that Firefox is better

It is. Read: http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/why/

quote:
IE is dying

IE is dead. This has been known for a year. Read: http://news.com.com/2100-1032-1011859.html

The next major version, meaning a version with changed rendering or user interface components, will be out with Longhorn, in two years.

quote:
I'd like to know how the forum site will know whether I've changed to Firefox

It only displays for people using IE.

Lee:

quote:
Question is, does that button you can tick that says "do not accept cookies from sites that you remove" do any good?

I've never used that, but I'd imagine that it works as advertised. I'd advise trying it out here, as I know the cookies work here, but I don't know how to unblock blocked sites... unless it inserts them on the normal blocked sites list.

And finally...

quote:
Hey, kids... come on.... don't you all think you're taking this Warning Box thing a little too seriously?

What she said. Jeez, really.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Well I'm not changing. The red ads a nice splash of colour to the front page! [Smile]

I took years to swap from Netscape - so I'm not going to change from IE very soon.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Fine, about security flaws etc. etc. Can I just say how IRONIC it is that about 3 years ago, I was using Netscape and more and more I was told to use IE - that it was far more superior now to Netscape etc. etc. and then I HAD to change to IE because the pages on here weren't being displayed properly. *roll eyes*

Posted by MinutiaeMan (Member # 444) on :

Andrew: That's because IE still was a step up from old Netscape 4. But IE is currently a browser that hasn't added any major features save popup blocking in the past three years or so, while Firefox is still pushing ahead.

Think of it this way:
NS4 < IE < Firefox

You've made one step up. Now we're saying it's best to go further.

What so many people are failing to realize is that IE is an evolutionary dead end; it's not being developed, and the only thing that Microsoft's working on is adding a few minor features to update it. They've made a big show of opening up their IE blog and similar stuff, but they still haven't promised to add support for recent standards, and they're not going to be delivering it anytime soon. Plus, IE is so full of security holes, it makes Swiss cheese look leak-proof.

So many people think that poorly-performing computers are just the way things are. They don't realize that there IS a better alternative. Using different software doesn't have to be the end of the world!

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :

How about a "this site best viewed with Mozilla Firefox" thingy instead of an angry red box and declarations that IE users are nuts?

My apologies if I came off poorly earlier, but the questionable diplomatic skills spread. Charles was big enough to own up to Mozilla's faults, we can all agree that Microsoft is the software company of the damned, so let's all be happy. [Smile]

I do have Linux on this machine, after all. I rarely use it because all my really-kickass tools and games are in IE, but still.

Posted by Frankenerd (Member # 1385) on :

What is IE? An opperating system? I know that all you Geeks and Nerds, ( Said with utmost respect from a wana be!!!) think that Windows is the pits to be polite. But as one who is new to the PERSONAL COMPUTER, ( before retirement, I used mainfraims and had programers to make my flow charts into programs for the Cray-205, TACOSS-III was my baby) I find Windows delightful! EVERYTHING I BUY FOR IT WORKS! When my computer nerd-genius-bro-in-law takes me to the computer show to shop for new software or bits for inside the box, I am amaised at the stuff that works with Windows. At my favorite software vendor's (2 ea.) THERE ARE 3 1/2 TABLES OF SOFTWARE FOR WINDOWS AND 1/2 TABLE TO HOLD EVERYTHING ELSE!!!!!! I mean apple, commodore, unix, linix and all the others combined don't cover half of ONE TABLE!!!!

For a complete nummy like me, IT IS THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN!!!!!!! I just wish that someone made a combat flight sim were the user could program in new plane's charicteristics.

Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :

What?

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

IE is Internet Explorer, the Microsoft browser that typically accompanies a Windows operating system.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by akb1979:
So if I install the SP2 from the disk that I have, does that mean that I only need to update Office XP? I've just checked the site - can't do it on a 56K connection, with a 4 hour time limit! 195 mins to do download the office update. In fairness to my family I can't be on that long!

I think it might be on the CD that comes with "The Official Windows XP Magazine". Try looking in WHSmiths.

Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :

You can also order XP's SP2 on CD free of charge.

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

quote:
Originally posted by deadcujo:
What?

Give the new guy a chance. Not everyone here is young and knows a lot of modern computer technology. As long as he is willing to learn along the way and not making a complete ass of himself, we should help him when he needs it and not make him look like a big idiot. After, he can turn the tables on us.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"As long as he is ... not making a complete ass of himself..."

Erm, well...

Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :

My only real problem with FF is that some pages take forever to load even with my cable connection and FF won't let me click on a link until the page has finished loading.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Like it or not, Microsoft set the standard

Oh?

MANY poeple---a majority, even---continue to use and be satisfied with it.

And if all your friends were running an insecure and dangerous program on their computers-- oh, wait... [Big Grin]

I find that banner to be overly alarmist, extremely biased

Hehe. That'd be like saying that declaring war on Hitler after he invaded Poland was alarmist, and that saying that he'd just invaded Poland was biased. (Yay for Godwin's law!) And just because it was in a video I watched tonight, "After annexing the Sudetenland and the remainder of Czechoslovokia, Shakespeare invaded Poland in September of 1939..."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Shakespeare did? All by himself?

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
I think it might be on the CD that comes with "The Official Windows XP Magazine". Try looking in WHSmiths.

I already have the SP2 disk - from the PC Gamer mag. It says that it'll take about 2 hours to install & take 1.8-2.0 GB of my hard drive space. So, does that cover the Windows update and the Office update or just the Windows update? [Confused]

LOA - see, all it takes is a woman to put us all straight! [Big Grin]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Yes, this is EXACTLY LIKE HITLER. GOOD CATCH!

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Well ignoring IE for a moment, at the end of 02 when I just had gotten my new computer - Microsoft released a windows update (that was automatically downloaded by my computer at a time when it was wee early hours in the US - day time here) and the next time i turned on my computer it just kept restarting. Subsequently after talking to microsoft support (who denied anywrong doing) and the place I bought the computer from (who were swamped by hundreds of customer's requests for help) my computer was wiped. Since then I had auto update disengaged.

I then go to load all the new updates at a later stage - can't. Well I can but one of them TOTALLY ruins the screen colour settings - i.e. the toolbars, Start button popup menus etc etc are all BLACK - background and text. You can't see anything - you can't even change it back. So I have to delete that update. I tried getting the free CD from microsoft that had all the current updates on it - and it happened again. I haven't updated since. NOW this SP2 comes out - BUT I doubt I'd be able to utilise it's updates as I don't have the earlier updates - and if i did they just stuff up the settings anyway. So what do you do?

Andrew

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

AndrewR - that's all sounds terrible. I've never updated Windows due to having a dial-up connection and I have my doubts about the SP2 disk.

I'm doing #1 & #3 of Microsoft's recommended ways to proect my PC (Firewall & uptodate virus definition), and I've never had any major problems so I think that I'll stick with what I've got.

I have, however, downloaded Firefox and it's e-mail program. Should I ever update my PC again (i.e. start with a new HDD) I might very well consider using these alternatives, but as it's only v0.8 I think that I might wait a while. I wann give it a few years to get its bugs sorted out and who knows, in that time you might be suggesting someone else who's made even more improvements than Firefox! [Big Grin]

Right now my PC isn't broken, so I'm not going to mess with it - I'm going to play it safe for now. I also don't have the money or the time to spare tinkering with changing things. My PC does what I want it to (surf Net, play games, word process) - so I'm happy. [Smile]

Thanks for the warning though (needs changing to avoid being insulting - LOA's idea sounds the best) - I have taken it under advisement, done a bit of research, and will keep it in mind if and when things go horribly wrong. [Smile]

Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :

On the plus side, I DO have to say thank you to Charles for making everyone's blood pressure shoot through the roof over this... it FINALLY added some excitement to the place. For the first time in a LONG time I actually can check the Forums and laugh.

Thanks to Charles, and thanks to all the little people... you all have brightened my day and lit up my life.

I think I need to take more medication.

~LOA

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by LOA:
Thanks to Charles, and thanks to all the little people... you all have brightened my day and lit up my life.

I think I need to take more medication.

~LOA

LOL! Happy to have been of service! [Big Grin]

I agree with you LOA, we need more fun here as just lately it feels a little stale. [Frown]

Of course there's a charge for this service - my invoice is in the post. You should receive it within a week and must pay by the end of the month! HEHE! [Big Grin]

Posted by deadcujo (Member # 13) on :

[Confused]

Posted by an'on (Member # 222) on :

This is far more entertaining and less SCARY than another passionate argument I have read recently.

The topic was more combustible than browsers�propane. They argued over the safety, convenience, odds of something bad happening, and lack of safety over an rv/travel trailer/5th wheel/camper traveling down the road with propane gas on and flame/spark creating devices (hot water tank heater, heater, fridge) running.

Scary is that most thought little of turning it off for going down the road and only sometimes remembered to turn the gas and/or flame devices off when they refueled at gas stations.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by akb1979:
I've never updated Windows due to having a dial-up connection and I have my doubts about the SP2 disk.

Don't come crying to me when your computer gets infected with some evil icky virus exploiting a flaw in MSN Messenger, then.

quote:
I already have the SP2 disk - from the PC Gamer mag. It says that it'll take about 2 hours to install & take 1.8-2.0 GB of my hard drive space.

I'm not sure that's right. I've just downloaded it, and once the download had finished it probably took around 15-20 minutes to actually install. I didn't check how much hard drive space it took up, but as I've got at least 40 gig free I'm not too bothered.

And I'm lazy to do a seperate quote box for Andrew, so I'll just answer it here...downloading SP2 would include all the previous updates. I'd say that you could use System Restore if it goes wrong, but that would be hard to do if the computer keeps resetting.

I'm curious as to what the problem is. I'm a bit sceptical about that "helpdesk having hundreds of queries", because millions of people obviously installed that update without any trouble. And why on Earth did they have to wipe your computer? Wouldn't it load up in safe mode? Couldn't they just do a repair installation of Windows?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"And I'm lazy to do a seperate quote box for Andrew..."

Too lazy to type "too" it seems, also.

Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
I'm not sure that's right. I've just downloaded it, and once the download had finished it probably took around 15-20 minutes to actually install. I didn't check how much hard drive space it took up, but as I've got at least 40 gig free I'm not too bothered.

...downloading SP2 would include all the previous updates.

Oh? 15-20 minutes and it has all previous updates with it? Well yeah in that case I might do it, but first I need some DVD+R's or DVD+RW's to backup "My Documents" incase everything goes wrong - must remember to order them . . . note to self . . . [Smile]

quote:
I'm curious as to what the problem is. I'm a bit sceptical about that "helpdesk having hundreds of queries", because millions of people obviously installed that update without any trouble. And why on Earth did they have to wipe your computer? Wouldn't it load up in safe mode? Couldn't they just do a repair installation of Windows?

Um, not being too technically minded but - yeah I would have thought that they would have gone through safe mode too - wiping it just seems silly to me as it's a bugger to have to start all over again! [Frown]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by akb1979:

And I'm lazy to do a seperate quote box for Andrew, so I'll just answer it here...downloading SP2 would include all the previous updates. I'd say that you could use System Restore if it goes wrong, but that would be hard to do if the computer keeps resetting.

I'm curious as to what the problem is. I'm a bit sceptical about that "helpdesk having hundreds of queries", because millions of people obviously installed that update without any trouble. And why on Earth did they have to wipe your computer? Wouldn't it load up in safe mode? Couldn't they just do a repair installation of Windows?

OK, It's a long and arduous tale, but I'll flesh it out even more. My theory (and a few others) is that because it was the 'wee hours' for the States when Australia is 'awake' they had uploaded a stuffed new update, and we happened to cop the stuffed version - before they replaced it - which 'miraculously' happened at about 4pm that afternoon. It was a Saturday our time, and I got to the computer store they were run off their feet trying to answer phones go to businesses that they had sold computers to etc. ANYWAY - They took my computer in and were going to fix it.

Fine at that time. I got home and rang Microsoft naiviely thinking they might give me some answers. They denied everything, and said that they had had no complaints or tech queries about said problem. So I explained to the desk idiot what had happened and he said 'oh do you have your computer there' and i said 'no I returened it to it's place of purchase (a microsoft certified vendor etc etc.) he said 'oh no, no you should have rung us first - you should always ring us first (yeah right) go and retreive your computer and ring us back. So I stupidly did - after that guy going on about how Microsoft are supposed to deal with problems that i had mentioned etc. So while they were in the middle of doing a 'mirror' of my computer back at the shop - I asked them if I could take my computer home and bring it back - and if stopping in the middle of a 'mirror' would stuff the computer (the dweeb working at the store said no, that is fine).

Get the computer home, ring back the microsoft guy, go through everything I've already checked - safe mode etc etc. Then the microsoft ARSEHOLE goes "oh, no you should return the computer to it's place of purchase". I was so frickin' annoyed.

Anyway take it back to the store. I go back to the end of the queue. Next TUESDAY I get a phonecall from store dweeb telling me that my computer has been wiped. Stopping the mirror halfway through caused the partition to fail or something like that.

SO If I had just let them do their job, without microsoft interfering in the first place - everything would have been fine. They still CHARGED me for it all.

SEEING as my computer was only 2 months old at that point, I learnt how to install and network my new XP computer and my old Win95 computer (which they said at the store they wouldn't or couldn't support - wankers).

Just redownloaded everything to my new HDD again (and had to reinstall everything).

SO after that stuffing up my computer I turned up auto update - as I was advised. (you can't win though cause you put the updates on and your computer is vunerable to Microsoft putting up dud updates - which they seem to test on Australia as it's like 4am in the morning for them, and they can find problems and fix them before the day starts for people in Asia, Europe and the Americas. Grr.

AND if you turn of updates microsoft aren't going to help you because they just say 'oh you should update'. GRR.

ANYWAY - this new problem that I have with updates - is that one of the SP1 updates changes my Windows display - as I said in a previous post - all the toolbars and text goes black, so you can only go back and undo the update if you can essentially navigate your way back 'in the dark'. Everything is black. Well most things. SO if I don't put that update in, I can't install the following updates. SO STUPID! (This update I'm talking about is different to the one that restarted my computer over and over again).

Andrew

Posted by Fleet-Admiral Michael T. Colorge (Member # 144) on :

The University Student Union only use the MS IE 6.0 web browser at all its terminals... so whenever I sign onto here from work I can see the message. How odd...

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

"In the grand scheme of things in life, there are (...) any number of other WAY more important things to get riled up about..."

Like, oh, dents in your car?

And remind me to link back to this thread the next time you're going through one of your many relational crises and decide to wail about how all men should be fed their own dicks and then hanged by the balls in public, will you?

/long day

(I just installed the v1.0 preview release of FireFox to update my barely two-month old v0.8.something, and It is Good.)

Posted by Doctor Jonas (Member # 481) on :

I feel left out, Charles. I use Firefox, so I get no warning. Can you put another big red box for us with something like:

~~WELL DONE YOUNG GIRL!~~

Damn, I miss Pokey.

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
I asked them if I could take my computer home and bring it back - and if stopping in the middle of a 'mirror' would stuff the computer (the dweeb working at the store said no, that is fine).

...

Next TUESDAY I get a phonecall from store dweeb telling me that my computer has been wiped. Stopping the mirror halfway through caused the partition to fail or something like that.

As far as I can tell, the shop is completely, totally, 100% at fault for wiping your hard drive. I know that they probably have something saying "it's not our fault if your repair goes wrong", but saying that you can take the computer, and THEN saying that taking it is what ruined it sounds like you have a legitimate complaint. At the very least, I'd send an angry letter and see what happens.

As to your computer screen going black when you install SP1, that really is weird. What graphics card have you got? And have you ever updated the drivers?

Regarding automatic updates: you can install them manually, y'know. If you're worried, then only install ones that have been on the web-site for a few days. That should give them enough time to be fully tested.

Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :

I personally don't see a problem at all with that notice on the main page. I just ignore it.

I have tried various browsers but IE in its current form is the one that works best for me on my current machine. All the alternatives except for Opera (which I sometimes use for a change) run terribly slow so I see no reason to change to a different browser permanently. Plus I have never had any problems with security issues as I still use Windows 98 which hackers don't seem to bother about any longer.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by PsyLiam:
As far as I can tell, the shop is completely, totally, 100% at fault for wiping your hard drive. I know that they probably have something saying "it's not our fault if your repair goes wrong", but saying that you can take the computer, and THEN saying that taking it is what ruined it sounds like you have a legitimate complaint. At the very least, I'd send an angry letter and see what happens.

As to your computer screen going black when you install SP1, that really is weird. What graphics card have you got? And have you ever updated the drivers?

Regarding automatic updates: you can install them manually, y'know. If you're worried, then only install ones that have been on the web-site for a few days. That should give them enough time to be fully tested.

