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[QUOTE]Originally posted by First of Two: [QB] They SHOULD want to take advantage of that system. They should also want to EAT, which is why they would take the jobs, since it's rather difficult to get a higher-paying job WITHOUT an education first. You work the menial job until you finish college, and then you work the high-paying job, and the menial job opens up for the next guy. There will always be next guys. (In the very unlikely event we should run out of next guys, we automate.) