Last official death toll was 59 300, tsunamis hitting right smack on late sunday morning when the beaches were filling with people. Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, East Africa and 5 other countries, I think.
The swedish foreign agency spread misinformation during the early hours after the initial news yesterday, saying "all swedish tourists have been accounted for and are safe". About 1500 swedish tourists have since then been reported missing, 10 confirmed dead. Swedish, british and german tourists make out the majority of the foreigners in Thailand and Sri Lanka during the season.
My neighbor who lives in the apartment over mine was in Sri Lanka, he was dragged out into the sea and ripped up against the debris, reefs and seashells, they eventually found him struggling to reach the shore and got help, I heard this from my father two hours ago.
My other friend was also in Sri Lanka, I didn't hear from him until this morning, he said it was a close call but he'd been very fortunate and had managed to get further inland during the evacuation. He still has to go back to Colombo, the capital, to travel home again, I feel so sorry for all the misery he'll be seeing.
I hope to God no one else here has any relatives or friends down there.
Posted by Siegfried (Member # 29) on :
The front page of the Houston Chronicle has the picture of a little boy from Sweden holding a sign saying that he's missing his parents and brothers. It breaks the heart; I hope he finds his family.
I'm glad that you've heard from your friends, Nim.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I read about the coordinated help efforts being planned now, the largest aid project ever undertaken by the UN, WHO, Save The Children and all other organisations. It feels so strange and scary to see history being written in the now, that I'm seeing and reading of things that happen in realtime, things that in years to come will be referred-back-to as fact.
I both long for and fear the time when I'll see my friend again, I've never before met anyone I previously feared was dead.
The swedish correspondents say the stench of death and decomposition is already unbearable, and some Thai people are looting the corpses for jewels and valuables. I also read a transcript from someone at the temples where they pile the bodies, saying that half of all casualties are babies and small children.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
This seems to be the largest natural disaster in recent memory...not because of the death toll (as of now) but because of the number of countries affected and the distances the waves traveled.
I also heard on the news that the quake reshaped the coast of Sumatra and messed with the earth's rotation, making Dec. 26 a very slightly shorter day than it should have been. My God, this is horrible.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"...and messed with the earth's rotation, making Dec. 26 a very slightly shorter day than it should have been."
Wow. Now that's an earthquake.
Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :
I want my time back!!!!
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
My government has issued a warning about false fundraisers on the internet, who siphon money in the name of the earthquake and steal it.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
@Ritten: Stop joking about that! This is really nothing to poke fun at!
My girlfriend had booked a trip to the Maledives starting 4 Jan but was lucky to be able to cancel. I always think about what might have happened had she gone over Christmas.
And that photo of the Swedish boy was on our newspaper cover today too. It really breaks the heart, especially to know that he is just one of thousands of children who have lost their families!
Posted by Home Decor and Gardening (Member # 239) on :
OH NO OUR WATCHES ARE WRONG
OR
THAT EXTRA BUMP WAS JUST ENOUGH FOR ME TO LAND A DUNK ON THE BASKETBALL HOOP
OR
I ACCIDENTLY TIVO'D "TOUCHED BY AN ANGEL" BECAUSE THE DAY WAS TOO SHORT
OR
I WAS SETTING UP A LARGE DOMINO EXHIBIT, BUT BEOFRE I COULD FINISH IT GOT KNOCKED OVER
OR
I THINK I SHOULD APOLOGIZE. I AM FAT AND DID ONE TO MANY BELLYFLOPS INTO THE OCEAN'S POOL
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I read about the 'probable' wobble in the earth's rotation - but not about anything to do with 'a shorter day'. Got a website?
I'm wondering if there is any connection with the 8.1 mag earthquake that took place a few days earlier off the coast of Maquarie Island - south of Tasmania and South west of New Zealand. You can trace the major fault lines between the two.
I can't believe the waves travelled all the way to Africa! samped Maldives, Mauritus, Reunion(That's a long way) and The Seychelles.
Plus the East African countries of Somalia, Kenya and Tanzania.
I read that there were dramatic tide increases experienced as far away as Mexico!!
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
And California apparently, though there it was not a "dramatic" tide increase.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
well dramatic in as much as it was probably more than one metre higher than usual.
I found a news article about the Earth wobble! Islands shifting 30 metres!! Gawd!
And the most damning thing about it all is that the Thai ministry of Tourism, which was INFORMED of the approaching tsunamis WELL before they hit the shores, didn't even bother to issue a fucking WARNING for fear of spreading "unnecessary" panic and the usual self-apologetic bullshit. So, thanks to a bunch of government officials more concerned for their own necks than for the lives of THOUSANDS, bodies are now floating through the streets of Phuket. Go humanity.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I'm not saying you're wrong but if we're to judge the actions of the Thai authorities, we'd need to read the exchanges between warning stations and decision makers those couple of days.
I read that the info they had to work with stated that the quake was a 8.0 initially, and they had gotten a 8.0 in the region a few months earlier, which didn't produce any waves whatsoever. They obviously underestimated the quake, but I don't think they did a coverup on this, or we wouldn't have gotten wind of it.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
A small bit of good news, the young swedish boy Karl has been taken in by a swedish couple living in Phuket. Coincidentally the husband, Bo Guldstrand, is a member of the same parish as my father.
Our government were taken completely offguard and still haven't sent down any mediaid planes or helicopters, admitting they've been bogged down in procedures and researching. One of our airlines OTOH managed to send down three empty 747's yesterday, of their own accord...
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Anyone got a diagram of the Richter scale - isn't it exponential-like so a 9.0 is really much much much more than an 8.0?
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
A few random comments:
- That UN guy was really stupid on mentioning the word 'stingy', before the actual aid got rolling.
- Some are trying to critisize Bush again, but I think the US is doing a really good job. They are sending in Navy forces and have given more than the EU.