Well, yes it was the computer shop's store - more specifically it was the dweeb. He knew what had happened was wrong, yet he denied any culpability. He was a moron. ANYWAY - that was about 2 years ago now - so in computer terms, ancient history.

I never thought about the graphics card and checking for updates.

I have an Nvidia G-force 4. 64 Mb

I think the update is one that you can't avoid having before you download the next updates.

Andrew

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

Hey MinutiaeMan, Toadkiller, you guys ever notice how shiny Safari is? Seen that new iMac G5? That's pretty shiny too. Anyway, it sure is rough only having such a tiny fraction of the market share. It seems like we really miss out on things like futzing around with broken patches, viruses, and spyware.

Also, what exactly does 'execution of arbitrary code' mean? Does the malicious site designer get to arbitrarily specify what that code is? Or does it just fuck things up for the unfortunate IE user by executing whatever code it stumbles upon in some drunken-IE-buffer-overflow binge? Because maybe the Flare warning should go one further and go ahead and show IE users what could happen.

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

Shhh, we don't want to inspire Chuckles to go on a rampage.

Remember last time?

Yes, I'm very happy in my macheadedness (it even told me that's not a word) no malware to speak of... I'm tooling along on an old Cube though. No G5 for me, alas.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

(There sure isn't any malware written for my Difference Engine either, and dig that Victorian design!)

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

They are unable to respond due to having been zinged! Oooh, the pain it hurts so much.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

THE FIRST CUT WON'T HURT AT ALL

THE SECOND ONLY MAKES THEM WONDER

THE THIRD WILL HAVE THEM ON THEIR KNEES

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

Speaking of getting zinged. I got my DSL hooked up today. So there's some Total Annihilation schooling in my near future. The only hangup is that while I'm consistently getting 2.5Mbps down, I'm currently getting about 0 bps up. SBC assures me they will be able to troubleshoot this issue tomorrow (just as soon as they can get their diagnostic tools working again). Instills tremendous confidence. Also, w/r/t topic, they insisted that I use Internet Explorer to register and troubleshoot the upload issue. I felt dirty.

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

My DSL provider also claims that IE is needed to interact with the modem/their server. I find Safari works fine though....

Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :

I just got cable internet, and it keeps trying to default to IE. Irritating, yes, because I've been a Mozilla user for a few months, so I don't even LIKE the IE interface anymore.. but it's a stubborn interaction, I tell ya... everytime I turn my computer on, it pops up with IE. Oh, well.... it's just an irritation, nothing to lose sleep over :-)

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane:
Speaking of getting zinged. I got my DSL hooked up today. So there's some Total Annihilation schooling in my near future. The only hangup is that while I'm consistently getting 2.5Mbps down, I'm currently getting about 0 bps up.

Have you tried 'Net Limiter' - you can decrease the down to allow more up.

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :

Okay, so I decided to try Firefox. It had been awhile since I'd played with an offspring of Mozilla, and after the discussion here and the realization that I didn't even have Opera handy, I said "what the hell".

Ye gods, this sucks. Oh, it's way, way, way better than it used to be, but damn.

Just to get more than a barebones featureless wretched browser, I had to go rummage through various browser extensions, downloading whatever seemed useful based off a short description and no screenshots. Some of these are nice, some not.

The tabbing behavior is unpleasant . . . unlike the rough standards seen in Opera, Slimbrowser, or MyIE2, this seems a rather haphazard tabbing theory. No tab-naming option. No tab-moving option. The tab line disappears completely if you have one window open, meaning everything moves whenever you open a window. And, just to get some semblance of control over it, I had to load an extension. Hell, the option wasn't even engaged when I first loaded the thing.

The speed issue is questionable. Going to a new site involves the browser slowly rendering the images, despite my fast download speeds (I found an extension to test my bandwidth, which was kinda neat, but shows that despite 900Kbps, things are still a little slow-feeling). Perhaps it's just the way this works . . . showing the image as it downloads line by line, versus popping up the complete image or larger blocks thereof . . . and that is rather distracting in any case. Further, I've noticed that images don't seem to cache until you hit a page a few times. While this makes sense in theory, it doesn't work too well in practice.

You can't just go to a website if you paste it in to the bar, and the old "Go" button is only optional. As a result, keyboard-free surfing for the power-potato is not an option, unless you grab the proper extension. Further, if you close a tab, the address of the old tab shows up in the address bar . . . not the address of the active tab. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure offhand how to make it show "flare.solareclipse..." right now, instead of the last closed tab. I can duplicate the tab, but that hardly makes sense as a requirement.

Though promising freedom, Firefox limits a lot of things I'm used to having control over. From aesthetic issues to actual usability concerns, there's a lot here that is in need of work. I like a wider Google search bar and the option to move all the various toolbars around, for instance, but here you're fairly well locked into just a few permutations. I like to be able to customize the browser into a very tight assortment at the top, a status bar below, and no unneeded bits or clutter in my way.

I like to be able to skin the browser almost completly, so that I can have something functional and aesthetically pleasing. Oh yeah, and though this isn't the browser's problem, whose bright idea was it to show almost no images of any of the downloadable skins? I mean, really.

Only the extensions save the day, but the fact that much of their capability wasn't present to begin with is quite worrisome.

Anyway, I'm a few hours into it now, which is more than most people would give. I realize I'm picky about my browser . . . hell, I use two different tabbed-browsing IE-rips, one at work and one at home, just so I can do exactly what I want.

What I'd love is a completely-user-reconfigurable browser. Every function, every aesthetic choice, open for my choosing. I want to be able to determine which menus show up on the menu bar, and in what order. I want to pick the order in my right-click dialog boxes, and if I right click tabs, and so on and so forth. But these are things that do not exist.

