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The ghost of Woodrow Wilson haunts Iraqi debate.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jason Abbadon: [QB] Leaving now would be seen as abandoning the country to the whims of the other UN members (and look at the great job they did for Iraq already with the Oil for Food debacle) and Iraq would become the launchpad for generations of terrorists. Of course, it will anyway if we keep fucking up and abusing prisoners. Best bet: let the Iraqis make as many decisions as possible (without the government breaking apart under old rivalries), establish an all Iraqi police force loyal to the new government and pull back our forces very publicly by degrees. Not in retreat, but rather by publically handing over control to the locals. Elect a new (not a puppett) government leader as soon as possible (both in Iraq and here). Make Liam wrire 10,000 word essays on the issue. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Highway Hoss</b> <br /><small>Member # 1289</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,4,21,8,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 04, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:08 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Hre's an interesting article I found: <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0504-15.htm" target="_blank">Drop the Perverse Wilsonianism and Get Out Now</a> Amazing how similar Wilson and Bush are as far as faith is concerned. It just goes to show that presidents who base their policies on misguided idealism end up getting you into real trouble.... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,4,21,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 04, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:55 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Y'know, it's strange that you can constantly cite this idiotoic website and then call them "disgusting" in the Pat Tillman thread.<br />This is the same site that equated TIllman's death with the military and the NFL.<br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><strong> America's military industrial establishment both reap billions from the actions of young African-American men, many of whom end up broke, maimed or both. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">A bigger crock of shit is tough to imagine.<br /><br /><br />This so-called "newscenter" is as rabid in it's left-leanings as anything I've seen from the political right. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jay the Obscure</b> <br /><small>Member # 19</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,4,22,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 04, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:14 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, not to get all technical on you, but the article in question is an opinion piece from the <i>Providence Journal</i>, a Rhode Island newspaper, and the author of the piece is publisher of Harper's Magazine.<br /><br />Neither of which is beyond the pale.<br /><br />If you look at the articles that Common Dreams posts, you will see that many are not Common Dreams original content. Most are opinion pieces gathered from other, more mainstream news sources.<br /><br />None of which is to suggest the guy is right. The time to challenge the ideology of all this was <i>before</i> we invaded. Now we actually <i>do</i> have an obligation to Iraq.<br /><br />What we <i>can</i> do now, as I read in some column that I can remember, is vote to remove the person who took us there.<br /> <br /> <small>[ May 04, 2004, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: Jay the Obscure ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,5,12,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 05, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:35 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Yeah, it's just a collection of the most rabidly left-leaning articles in the land.<br />Not their originator.<br /><br />Still, it's like seeing a story on FOX news from one of their affiliates: you <i>know</i> the angle it's coming from. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cartman</b> <br /><small>Member # 256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,5,14,18,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 05, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:18 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Leaving Iraq now while the place is in shambles would be catastrophic.<br /><br />Staying there while the same politically-challenged individuals are allowed to play with its future like toddlers in a sandbox for another four years would be even MORE catastrophic.<br /><br />It's the worst case of historical catch-22 I've ever seen. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,5,15,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 05, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:35 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Leaving now would be seen as abandoning the country to the whims of the other UN members (and look at the great job they did for Iraq already with the Oil for Food debacle) and Iraq would become the launchpad for generations of terrorists.<br /><br />Of course, it will anyway if we keep fucking up and abusing prisoners.<br /><br />Best bet: let the Iraqis make as many decisions as possible (without the government breaking apart under old rivalries), establish an all Iraqi police force loyal to the new government and pull back our forces very publicly by degrees.<br />Not in retreat, but rather by publically handing over control to the locals.<br /><br />Elect a new (not a puppett) government leader as soon as possible (both in Iraq and here).<br /><br />Make Liam wrire 10,000 word essays on the issue. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Highway Hoss</b> <br /><small>Member # 1289</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,5,21,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 05, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Jason Abbadon:<br /><strong>Best bet: let the Iraqis make as many decisions as possible (without the government breaking apart under old rivalries), establish an all Iraqi police force loyal to the new government and pull back our forces very publicly by degrees.<br />Not in retreat, but rather by publically handing over control to the locals.<br /><br />Elect a new (not a puppett) government leader as soon as possible (both in Iraq and here).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0504-07.htm" target="_blank">A recent article</a> suggested a similar scenario based fully on Iraqi nationalism. Let's face it, as long as the US insists on holding control of any kind in Iraq it is going to be fiercely resisted by Iraqis. As for those who think US troops ar eneeded to "stabilize" Iraq, keep in mind that to most Iraqis, thoses troops ARE the destabilizing element. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,5,21,40,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 05, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:40 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> But we cant just pull stakes, hand the police (or whoever) the keys and boogey on home either.<br />We have to establish some kind of governmental structure that the people will support (at least long enough for the country to hold together until they make something that'll last in it's place).<br />Otherwise you get civil war.<br /><br />And yes, the US would be blamed for that as well.<br />...and we'd deserve it. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Cartman</b> <br /><small>Member # 256</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,6,13,46,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 06, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:46 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The thing about democracy that nobody seems to understand is that it only works if everybody WANTS it.<br /><br /><i>"Leaving now would be seen as abandoning the country to the whims of the other UN members..."</i><br /><br />No, it would be seen as abandoning the country to the whims of the fundies who are all too eager to step in and fill the power vacuum for themselves. Do you really think the other UN members will risk burning their fingers on Iraq at this stage?<br /><br /><i>"Best bet: let the Iraqis make as many decisions as possible (without the government breaking apart under old rivalries), establish an all Iraqi police force loyal to the new government and pull back our forces very publicly by degrees.<br />Not in retreat, but rather by publically handing over control to the locals."</i><br /><br />Just one problem with that bet: THE Iraqi people don't exist. Any government representing all the factions and their beliefs (assuming they even COULD be united long enough to form one) would crumble under internal feuds in its first week and plunge Iraq right into civil war. You can't hand over control until you've pulled back your forces, and you can't pull back your forces until you've handed over control. You're screwed.<br /><br /><i>"We have to establish some kind of governmental structure that the people will support..."</i><br /><br />Yeah, but just what structure is that when the people have known nothing but dictatorship for thirty years? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jason Abbadon</b> <br /><small>Member # 882</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2004,4,7,0,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">May 07, 2004</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:21 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Cartman:<br /><strong> <i>"We have to establish some kind of governmental structure that the people will support..."</i><br /><br />Yeah, but just what structure is that when the people have known nothing but dictatorship for thirty years? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why....a Monarchy, of course! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <br /><br />I want to see an elderly white european woman making decisions for all of Iraq.<br />After all, if they're going to hate whatever government we install anyway, why not make it something <i>really</i> despised-<br />for the history books. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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