- Holy crap. Amazon has already collected over 2 million dollars in donations. And check out your Reload button. It goes up every second! In a few hours, there should be about 3 million dollars!
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Nim: yes, but in this case, they KNEW* that there were waves inbound, not just that there had been (what was first thought to be) another 8.0 quake, and they STILL dismissed it with such nonchalant arrogance and total disregard for human lives that "underestimate" is about the last expression I would use to judge their "actions" with.
(* Now, for the record, I'm not actually sure that's true, and I HOPE it's not, but something tells me to be more, I don't know, cynical than that.)
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"That UN guy was really stupid on mentioning the word 'stingy', before the actual aid got rolling."
Well, even though he wasn't specifically talking about the US, despite the Washington Times' lies, if we assume they at least got one number right, there's at least one country's government being stingy. That being the US. They're spedning more than twice as much on Bush's inauguration ceremonies as what they're giving to the tsunami victims. And that's not counting the money spent on security for the inauguration.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: - Some are trying to critisize Bush again, but I think the US is doing a really good job. They are sending in Navy forces and have given more than the EU.
Actually the EU is giving $44 million compared to $37 million from the US: EU $44m US: $35m Canada: $33m Japan: $30m UK: $28.9m Australia: $27m France: $20.4m Denmark: $15.6m Saudi Arabia: $10m Norway: $6.6m Taiwan: $5.1m Finland: $3.4m Kuwait: $2.1m Netherlands: $2.6m UAE: $2m Ireland $1.3m Singapore: $1.2m Source: BBC
Personally, I don't think the total is too stingy, although I suppose it could be higher; these are just initial donations anyway, plus there's all the aid personnel being sent out.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Now take those figures and weigh them up along GDP and/or population. Australia has a population of 20 million,
The UK is giving 1.9m (pop 60 million), Japan 3m (pop 127 million) and the US 8m (pop 293 million) dollars more than Australia. That is pretty pathetic. Nice to see good ole China helping people out. Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Now it jumped up to 120000, and I still haven't gotten news if my friend is on his way back. I read on Reuters that northern Sri Lanka has the added problem of old, floating landmines now, thanks a lot.
I heard from a friend of a friend at our "Institute for Infectious Disease Control", saying that the news has totally overhyped the dangers of cholera, malaria, corpse-spreading diseases and such. She said it will take a long time for a body to get so decomposed as to infect other people, and malaria isn't even an issue as the mosquitos don't hatch in saltwater.
I also heard that the peace-talks in Sudan has progressed significantly, I wonder if this event had anything to do with it. Maybe they got some perspective...
EDIT: Cartman, your Richter-scale link to HowStoughWorks said that the worst quake ever measured landed on 8.9, so if that article is correct then this asian quake is the new worst quake ever, since I've read several sources that say it was a 9.0.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I saw on that page that the worst was 9.5 in Alaska.
Posted by Dat (Member # 302) on :
Actually the worst ever recorded was either China or Chile. I heard news reporters say Chile, but they showed a graphic which said China.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
It was Chile.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN:
"That UN guy was really stupid on mentioning the word 'stingy', before the actual aid got rolling."
Well, even though he wasn't specifically talking about the US, despite the Washington Times' lies, if we assume they at least got one number right, there's at least one country's government being stingy. That being the US. They're spedning more than twice as much on Bush's inauguration ceremonies as what they're giving to the tsunami victims. And that's not counting the money spent on security for the inauguration.
NOthing like some healthy US bashing. So, the US is being "stingy"...although the US is the single largest contributor to the relief efforts (the EU being several countries pooling together) and although our relations with Indonisia have been pretty rocky....and it's not as though it's not just the start of relief aid from tyhe US- that money was pledged before deathtolls were known to be so astronomical.
You make it sound a though further US aid is not going to happen in favor of some party- be real. Dont let your hatred to Bush's administration obscrure a good start to relief efforts in a disaster worse than anything that could have been planned for.
Way to spit on the helping hand.
The figures cited are only GOVERNMENT donations- I'm sure that many private agencies are already there in force (Doctors Without Borders as example is there).
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
The UK Govt. is now giving �50 million. Bit of an outcry after the public alone raised �25 million, you see. Current BBC estimates put the amount of government-pledged money at about �200 million worldwide.
Our best friends actually went to Thailand on a belated honeymoon a few weeks ago. We're so glad they didn't decide to go over the Christmas period! They actually spent a few days on Ko Phi Phi island, and said they could see the remains of restaurants they'd eaten at on the TV news.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I'm glad your friends are safe, I'm pointing out that there are many who would use this disaster to slander the US to sell papers/ further their own agendas.
It's not a situation where finger-pointing is remotely helpful.
Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: - Holy crap. Amazon has already collected over 2 million dollars in donations. And check out your Reload button. It goes up every second! In a few hours, there should be about 3 million dollars!
It was up to 5.1 million when I calculated the average as $61.70 and promptly contributed. I am such a geek.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
*shrug*
Why is it not helpful? A public outcry might convince the US to give an amount more proportional to its GDP.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
I am normally one of the first to gladly jump on the "bash Bush" (pun not intended) bandwagon, but here I'm just glad that so many people and countries are helping fight the effects of that catastrophe.
On the other hand, think what the war in Irak cost and compare that to some 33 Million$. Doesn't one modern fighter plane alone cost far more?
Just a thought...
Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
quote:Originally posted by Austin Powers: On the other hand, think what the war in Irak cost and compare that to some 33 Million$. Doesn't one modern fighter plane alone cost far more?
Just a thought...
And a very good thought - screw war - it costs too much, both in materials and lives - spend money on something more worthwhile!
On the UK government note - Blair hasn't even cancelled his holiday for this (tosser) and they'll need to do more than match the public's contribution to please us in Ilkeston - that's for sure. �25,000,000 - is that all they can spare? Come on Labour - put some fucking effort into it you lame wankers - people are dying out there!!!
Everyone I know - family and friends - have all donated at least �100 each to help - we just hope it'll buy aid that'll get there in time to save as many lives as possible! I saw this little girl on the TV last night and just cried. Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mucus: *shrug*
Why is it not helpful? A public outcry might convince the US to give an amount more proportional to its GDP.
Er...yeah. Mabye you should focus that "public outcry" on some of those other countries that actually have ties to Indonisia as compared to their GDP: Saudi Arabia only sent $10 million and Spain sent 50 search dogs. Go Spain! Those 50 dogs will doubtlessly make a big diffrence.
As I said before- the money slated by the countries on that list is only the start, so dont get your panties in an twist just yet.
There are actually limits on how much initial money congress will allow to be sent to another country regardless of the situation.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
quote:Originally posted by akb1979: �25,000,000 - is that all they can spare? Come on Labour - put some fucking effort into it you lame wankers - people are dying out there!!!
Eh?
quote: The World Bank has announced that it is giving $250m to help victims while the UK increased its contribution to $96m, the biggest donation from an individual country.
The skeptical, cynical part of me really wants to know where all this money is going and who is overseeing it. Not the UN, I'd hope.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"So, the US is being 'stingy'...although the US is the single largest contributor to the relief efforts"
Well, the difference being that my comment was based on the Times' claim that we were giving them $15M. Which would have been less than Denmark, according to the BBC numbers. Obviously, things have changed.
(Or the Times got it wrong. Which, come to think of it, is probably even more likely.)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Ah...I see. The Times may have "overlooked" the facts in their ongoing "coverage" of the Bush administartion and how they're worthless evil monsters.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: Mabye you should focus that "public outcry" on some of those other countries that actually have ties to Indonisia as compared to their GDP: Saudi Arabia only sent $10 million and Spain sent 50 search dogs. Go Spain! Those 50 dogs will doubtlessly make a big diffrence.
Well the people have gotta eat!
Don't forget there are at least 12 countries affected by this
Indonesia Sri Lanka Thailand India Malaysia Maldives
Burma The Seychelles Mauritius Somalia Kenya Tanzania
From what I have seen/read, the last six had damage/casualties much less than the first six countries (I maybe wrong).
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: As I said before- the money slated by the countries on that list is only the start, so dont get your panties in an twist just yet.
There are actually limits on how much initial money congress will allow to be sent to another country regardless of the situation.
The Australian Government has upped it's aid to 35 million dollars.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Oh, any information on the condition of the UK/US Indian Ocean Territory - which is somewhere south of India?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
"The Times may have 'overlooked' the facts in their ongoing 'coverage' of the Bush administartion and how they're worthless evil monsters."
The what now? While the Washington Times is well known to have little use for reality, I'm confused as regards your accusing them of berating Bush. Is that some sort of sarcasm, or what?
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
By the way, Amazon's collection is up over $7M (the average donation is over $67).
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Oh, any information on the condition of the UK/US Indian Ocean Territory - which is somewhere south of India?
British Indian Ocean Territory. Permanent population: 0, due to them being cleared out for a large US base. They got warned. No casualties that I know of.
Updated aid estimates: World Bank: $250m UK: $96m Sweden: $75m China: $60m France: $56m EU $44m Netherlands: $36m US: $35m Canada: $33m Japan: $30m Australia: $27m Denmark: $15.6m Saudi Arabia: $10m Norway: $6.6m Taiwan: $5.1m Finland: $3.4m Kuwait: $2.1m UAE: $2m Again, from the BBC
You can partly see why the US is reluctant to increase it's donations; it has no historical ties or responsibilities to the area, unlike the UK, Netherlands and France. It would have been nice if this hadn't become an issue but it seems politics will infect anything, given half a chance...
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: You can partly see why the US is reluctant to increase it's donations; it has no historical ties or responsibilities to the area, unlike the UK, Netherlands and France. It would have been nice if this hadn't become an issue but it seems politics will infect anything, given half a chance...
Add to that a Dollar that's fallen through the basement, a president that thinks the deficit HE made will just go away and that many in his own party are starting to oppose his initiaves.
Plus, that money could go to strengthening the utopia that is Iraq.
Nim, I thought you referred to the New York Times- my bad for not reading more carefully (I was at work).
Last night (again at work) I heard two businessmen (mabye mid-forties) talking about how it's "Earth is like a dog shaking off fleas" and how "the planet's too overpopulated as it is".
That put a wrap on any hopeful humanitarian spin my posting on the subject.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I haven't talked about the Times, that was TSN.
quote:That put a wrap on any hopeful humanitarian spin my posting on the subject.
Can you clarify that? You need more words in that sentece until it can end.
What it says now is that by listening to these two men, you were convinced not to keep a humanitarian stance regarding this disaster? I can't believe that because I don't believe you are that much a cynical bastard, unlike those two creeps on your workplace.
I would've had no problem walking over to the man who said that and break his nose, I would feel extremely justified.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Nice to see good ole China helping people out.
Well, I guess they heard you.
quote:Originally posted by Wraith: Updated aid estimates: World Bank: $250m UK: $96m Sweden: $75m China: $60m France: $56m EU $44m Netherlands: $36m US: $35m ... Again, from the BBC
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nim': I would've had no problem walking over to the man who said that and break his nose, I would feel extremely justified.
Believe me, normally I would have been pissed enough to throttle them both while laughing, but their callusness in the face of such a disaster was somehow disheartening.
Their stupidity was just too huge for me to get worked up over.
I now understand that no disaster- no matter how horrible- will stir sympathy in some fuckers.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
I felt the same way when I overheard two 14-year old neonazi girls on the subway one evening. My intervention and lambasting would only have set them firmer in their ways, better to take it as a lesson in self-control and moderation, two invaluable tools in life.
You did right, Jason, I'm saying if I had been there, different ballpark.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
You can't change people like that with your fists. Not mentally, anyway.
Unfortunately.
"Not the UN, I'd hope."
Did Kofi Annan rape your mother, or something? For fuck's sake, this rabid UN-hatred of yours is REALLY getting old now. YES, it's far from perfect, and YES, it has screwed the pooch a fair number of times in its short history, but Jesus Christ, you'd think the entire top echelon consisted of corrupt pocket-lining suits from the way you keep berating the UN. Either propose an organizational structure that works better or knock it off. For once.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Bite me.
I dont think that giving HUGE sums of cash to organizations that propose to do good and hoping the people responsible for using those funds does not give in to temptation is idiotic. Then, whenever someone is critical of the current UN administration's bungling and lack of ANY oversight, people like you speak up to say "Propose an organizational structure that works better or shut up".
Well, fuck that- people like you are exactly why it's gotten this far- by accepting it because "theres nothing better".
You'd be royally pissed and screaming if the US embezzled 10 BILLION DOLLARS that was meant to feed the poorest people in Iraq, yet you'll defend ol' Kofi.
I dont just donate money to charities I dont trust- why should I want the UN handling $500 billion- intended for relief efforts- after they've shown they cant manage $10 billion without it going into the pockets of that "upper echelon"?
If an organization is corrupt, the leader of that organization should be held accountable. It's why we all voted against Bush- we dont have any such recourse with UN leadership though.
I DONT hate the UN- I love the idea of it, just not the poor way it's currently handled. Any world leader with Kofi's track record would have been impeached long before now- unfortunately, there is no real way to replace him with the UN stuctured the way it is. We can all just hope he resigns and someone better is elected....not that we'll have any say in that.
I do think that the UN needs a real shake up in those "upper echelons" if it's ever going to work as intended.
You want a better organizational structure? Disolve the Security Council- give all UN member nations equal voice and allow any member-country to openly review it's finances.
I never said I did not want the Un involved, but I have no idea who is handling all this cash- dont be suprised if we're talking about billions in missing relief aid this time next year.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
1) There's a difference between being critical, and just being an obstinate pain in the ass. "People like me" don't speak up to criticize something without making that criticism constructive, whereas "people like you" (thanks for the generalization) speak up only for the sake of criticizing, which is even LESS helpful than finger-pointing is in THIS situation.
2) I'm not defending Annan, so don't put those words in my mouth unless you plan to back them up.
3) ANY large international organization like the UN is going to be a bureaucratic nightmare susceptible to all sorts of shady dealings, but unless you're thinking about writing a personal cheque to each and every victim directly, there ARE no better (that is, less susceptible) ways to channel your money to where you want it to be channeled. And that has less to do with how the UN is structured than it has with good old human nature.
4) The UN would BE undergoing one huge reform right now if it weren't for the small snag that nobody can agree on HOW it should be reformed. It's not as if there's a lack of focal points, but when opinions range from "the UN should be a world government" to "the UN should be disbanded", typically, nothing ever GETS done. And that, again, is a problem brought on not so much by the UN's structure as by the plethora of personal and national agendas out there.
ANYHOW... I'm off to light some fireworks, talk to you next year, eh? B)
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
As I said, I'm not against the UN, I just really want this aid to actually get to the people that need it.
For now at least, that goal is better served by the money going to more private sources (Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, etc.) that have direct oversight from the countries hosting their relief efforts.
I wish I could join in the fireworks thing- it's pouring here in "sunny" Fort Lauderdale. I'm gonna go get ice cream- seeya/argue with ya next year. Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
The US just upped its contribution to $350 million.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Holy shit. Good going there. So that make total contributions over 700 million (with the World Bank's 250 million donation).
Many countries have canceled their New Year's festivities in favor of funeral services.
All this certainly puts my own troubles in perspective.....I'll be happy to see the end of 2004 though.
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
Well I got a new SMS from my friend earlier, he got home today, along with 8000 other swedes. That leaves 60 confirmed dead and 4000 still missing.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
From just Sweden, you mean? That's terrible... I imagine many will go unaccounted for though.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I heard that the Canadian government has pledged to match any donation made to a number of Canadian aid groups. So, like, if you were to give 100 dollars to the Canadian Red Cross, they'd get 200, altogether. But only until January 11. A brief news story about it.
On an only tangentially related note, Spalding Gray's Swimming to Cambodia was on last night, featuring his idiosyncratic descriptions of places like Phuket. And, uh, anyway, I guess I recommend it.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
As mentioned the US government has multiplied it's original donation ten-fold.
The Australian government has upped it's donation to $60 million
~3 dollars per Australian (pop 20 mil) ~57 cents per American. (pop 200 mil)
That is scarey - so many missing people. All those Swedes. Nice to hear your friend was OK!
The confirmed death toll for Australia has reached 11, fears that it maybe 111 - more than the Bali Bombing. still 1,500 missing Australians.
The terrible stories of survivors - I was watching a 'wrap up' on CNN. The number of children just swept out of parents arms. Elderly too. There was the story of a Mother who had to decide which of her children to let go - she let the eldest go - that later found him (alive) in a tree or on a roof after the waters receeded.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: There was the story of a Mother who had to decide which of her children to let go - she let the eldest go - that later found him (alive) in a tree or on a roof after the waters receeded.
That kid's gonna have serious abandonment issues.
Posted by Mucus (Member # 24) on :
It appears a bit out of date. i.e. Dec 26th stats However, it may be useful later.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I still cant figure out how that one guy in Kenya died...did he not evacuate after everyone else left? Surfer mabye out for the big wave (sounds dumb, but we see them in every hurricane)?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Great site:
Bit of pointless patriotism:
Australia is 1st in the world for these wonderfully varied topics (just a few):
1st in:
Agriculture - Exports to USA - Nuts edible (per capita)
Labor - Hours worked
Mortality - Contact with marine animal
Lifestyle - Amphetamine use
Crime - Car thefts (per capita)
Mortality - Multiple gestation (per capita)
Education - Literacy - Total population
So does that make us over-worked, nut-producing, amphetamine abusing, dolphin-petting, twin-birthing, car theives - that can read well?
Posted by Nim' (Member # 205) on :
How long have you had that status line, Andy? You reaper of the nuts edible, you.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Lol - heheh since this forum started actually! Couldn't think of anything else to change it to.
Posted by Veers (Member # 661) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: I still cant figure out how that one guy in Kenya died...did he not evacuate after everyone else left? Surfer mabye out for the big wave (sounds dumb, but we see them in every hurricane)?
The only Kenyan who died was Samuel Njoroge, 20, a mechanic from Nairobi who was swimming at the time.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So, who exports the most nuts inedible?
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
quote:Originally posted by TSN: So, who exports the most nuts inedible?
Strangely enough: Also Australia...
Posted by The Mighty Monkey of Mim (Member # 646) on :
So, yeah...150,000 is a lot of people... Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
There was one point where the count was in the low to mid 20,000s where I thought, "There's no way more than 100,000 died." 20,000 is A LOT of people. A profound tragedy. I can't imagine that many deaths or that level of destruction. Er... Now it's six times as many. I still can't quite get my head around it. All the way to Africa? Unfathomable.
So, I'm without television. Does anyone have a good link showing an animation of the tsunami's progression? Surely something like this must exist.
Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
It does.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I wonder if there were any survivors from the island of Simeulue...it's right AT the epicenter.
Posted by Hobbes (Member # 138) on :
Looking at this map it amazes me. Mostly due to how wide spread it is. It includes both Command Fifth and Seventh Fleet. I've been to a couple of those countries; Seychelles, India, Singapore and passed by Indonesia and Somalia. I can't seem to find any unclassified info about ships in the area. While around the horn of Africa we had waves up to 50 feet hit the ship.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Tidal waves sometimes appear as only small swells to ship at sea though..they dont become deadly untill they reach shore.
Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
Thanks, Jay. My god that's horrifying. I mean... god.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Balaam Xumucane:
quote:Originally posted by TSN: So, who exports the most nuts inedible?
Strangely enough: Also Australia...
LOL!
Classic. Funny thing is - why is it do things like Yahoo Serious and that Jacko guy and for that matter Steve Irwin and err someone else get popular overseas for crap - never really heard of in Australia before that. Although that Jacko guy was a footballer or something.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I find it weird how the tidal wave sort of affected Malaysia and Thailand around the otherside of Sumatra - did it swirl/bend around the northern tip of Ache and bang into the Malay peninsular or did it go over the top of the entire Island of Sumatra!?! Surely not the second option!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Mabye the shockwave went through/under the island to make a second wave on the other side?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Praxis? "Turn her into the wave!" Posted by Balaam Xumucane (Member # 419) on :
The animation Jay linked to shows the initial state of the tsunami as a massive arc, not a dot. Perhaps it hugged the contour of the fault line or something (?).
I was concerned that we might have a tragic twin tower collapsing echo with the Petrona Towers in Kuala Lumpur, but I guess they came through alright. The first maps I saw put the epicenter further north, nearer the norther tip of Sumatra. Egads. It's like my brain refuses to acknowledge that all those white boxes and bags along the beaches hold what used to be people.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Was watching the news today and and the destructive force of the tidal wave was akin to something like 6000 nuclear weapons!
Interesting link from some online UK newspaper - gives a bit of a 'timeline' on the actions of the tsunami.
And now scientists are wondering about the same thing in this article.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: As mentioned the US government has multiplied it's original donation ten-fold.
The Australian government has upped it's donation to $60 million
~3 dollars per Australian (pop 20 mil) ~57 cents per American. (pop 200 mil)
Tsk, tsk, no smiley face on your math test. By your figure of 200 million for the US, that would mean $1.75 per American, and the actual US population is around 295 million, so that would mean about $1.19 cents per American. Now whether that is still too low or not in your view is of course a legitimate opinion, but at least it's better than using false information to make a point, no?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
It was not intentionally false.
errr. 200,000,000/350,000,000 = .57142857
my 'rough' number for the pop of the USA was out - but the result is not much better still 84 cents per American compared to 3 dollars per Australian (that doesn't include the amount of private donations which have surpassed the government aide).
295,000,000/350,000,000 = .8428571
Not much better Ace.
So my information is not false, just not pedantic.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
So, .8428571 people per dollar? Not a very useful figure.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
hang on... oh LOL!
Sorry about that.
HAHAAH
US: 350,000,000/295,000,000 = $1.17 per person AUS: 60,000,000/20,000,000 = $3 per person.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Somehow, I doubt the needy care about the percentages here.
Besides, help (from everyone) is far more than money contributed: there's shelter, manpower, reconstruction, medical air, etc.
I heard the Army Corps of Engineers intend to build some temporary landing strips to break up the bottleneck in getting supplies in to affected areas.
Lotsa debris to clear though.
That (Canadian) idea of suspending all bebts to the countries hardest hit is a solid one. Hope that pans out- or else they'll drop from "third world" to hopelessly destitute.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Well indeed - it was mainly a point brought up a few days after it happened - when the US had only pledged a pityful amount of aid. Something happened to day - a plane broke down on a landing strip in Aceh. Nothing could land.
Let's hope that the people in Aceh stop killing each other and rebuild a peaceful society after this disaster. The news said fighting had stopped in some areas - since there was no one left alive to fight - they had all been washed away.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Very Biblical. Only a matter of time before more mainstream bozo's (not like the nut in the other thread)start spouting "will of God" nonsense.
Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
I think even they would have a difficult time claiming that their god had wiped out thousands of people across two continents just to stop a rebellion that's localized to one end of one island.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
I'm not claiming anything biblical.
I wonder if Muslim extremists and the people who support them can see the effort the 'West' is doing to help save millions of people - and in one country especially - the most populous muslim country in the world. Probably not.