I have tried Firefox, and tested it in various maneuvers, and it is not merely different . . . it is inferior. To be sure, it at least rivals if not surpasses Opera, and as with virtually any browser it spanks Netscape, but still. I will brave the danger of the red box, and return to my SlimBrowser ways. Yea, though many a hacker attacks its IE core and many a peculiar claim about its own dangerousness due to these attackers comes up, I know that I will surf faster and more efficiently, for SlimBrowser is with me.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"The tab line disappears completely if you have one window open..."

Unless, y'know, you toggle that option...

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

quote:
What I'd love is a completely-user-reconfigurable browser. Every function, every aesthetic choice, open for my choosing. I want to be able to determine which menus show up on the menu bar, and in what order. I want to pick the order in my right-click dialog boxes, and if I right click tabs, and so on and so forth. But these are things that do not exist.

In other words, you want the complete nightmare that comes with a "completely custom" user interface. Firefox isn't about that. It's about being a good, "simple" browser for REAL end-users, not control freaks. You'll never find what you want with Firefox.

I'm perfectly satisfied with the stock experience, and only have two extensions - Live HTTP Headers (useful for debugging, which is kinda my job), and Spellbound (speel checker).

Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :

speel checker?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Yes. He dosen't speel so gud.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You'll never find what you want with Firefox.

Or anything else, likely.

And I like the plugin for opening new tabs instead of new windows.

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

Tis glorious indeed.

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

What's a tab, for instance?

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Further, if you close a tab, the address of the old tab shows up in the address bar . . . not the address of the active tab.

Erhm... huh?

As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure offhand how to make it show "flare.solareclipse..." right now, instead of the last closed tab.

Click on the address bar (or press Alt + D) and hit ESC.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

quote:
What's a tab, for instance?

A tab is ... a tab. You know. A tab. Tabbed interface. %)

Basically, instead of opening a link in a new window, you can open it in a new tab in this window. With the right set of options, you can open up many links on a page in a set of tabs, quickly, without having to go back and forth between them...

Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :

Like a separate portion of the current browser, with its own scroll bar? A split-screen of several pages in one browser window?
Could you show me a screenshot, I'm having trouble visualizing here...

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

In Firefox, the tabs are attached to the main window.

http://flareupload.pleh.net/uploads/9/firefox_tabs.png

In Opera, each tab can float inside the main Opera window as a subwindow.

Posted by Guardian 2000 (Member # 743) on :

quote:
Originally posted by TSN:
"The tab line disappears completely if you have one window open..."

Unless, y'know, you toggle that option...

I had to download yet another extension just to get any tab line settings options whatsoever, but still that option did not appear. Perhaps I didn't find the best competing extension to enable me to control my tabs . . . but that's just sad. I can do that with SlimBrowser or MyIE out of the (proverbial) box.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
In other words, you want the complete nightmare that comes with a "completely custom" user interface. Firefox isn't about that. It's about being a good, "simple" browser for REAL end-users, not control freaks. You'll never find what you want with Firefox.

Indeed, I won't. I don't want limited software that limits my options. While the pipe dream I spoke of refers to software that doesn't exist, I can do a helluva lot better than Firefox.

My desires are not unreasonable, and will not create a nightmare scenario. I'm not talking about PhaseOut-style browsers (see PhaseOut.Net). I simply want the options I've seen and liked all wrapped up into one.

A "real" end-user doesn't simply take what he's given and live with it, as you suggest. That's the very reason these IE front-ends like SlimBrowser have come to exist, and the very reason hard-working modders keep trying to add to the Firefox carcass.

Some people don't really need all the bells and whistles that make surfing faster, easier, and more efficient. As Omega said, "You click links. You push a few buttons. Occasionally you go to a bookmark or type a url."

Some of us, however, can get a great advantage out of the bells and whistles. It's not a contest of "oh yeah, my browser can beat up your browser" or "oh yeah, well my browser doesn't have as many hackers after it". For the sort of surfing I do, the simple fact is that Firefox just doesn't cut it, even extended out the wazoo.

quote:
I'm perfectly satisfied with the stock experience, and only have two extensions

And use of the bare-bones, optionless browser is your choice. I respect the fact that you have that choice, have made it, and that it seems to work for you . . . the whole browser thing is a matter of opinion, in the long run. However, I would recommend that you try SlimBrowser or MyIE2 . . . depending on your needs, you might find that you've been missing out.

quote:
Originally posted by Cartman:
Further, if you close a tab, the address of the old tab shows up in the address bar . . . not the address of the active tab.

Erhm... huh?

The active tab . . . the one you're looking at. I can't even tell you how often I've had a dozen tabs open (which would be a dozen separate taskbar-cluttering IE windows with normal IE) and found myself wanting to copy the URL of one of them. With Firefox, I'd have to go through the convoluted methodology described below:

quote:
Click on the address bar (or press Alt + D) and hit ESC.

With SlimBrowser, MyIE2, and even Opera, I don't have to bother with that. I click the tab I want, right-click the address bar, left-click copy, and then go paste it somewhere else. No buttons pressed, no having to dig around to find out how to do something so basic. Call me lazy, but it speeds up my surfing to have a more intuitive interface.

(Don't even get me started on ICQ.)

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I'm a little confused. I have never downloaded any Mozilla extensions, because I do not believe I deserve a life of luxury and comfort, and yet, when I switch from tab to tab the displayed URL changes accordingly. Sometimes the little icon thing, if there is one, gets confused, and for awhile Flare bore the IMDB logo in my bookmarks folder. But I'm not sure that's even what's being discussed.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"I had to download yet another extension just to get any tab line settings options whatsoever, but still that option did not appear. Perhaps I didn't find the best competing extension to enable me to control my tabs . . . but that's just sad."

