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[QUOTE]Originally posted by First of Two: [QB] Baloo: Smarter than the average bear. [IMG]http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif[/IMG] (yeah, I know, that's supposed to be Yogi, but hey, it fits.) Anyways... all the above continues to suppose that the legend in which an astronomical portent precedes the birth of a messianic figure is original to the New Testament... which it isn't. The existence of the conjunction is, however, an interesting coincidence to base a legend on.. similar to that of the "celectial convergence" of several planets in a pattern a few years ago, during one of the occurances of which, centuries ago, Ghengis Khan was born, or of the curious coincidence of Mark Twain and Halley's comet. Frankly, if you look hard enough, you can find an odd coincidence for everyone. And stellar coincidences for many. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>The_Tom</b> <br /><small>Member # 38</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,23,13,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 23, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:23 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> For somewhat obvious reasons, this is here.<P>Some thoughts on "the star"<P> <A HREF="http://abcnews.go.com/abc2000/abc2000science/christmasstar991220.html" TARGET=_blank>http://abcnews.go.com/abc2000/abc2000science/christmasstar991220.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>"Is this real life? Is this just fantasy?"<BR>-Queen, <I>Bohemian Rhapsody</I><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Elim Garak</b> <br /><small>Member # 14</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,23,18,24,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 23, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:24 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Is there any particular reason why one might believe it was a star, anyway? I mean, wasn't it supposed to be directly above Bethlehem? If that's the case, it would have to be in orbit or in the atmosphere so that it could be seen properly from eitehr direction and have a "stopping point" above Bethlehem, yes?<P>*confused*<P>------------------<BR>Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Baloo</b> <br /><small>Member # 5</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,23,22,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 23, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:01 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, the Bible isn't very clear on this particular item. Only one of the four witnesses (gospels) declares that the star went and stood over the manger. <I>That</I> gospel was rendered in a rather poetic style, so the author could have been using poetic license.<P>Most of the gospels that mention wise men (not "Three Kings", as in the song) also mention they came from the east, and that they saw a star in the east. This suggests that they were astrologers and saw signs in the zodiac that predicted a great king to be born in (what was then) Judea. It just so happens that there was a conjunction of planets in the zodiacal sign that (to the Persians) represented Judea, and these signs could be interpreted to signify a birth of a king.<P>That theory (presented to me at the Mather AFB planetarium as part of their "What was the Christmas star?" program) seemed the most plausible of the "naturally occurring" events presented. There were (to my knowledge) no novas or comets appearing during that streetch of time, so I don't think the star could have been one of those. As far as I'm concerned, I'm fairly convinced that the "Star of Bethlehem" was an interpretation of an astrological observation, though my mind is open enough to allow for supernatiral signs.<P>In that case, however, why didn't the whole region's astrologers remark on this unique star? After all, these guys were professional, meticulous observers of the night sky, regardless of what you think of astrology. Besides, if it had been such an obviously unusual celestial event, wouldn't Herod have known exactly where to send his assassins?<P>--Baloo<P>------------------<BR>When only the police have guns, it's called a police state.<BR>-- Bumper Sticker<BR><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm</A><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Elim Garak</b> <br /><small>Member # 14</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,24,9,1,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 24, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:01 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Ooh, I like that thought, Baloo.<P>------------------<BR>Elim Garak: "Oh, it's just Garak. Plain, simple Garak. Now, good day to you, Doctor. I'm so glad to have made such an... interesting new friend today." (DS9: "Past Prologue") <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,25,19,51,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 25, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:51 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Baloo: Smarter than the average bear. <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><BR>(yeah, I know, that's supposed to be Yogi, but hey, it fits.)<P>Anyways... all the above continues to suppose that the legend in which an astronomical portent precedes the birth of a messianic figure is original to the New Testament... which it isn't. The existence of the conjunction is, however, an interesting coincidence to base a legend on.. similar to that of the "celectial convergence" of several planets in a pattern a few years ago, during one of the occurances of which, centuries ago, Ghengis Khan was born, or of the curious coincidence of Mark Twain and Halley's comet.<P>Frankly, if you look hard enough, you can find an odd coincidence for everyone. And stellar coincidences for many.<P>------------------<BR>Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Baloo</b> <br /><small>Member # 5</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,25,20,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 25, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">08:30 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Astrology itself leaves much to be desired, as a science. It isn't standardized, and there is a multitude of (often conflicting) systems (nearly as many as there are practicioners).<P>The case for Mark Twain and Halley's comet has a bit more documentation, but I wonder how many completely obscure people were born at or about the same time, and how many of <I>those</I> died at about the same time.<P>If you were paying attention to the last comet, it was visible for long enough that hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people were very likely born while it was around. How many of them will be famous, and how many obscure?<P>--Baloo<P>------------------<BR>Some drink at the fountain of knowledge... others just gargle.<BR>--MoosieGirl (From the SDMB)<BR><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm</A><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dane Simri</b> <br /><small>Member # 272</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(1999,11,30,12,28,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">December 30, 1999</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:28 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Random musings on a good thread...<P>Actually, Baloo, only one of the gospel witnesses (of the four accepted by Protestants and Catholics as canon) mentions the magi, or wise men. Their story is told in Matthew 2:1-12. <P>As far as the star is concerned... the above-mentioned passage says the star "appeared" at a certain time, then "went ahead of them until it stopped over the place where the child was." Aside from all the scientific explanations, I offer one more: A miracle, perhaps? A completely supernatural event, orchestrated by the Creator to herald the entrance of His Son into the world? Certainly such an event would be well within the power of the God of the Bible.<P>I guess it all comes down to what (or whom) you place your faith in.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Dane<P>"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7<BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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