Anyway this disaster did not descriminate, westerners, locals, muslims, christians, jews, hindus, buddists etc.
Posted by Ace (Member # 389) on :
Unfortunately, the Muslim extremists and their supporters probably won't see it in that light. They've probably taken America's initial not-well-received (read: viewed as stingy) offer of aid (granted, it did increase) as a reaffirmation that yes, America indeed is the great Satan and that Americans don't care about other people like good God (their god) fearing citizens.
It's very hard to see things clearly and to help people see things clearly when they've been indoctrinated so heavily in one way or the other (and of course everyone has their own bias no matter how small).
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Australia is donating a $1 billion aid package, I just read.
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
Well, I don't think anyone is going to accuse Australia of stinginess!
The Leader, now that He has returned, is talking about 'hundreds of millions of pounds' of aid. Although given that Our Glorious Government is now playing catch up with the public, I don't know how likely that'll be.
Also: The perils of historical ignorance...
quote: Tony Blair faced acute embarrassment yesterday after his offer of a company of Gurkhas to help Indonesia cope with the effects of the tsunami disaster was immediately rejected.
The Gurkhas were the main force deployed by the British against Indonesian forces who tried to take over Brunei in the early 1960s, fighting off a series of incursions.
Mr Blair's gaffe was made worse by the fact that the troops on offer were from the 2nd Bn the Royal Gurkha Rifles, which, as a result of its service, is still funded by the Sultan of Brunei to defend his country.
The Prime Minister, just back from holiday in Egypt, had hoped to defuse the criticism he faced by not cutting short his break to head Britain's aid effort and articulate the nation's feelings about the disaster.
He made the troops offer after chairing the daily meeting of the Government's South-East Asia emergency committee for the first time on Tuesday.
The Indonesian embassy in London questioned why he should want to send troops to the devastated province of Aceh when medical help and cash were urgently needed.
"What happened in Aceh is a pure humanitarian issue," a spokesman said. "Indonesia does not want to make it look like a military issue. If the Government wants to help, it should send doctors not troops."
In his first media appearance since the catastrophe, Mr Blair told the Radio 4 Today programme that the Government was doing everything it could and that it would outstrip the "immensely generous" donations from the public, now more than �76 million.
He promised that Government aid would rise from the �50 million already pledged to "several hundred million pounds" over the next few weeks.
Mr Blair has been angered by Tory criticism of the Government's response and defended his decision to stay on holiday after the scale of the crisis became clear. He said he had been kept fully informed while at his retreat on the Red Sea.
Asked whether his doctors had insisted on a long rest, he refused to answer.
"I took the view that the important thing was to get the job done," he said. The most important thing was "action not words".
The Ministry of Defence, explaining the decision to offer Gurkhas, said the 2nd Bn was "close at hand".
A spokesman said: "Given the dire situation, it was an offer we thought the Indonesians would take up."
Indonesia has accepted the help of Australian and American troops in Aceh. It has also accepted the offer of two British helicopters to add to the two on board the Royal Navy frigate Chatham.
The RAF has supplied two C17 and one C130 transport aircraft and the MoD said about 400 British military personnel were involved. More than 13,000 US military personnel are involved, including 12,000 aboard ships and 1,000 in Thailand. There are also US military personnel in Sri Lanka, Indonesia and Malaysia.
The Gurkhas were the main British force used during the four-year "confrontation", which began in 1962 when President Sukarno of Indonesia sought to prevent the absorption of the former British colonies in Borneo into Malaysia.
He had wanted to take the whole of Borneo into Indonesia and when Brunei hesitated over whether to join Malaysia, he saw his chance and sent forces across the border as the so-called North Kalimantan National Army. For the next four years the Gurkhas were engaged in operations against units of the Indonesian regular army in Sabah and Sarawak.
One member of the regiment won the Victoria Cross for his bravery in Sarawak on Nov 21, 1965.
Today Jack Straw, the Foreign Secretary, will represent the G8, of which Britain is president, at an international conference on the tsunami in the Indonesian capital Jakarta. Hilary Benn, the International Development Secretary, is to visit Aceh as well as Sri Lanka.
The Foreign Office announced that 41 Britons were now confirmed dead and 158 missing. More than 150,000 people are believed to have died.
As Australia became the largest donor by raising its pledge to �406 million and German aid was raised from �14 million to �353 million, a senior EU official said that countries should not treat the aftermath as a "beauty contest".
Louis Michel, the humanitarian assistance commissioner, said they should focus on pledges they could fulfil.
From the Telegraph.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote: As Australia became the largest donor by raising its pledge to �406 million and German aid was raised from �14 million to �353 million, a senior EU official said that countries should not treat the aftermath as a "beauty contest".
Louis Michel, the humanitarian assistance commissioner, said they should focus on pledges they could fulfil.
Um the EU can got and royally beguck itself! For crying out loud citizens of that so-called 'union' encountered the heaviest death-toll of visitors to the countries affected by the Tsunami! How short-sighted they are. These are the same countries that delightfully accepted all that aid in re-building their homelands after both world wars??
Australia is committed to $1 billion - $500 million direct financial aide, $500 in loads tax free for the next 40 years to Indonesia.
They are after all our closest (geographically) and largest neighbour.
America and the EU should stop worrying about the "politics" of the situation. This isn't about politics - it's about humans helping humans. It's an unfathomable amount of devestation and loss of life - over 150,000 people dead (possibly more) - villages, homes, towns raised off the face of the earth? Millions homless, starving, susceptible to disease - people losing their limbs to infection, thousands upon thousands of orphans (who also now are in danger of being taken away and being exploited - oh dear.
Some other things. Anyone see the man who survived on a tree 150km West of Aceh for 8 days. His child alerted him to the approaching wave and he went to the second story - then he watched as his family and himself were washed out to see. Several people survived with him on or around the tree for at least 2 days - and he watched them die and float away. He encountered a man in a pot - they talked for a day - he decided to make for shore. The man was picked up by a Japanese cargo ship!