I don't have Firefox on this computer, but I know from memory that it's in the plain old extensionless options under "advanced". In full-fledged Mozilla, as I have here, it's called "Hide the tab bar when only one tab is open.". I'm pretty sure it's the same or similar in FF. Just uncheck it. I'm not sure how much simpler it could be.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Advanced > Browsing, in fact.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nim:
What's a tab, for instance?

An Eighties low-joule carbonated cola beverage. [Big Grin]

Posted by J (Member # 608) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
Yesterday, I spent a few hours helping a new coworker clean out his personal machine, with a few others. In the six weeks that he'd had the machine, the use of an unprotected IE had resulted in over THREE DOZEN varieties of malware being installed, including one that completely hijacks IE itself and prevents it from doing pretty much anything.

Well there's the problem... unprotected IE. Any computer that is unprotected, doesn't matter if it's IE or not, is just that unprotected and a willing participate in getting infected. I notice three problems with what you said here that would have prevented the whole situation.

1) It was a new installation. I don't know exactly how long, but it would seem to me that most new installation are at least 6 months out-dated. The first thing the user should do is download the lastest update. Now someone said they had problems with the updates--- I can't speak to that, I've never had one or heard of one before this. But in all that... it is still better to try the update and have it fail, especially when it's a new installation.

2) Unprotected tells me no anti-virus software, when it comes to the Internet I consider it invitation to not have anti-virus software. Again, this is a user issue, not one with IE or Microsoft. In this same category are firewalls.

3) 3 dozen?!?! Talk about invitation! What did he do go to hackers-r-us.com and execute their happyhour download? Getting 3 dozen virii, spyware, etc... anything like that within six weeks is proof positive that your friend needs to take a course in how to safely use the Internet. I can't conceive of a way to get that many without purposely downloading them, opening attachments, or going to malicious websites.

quote:
All this happened ONLY from using IE. The continued use of IE by anybody (even educated users)

And this is what we have... a difference of opinion. Since I took it upon myself to become an educated user a few years ago after getting infected by the kak.worm I haven't had a single infection or problem. I updated often, I run virus scans, I have a firewall... and I have ActiveX turned OFF. I don't even open email from unknown people in preview windows not to mention SPAM, and when surfing the web from a search engine I avoid sites that can't be trusted. Education... and paranoia is the key--- even for non-IE, non-Microsoft users. And com'on, based on your education and paranoia you choose not to use IE at all... and you call it stupidity, but I feel confident enough to continue to use it without fear.

Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:

quote:
Originally posted by Nim:
What's a tab, for instance?
An Eighties low-joule carbonated cola beverage.

My local grocery store still stocks those. [Eek!]

Of course, it's only about 2 6-packs at a time. No telling how old they are...

Anyway, I use Mozilla (download that over Firefox because I needed the simple web page editor), never downloaded any extensions, and I have no problems using tabs, or any other issues brought up here, either. Dunno what's going on with Firefox, since it's basically the same.

B.J.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Charles: If you have time and aren't sick of this string, I'd like to see you respond to the post J has above. I do the same thing he does (obsessively), but I am open to change if you or any other anti-IE'er can convince me that despite all those measures I am doomed to lose something important before Longhorn is out.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I click the tab I want, right-click the address bar, left-click copy, and then go paste it somewhere else. No buttons pressed, no having to dig around to find out how to do something so basic.

Sir, what exactly are you calling Firefox? Because I just did exactly what you describe, and so far as I know I've been able to do it with every prior version of the browser. What version are you running, what OS, and where did you get it?

I am open to change if you or any other anti-IE'er can convince me that despite all those measures I am doomed to lose something important before Longhorn is out.

You're not doomed. You just increase your odds.

Posted by Toadkiller (Member # 425) on :

And increase your frustration. I have to use IE at work or an ancient version of Netscape. Once I put the google task bar on I at least had popup blocking, for awhile. Now I'm getting leak through on that. With Mozilla's products or Safari, no leak through + tabs = browsery goodness.

I'm not using windows, so not worried about most of the security issues but just the improvements in user interface is enough reason to change over - I mean come on mozilla's stuff is free...and it isn't like you can really delete IE off your windows box anyhow so you can use it when the mood strikes.

(Till Charles starts bashing you for not using a *nix based OS [Smile]

)

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by B.J.:

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:

quote:
Originally posted by Nim:
What's a tab, for instance?
An Eighties low-joule carbonated cola beverage.
My local grocery store still stocks those. Of course, it's only about 2 6-packs at a time. No telling how old they are...

Wow! I thought they were long gone. Gone the way of Eighties dance-based movies, leg warmers and fluoro-hair extensions! [Big Grin]

Does it still have the purpley/red packaging!?!

It WOULD be interesting to see how old they are - next time - check the 'bottling'/'manufacture' date.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

My grocery store has Tab in twelve-packs. I actually drank 'em for a while, they're not bad. I seem to recall the video guys at Workcamp getting a picture of me drinking one. I must get a copy of that video some time...

Posted by B.J. (Member # 858) on :

quote:
Originally posted by AndrewR:
Does it still have the purpley/red packaging!?!
[/QB]

Purpley/red? I always considered them pink. But yeah, they look exactly the same as in the 80's.

B.J.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

Well - a pinkish/purplish red/maroon.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

quote:
I do the same thing he does (obsessively), but I am open to change if you or any other anti-IE'er can convince me that despite all those measures I am doomed to lose something important before Longhorn is out.

http://www.gulftech.org/?node=downloads

Download "jpegcompoc.zip", then open the JPG file it contains in IE. Beware that I don't actually know what the proof of concept does. I'd imagine it's not malicious. In any case, you might want to consider not actually doing it.

No firewall, no anti-virus suite, nothing can protect you from that if you aren't patched. Even then, it takes awareness of the problem and/or automatic updates being installed either with or without your knowledge.