There are also two dolphins that were swept into a stagnant pool by the tsunami!! They have today just gotten the mother out - but they are still trying with her calf.
I also saw in the paper today about the people who live on the Sentinel Islands South of the Andaman and Icobar islands - they are a 'primative' group who have lived their for something like 14,000 years - they don't let anyone on their islands - they attack with arrows. There is a shot of a naked Sentinelese man firing an arrow at a passing Helicopter. Marco Polo visited those islands! Anyway they reckon a number have survived because they can read the air, the wind and the ocean and probably could tell what was approaching!!
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: Um the EU can got and royally beguck itself! For crying out loud citizens of that so-called 'union' encountered the heaviest death-toll of visitors to the countries affected by the Tsunami! How short-sighted they are. These are the same countries that delightfully accepted all that aid in re-building their homelands after both world wars??
Oh, if only they would go and beguck themselves (I'm not entirely sure what that means but it sounds unpleasant)! I wouldn't pay too much attention to what the Eurocrats say. No one else does. Except DEFRA, but that's another story..
Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
Kofi Annan said the same thing ("this isn't a beauty contest" were his words). So the UN should beguck itself too.
If some Euro kommissar speaks, remember that he usually DOES NOT speak for the EU citizens, thank you very much. The EU and it's members have donated more money to relief funds than the US, and we are certainly not 'short-sighted'. Our governments may be a bit blunt, but there are countless of private actions collecting money, ranging from local pubs to large companies.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
Yeah, this should totally be a competition to see who has the biggest tax deductable dick.
Posted by Lee (Member # 393) on :
Well, at this point it's all coming down to what the various governments hope to get in return - redevelopment contracts and so forth. Or all those hotels and resorts in Thailand - they're going to be ailing financially, prime targets for being bought out by big chains.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I read an intresting letter to the Miami Herald today: It pointed out that while the Tsunami relief efforts are extremely imporntant, over 300,000 are dead in the Darfur region- women there live in constant fear of rape and murder, children are homeless, medical aid in nonexistant and bodies go unburied- but there's no international relief fund to rebuild that region.
Sucks that this is the only thing getting the aid it needs as some (seem) to want to out-donate their fellow countries.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Harry: If some Euro kommissar speaks, remember that he usually DOES NOT speak for the EU citizens, thank you very much.
Exactly, people like that should know when not to speak out of turn or 'place'.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
Where are people getting this 'countries are trying to out-donate other countries' competition? The are a lot of cynical people here. This is the largest humanitarian effort in recent memory. The more countries can give - the better! As I said before Indonesia is Australia's closest neighbour - what sort of neighbour would one be if they didn't aid people in their region?
Jason, the official death toll of all 12 affected countries has currently risen to 160,000. I don't know where they got 300,000 people dead in just one province from?
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sol System: Yeah, this should totally be a competition to see who has the biggest tax deductable dick.
Ron Jeremy? Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Jason, the official death toll of all 12 affected countries has currently risen to 160,000. I don't know where they got 300,000 people dead in just one province from?
It's not part of the Tsunami devestation, Andrew- it's a genocidal one.
Really, it seems that quite a lot of money has been donated, but little has been done to resolve the situation. ...and it's not in the news anymore at all (here anyway). Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
That situation just pisses me off. Every week, headlines are "UN says Darfur genocide REALLY NEEDS TO STOP NOW". For months.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
There's not a lot of oil in Sudan, is there? Or contracts to be had, or an easily visible dictator to be disposed, or anything of remote interest to the civilized Western world. Like there wasn't in Rwanda. Just a bunch of sandniggers with nothing to offer in return. Who cares if they wipe each other out?
Wait, was that too cynical?
(Now, obviously, the above ignores several facts, such as the Byzantine complexity of the Darfur conflict or the prominent role of the US in UNAMIR, but I think the point stands.)
"Where are people getting this 'countries are trying to out-donate other countries' competition?"
Well, gee, maybe RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD?
"This is the largest humanitarian effort in recent memory."
Yes, it is. And that's why this goddamn pissing contest of yours is really, really, REALLY bad form, GET IT? Australia isn't a fucking football team to cheer for because it scored more touchdowns than everyone else, it's just one country among many helping out. Accept that, and we can all live happily ever after.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: Jason, the official death toll of all 12 affected countries has currently risen to 160,000. I don't know where they got 300,000 people dead in just one province from?
It's not part of the Tsunami devestation, Andrew- it's a genocidal one.
Ooops! Sorry Jason. Yes, a friend from Africa told me that the fighting in Sudan is basically - when boiled down between different skin-colours! Crazy. I'm sure there are other things to it than that though. And rightly so - it should stop.
Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: "Where are people getting this 'countries are trying to out-donate other countries' competition?"
Well, gee, maybe RIGHT HERE IN THIS THREAD?
"This is the largest humanitarian effort in recent memory."
Yes, it is. And that's why this goddamn pissing contest of yours is really, really, REALLY bad form, GET IT? Australia isn't a fucking football team to cheer for because it scored more touchdowns than everyone else, it's just one country among many helping out. Accept that, and we can all live happily ever after.
Top shelf stuff there Cartman. Maybe I just like to put out there that there are countries in the world other than the Holier-than-thou States of South Canada that give a shit about things in the world. I know you'd never hear it from CNN or BBC World or Fox *spit* News. And maybe I feel proud that we are - a small nation - doing a lot more for our neighbours than a lot of other more wealthier and affluent nations - like most of the G8. Even New Zealand - if you go by that statistics site that is linked a few threads back has donated more per GDP than the US. Another cynically said that the more money the country puts in the more it wants stakes in re-building those countries... I think it's more a fact of - trying to save lives - cause for all the hundreds of thousands died by a few fucking big waves there are millions more who are at risk of dying - having no where to live, nothing to eat, no clean water, disease - the list goes on.