This is hardly the first major IE problem, and will certainly not be the last. IE is a walking security hole, and installing twenty levels of web filtering just so you can use IE is insanity to me.

The choice is obvious. Stop using IE, and stop using products that use IE.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

I don't think I am going to test my luck purposely downloading a security risk. However, Charles, I trust your knowledge on IT matters, so I will go with Firefox until Longhorn makes its way out. I'm not nuts about the look of the interface, but safety first. (Does anyone know of a IE skin for Firefox?) Thanks for answering my question.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Double post. Feel free to delete, Sol System.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

http://pages.prodigy.net/zzxc/ieskin/

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Thanks, Charles.

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I don't really mind the layout of Firefox so far, apart from it would be handy to have a History button, not just a link on the Go menu. . .

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Lee: if you right-click on the toolbars, you can find History in the customize menu. (That worried me for a second too when I didn't see it at first.)

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Ah. I still have a lot to play around with, it seems. Now if only the whole browser didn't freeze for about 2 seconds every time I save an image. . .

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

That might be the effect of twiddling the download manager - it sometimes takes a few seconds to pop open.

Posted by Daryus Aden (Member # 12) on :

Hmm, IMHO the firefox interface is much better than IE...

I must be the only person on earth who hates the IE favourites setup with a blazing passion..?

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

This firefox - can you import your IE favourites (grrr Netscape bookmarks)?

Speaking of which what is the latest Netscape release - and is it any competition?

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

YES/AFFIRMATIVE

6.2/COME BACK LATER

NO/NEGATIVE

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Netscape 7.2 is the latest release, and it's basically Mozilla Suite 1.7. Same rendering engine as Firefox, but a completely different interface...

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

OK, so this Download Manager has been ticking away in the background remembering every file or image or whatever I've clicked on?! No fucking wonder it was getting so slow, I've been using it for about two months now. I tried to open the DM and it took 20 minutes! So now I've got it set to not remember anything. But what is the bloody point of the thing in the first place?! And why not just set it to NOT remember everything by default. Oh, wait, of course, I know why - because that would be SENSIBLE, and (even worse), would make the program just like IE, which was made by Microsoft and is therefore REALLY BAD and UNCOOL. Jesus. Life was much better without the internet.

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Lee:
Life was much better without the internet.

LOL! Bring on 1993! Which - actually as I was thinking last night wasn't such a BAD year.

Neither was 1987, 1998, 1990, 1992 and 1995. [Big Grin]

*Andrew knows that the internet has been around since the 1960's - but I just nominated a year when it was was primarily the domain of computer geeks and Star Trek nerds. Which used to more-often-than-not go hand in hand. [Big Grin]

I also used 1993 as a friend's brother started getting on the 'net in like 1994 - when it was all text based! [Big Grin]

Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
Netscape 7.2 is the latest release, and it's basically Mozilla Suite 1.7. Same rendering engine as Firefox, but a completely different interface...

So is Netscape worth a try again?

What about just using lynx? [Big Grin]

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

Or Gopher.

Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :

("Gopher" rhymes with "Topher.")

Posted by ulTRS magDOS (Member # 239) on :

It sometimes might not.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I guess if it's one of those George Bernard Shaw things where "gopher" is actually pronounced "salmon" or something.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Using salmon to browse the web will prove unproductive.

Lee: By default, the Download Manager pops open every time you save a file. Chances are that, if you left that default on, you'd also then see that it collected a history and could, from time to time, click the button in the Download Manager window that clears its history, thus avoiding the whole issue of the history never clearing itself by default.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Text-based browsing is the hot shit, though. Spend a few weeks of quality time with a Unix terminal and it's like a whole new internet slowly opens itself up to you, one of an almost ASCIIthereal beauty and f1337tness. Go and download Lynx for Windows now, that you may see.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Another Firefox question: when I run Disk Cleanup, there is almost nothing in my Temporary Internet Files after I've been online all day. Does Firefox store its temporary files elsewhere? And if so, is Disk Cleanup catching these?

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Yes, they're elsewhere. No, Disk Cleanup doesn't catch them. However, unlike IE, Firefox actually obeys the cache storage limit.

You can play with (and clear) the cache under Options -> Privacy -> Cache

The default is 50 megs, I have mine set to 10. Don't set it too small - keep it up to at least five megs.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Thanks, Charles.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So for some dumb reason when I went to open Firefox, it deleted ALL of my bookmarks, all of my options and preferences. I had to reimport everything from IE, which was a huge pain in the ass, since all of the bookmarks I've added SINCE I stopped using IE over a month and a half ago are now gone. The meticulous arrangment my bookmark folder was in was completely undone. I am so incredible pissed at Firefox.

Why? Why did this happen? I have no idea. But I'm pretty fucking pissed.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

That could only happen if your profile folder got screwed up somehow...

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Perhaps you could describe the sequence of events...?

Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :

Bookmarks? Oh, I'm so glad I'm past the day where I needed to bookmark things.... any site I go to now, I type in from memory. Why? Because I've worked REALLY hard to "get a life" and now there are only like, oh, 4 sites I visit regulary. Praise the Lord for no longer being the uber-geek. Daylight is a wonderful thing [Wink]

Sorry Snay... I have to poke fun at you.... it's my job. [Razz]

~LOA

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Theory: Somehow you started up the Firefox equivalent of the Mozilla Profile Manager which allowed you to create a completely new profile separate from the old one.

Thinking that everything was deleted you reimported everything into this new profile while your old profile is still sitting around.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Mozilla once lost all of my bookmarks. I don't know why. The bookmarks file was still where it was supposed to be, but it had simply reverted back to its default. I never figured out why it happened.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Mucus,

How would I find my old profile?

Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :

Well, you could probably see the actual files in a Firefox equivalent to
C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\Application Data\Mozilla\Profiles

That said, if Firefox has an equivalent to the Profile Manager, you can probably freely switch between the two profiles there.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

A question about bookmarks: I notice that with Firefox there are a lot more of those nice little pictures instead of the default "ball" next to each bookmark. Most of those little pictures load into my bookmarks when I visit the site for at least 10 seconds. However, there is at least one I can remember that refuses to do so. Since the pictures help me remember what I have visited each day and what I haven't, is there anyway to get that little glyph into my bookmarks manually? Thanks.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Try deleting that bookmark, then creating the bookmark again, after you see the icon in the URL bar. (It's called a favicon, originally an IE feature, but extended and enhanced by Firefox... IE remembers the icon only for about a week after you bookmark the site. Google the term for more info.)

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I've found that when you bookmark it, the default favicon appears. If you then use that bookmark, it'll pick up the site's own favicon. Mind you, the slightest bit of instability while using Firefox and it loses them all.

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

It's a known bug in either Firefox or the way favicons work in general.

ATM, the only link that has the wrong favicon in my list is Flare.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

We don't have a favicon, last I checked.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Charles: I tried deleting the bookmark and re-entering it, by Ctrl-D, manually, using the links toolbar, nothing works. Tried Googling the problem but nothing came up that seemed to work. Leaving the site on for a few minutes doesn't seem to work either. The site I'm trying to get is http://www.powerlineblog.com. Is there something else I might try?

PS: Charles: why ISN'T there a favicon for Flare? This place has way too much personality to use browers' defaults!

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Hmm, I'm not seeing a favicon for the site when I bookmark it either. How very odd.

We don't have a favicon here because I have no graphical talent at such a small image size.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Thanks for checking, Charles. Very odd, indeed.

Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Capps:
We don't have a favicon here because I have no graphical talent at such a small image size.

Not to be too presumptuous or anything, but MinutiaeMan and I were kicking around ideas a while back.

or maybe

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

I would think that the first one would be more the right size...

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Aye, and without the transparency. Perhaps with a one pixel border of the blue background.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

How about

?

It's just the upper left quadrant of the current logo, resized. And it could be rotated, depending upon which corner you want it to be in.

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

Seconded. I'd flip it diagonally, though, to line up the black portion with the top left corner of the titlebar.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Ooh, purty.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Very nice, TSN!

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

I also played around with a couple of ideas - the results were identical to BX's. Tim's looks good though.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

One more question about favicons on Firefox: is there anyway to import a favicon to an existing bookmark?

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

On the face if it, no, there doesn't appear to be. At least IE Favourites exist as individual files, allowing you to modify their icons; but Firefox bookmarks seem more like the Netscape bookmarks that existed as an editable HTML file.

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

The same editable HTML file, actually. The favicon is stored in an attribute in there, so you could, in theory, copy a favicon from one bookmarked site to another.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

I've had that happen without my aid (or consent). Like, right now Flare is branded with the IMDB logo.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Which HTML file would this be?

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

bookmarks.html

Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :

Ah, yes. It's in your profile, in C:\Documents and Settings\profile_name\Application Data\Mozilla\Firefox\Profiles\Default.hzu\bookmarks.html. If you look at the page source, there's an ICON="full web addres of favicon" tag as part of each bookmark's information.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

I tried looking there, but the location was a line of what might be a long hexidecimal number with no discernable (by me, at least) form like that of an HTML location on the computer. Oh well.

I have a question about Thunderbird, though. I switched over this morning since it offered a very few number of advantages over Outlook Express. I installed Hotmail Popper 2.1.1 (the absolutely free version) so I could access my hotmail account. However, I now have an annoying icon of a burning candle on there. I would prefer it not be displayed if possible. Looking in the help section, it said this:

quote:

In addition to these options, Hotmail Popper has one command line option. If you specify the argument /hideicon on the command line, Hotmail Popper will be run hidden (with no icon in the taskbar notification area).

How exactly do I change a command line option?

Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :

Find the shortcut (or the registry entry) that makes the program start on Windows startup.

If it's a shortcut in your Start Menu (or wherever), just rightclick and you should be able to find the actual command it uses (I have a Dutch Windows, so I don't know what exactly it's called in English.. probably Target). You can just add command line options after the "blabla.exe" part.

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

I'm not sure what you mean by the registry entry. I tried right clicking on the start menu icon and had "Options," "Shortcut," and "Compatibility." In the second, there is a "Start in," "Shortcut key," "Run," and "Comment" fields. There are also buttons for "Find Target...," "Change Icon," and "Advanced." The only thing in Advanced was running the program with "different credentials." Is what I am looking for in any of these?

Posted by Topher (Member # 71) on :

Start > Run

Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :

"Is what I am looking for in any of these?"

Yes. I don't know what version of Windows you're using, but under 2000 and XP, you can set command line parameters in the Properties --> Shortcut --> Target field, like Harry said.

(If the program runs automatically on startup, you will either have to repeat this for the icon in Start --> Programs --> Startup or alter its associated registry key* via the RegEdit tool.)

*usually located at HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Run

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

This what is in the Target field now (exactly, quotation marks and all):

quote:

"C:\Program Files\Hotmail Popper\hotpop.exe"

Is what I need to do this...?

quote:

/hideicon"C:\Program Files\Hotmail Popper\hotpop.exe"

I my estimated computer IQ is going lower and lower with every post on this topic, I but I appreciate everyone answering my stupid questions. Thanks for the help, everyone.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"C:\Program Files\Hotmail Popper\hotpop.exe /hideicon"

Posted by David Sands (Member # 132) on :

Worked like a charm. Thanks, TSN!

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