Not a pissing contest Cartman - call it pride.
Andrew
P.S. - we don't 'touch down' here in Australia - we don't wear padding and helmets.
Posted by Austin Powers (Member # 250) on :
The German government has upped its donation to 500 million Euros, which at the current exchange rate would be around 660 million US-Dollars. Add to that the 180 million Euros that came from private donations up to now and you have a German effort of around 900 million dollars. That's almost 11 dollars per citizen!
Actually I think it's not very smart of our government to pledge such a large amount in one go as it will undoubtedly increase the risk of the money getting lost in dark channels intstead of helping those in need.
Oh, and if any of you Non-EU-members hear a EU commisioner say something - you can be 100% SURE that what he says does NOT reflect the opinion of the European public in any way.
Fuck the EU, fuck the Brussel Eurocrats! They are a nightmare and completely unneeded. I would love to get rid of each and every one ot them!!!
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote: I know you'd never hear it from CNN or BBC World or Fox *spit* News. And maybe I feel proud that we are - a small nation - doing a lot more for our neighbours than a lot of other more wealthier and affluent nations - like most of the G8.
But it is on BBC at least. And you have made the point several times. I don't think anyone's been criticising Australia; given that Australia is the major regional power it's not all that surprising that Australia is being so generous. I think Cartman was mainly having ago at you for posting several 'Australia is now donating X more than the US/everyone else' and then saying that the 'pissing contest' is getting out of hand.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
This thread is surprisingly controversial.
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
Yeah. Sorry about that.
"Maybe I just like to put out there that there are countries in the world other than the Holier-than-thou States of South Canada that give a shit about things in the world."
That's all fine and well, but I think people out there are better served by what is actually being done, concretely and collectively, than by repeated totally misplaced utterances of national pride and patriotism over who has the thickest pocketbook.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
quote:Originally posted by Omega: That situation just pisses me off. Every week, headlines are "UN says Darfur genocide REALLY NEEDS TO STOP NOW". For months.
I was pissed about them saying that...what?...eight? Nine months ago?
I think there's a fear of getting into the kind of tactical quagmire the US is in (in Iraq, of course).
It also underlines the limits of the UN to do more than shout if the military powers of the security Council dont want to get involved. I'm not UN bashing here- it's just sad that the only solution to this is military intervention and it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
It reminds me of the almost two years of reports of mass graves in Bosnia before the problem got nightly attention on the news (ABC got the first U.S. reporters there, IIRC) and public opinion swayed to the point where the President (then Clinton) called for military action.
As though he did not know what was going on before then.
Worse still: the papers here carry NOTHING on the darfur region at all, but there's a biiig story each time some hollywood actor gets involved in Tsunami Relief (DiCaprio's mug was splashed acroos the "People" page in this week's [/i]Sun Sentinel).
Mabye frightened arabs are not as photogenic.
quote:Originally posted by Cartman: There's not a lot of oil in Sudan, is there? Or contracts to be had, or an easily visible dictator to be disposed, or anything of remote interest to the civilized Western world. Like there wasn't in Rwanda. Just a bunch of sandniggers with nothing to offer in return. Who cares if they wipe each other out?
Fuck Cartman, you make it sound as though the US is the only country capable of intervention there.
I'd pay real money to see France or Russia do anything even remotely humanitarian there.
Why bother when they wait for the US to intervene -too late- and snipe at the US from safety, right? It's keeping Chirac in office. Posted by AndrewR (Member # 44) on :
What about a UN-led contingent of African nations!?!
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Sure: just get the UN to unite them in a common cause first and then it'll be the year 3000 and....
Posted by Wraith (Member # 779) on :
quote:Originally posted by AndrewR: What about a UN-led contingent of African nations!?!
Well, that would be slightly more likely if any countries other than Kenya and South Africa had armed forces with decent peace keeping training. Not to mention the money issue.
quote: I'd pay real money to see France or Russia do anything even remotely humanitarian there.
The French don't really have sufficient capacity to do anything; their armed forces are only marginally less overstretched than ours and interventions like this are expensive. And so you really want Russian conscripts blundering around the place?
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
Not really, no. It's just irksome that everyone knows the UK/US will (eventually) get involved as part of a UN "solution" and half of the critics will scream about supposed US imperilistic leanings and the other half will will scream we did not act sooner because there was no oil there or whatever....
Meanwhile, the news' big soundbite-question is "will this outpouring of aid to a mostly muslim improve how muslims view America?" while ignoring that the critics in muslim countries will be shouting about the dead in Darfur.
Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
I think you might want to look at who is killing whom in Sudan.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
I know, those responsible are arabs- but consider that several arab government officials (Egypt in particular though I dont have names here at work) have been very vocal in calling for an end to the bloodshed. A peaceful resolution- would go a looong way to restoring the immage of the US as "only helping when it's in our intrests".
The Us military would not have o directly engage the Sudanese military to stop things (or at least slow them down dramatically): they could provide security for the thousands of fleeing refugees (many of whom are being killed like ducks in a row near the borders and in makeshit tent cities on the way).
Just a UN/Coalition presense would curb the violence: the sudanese government would then be forced to at least consider caling off the attacks for fear of beig toppled: right now they act with increased impunity as NOTHING has been done despite the UN's repeated "calls for the violence to stop".
Posted by Cartman (Member # 256) on :
"...you make it sound as though the US is the only country capable of intervention there."
*sigh*
I would explain my worldview (in which nothing is about capability and everything is about willingness and cost-benefit analyses), but it's late, and I don't want to wake up to another misconstrued point. Again.
Posted by Jason Abbadon (Member # 882) on :
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and they'll need to do more than match the public's contribution to please us in Ilkeston - that's for sure. �25,000,000 - is that all they can spare? Come on Labour - put some fucking effort into it you lame wankers - people are dying out there!!!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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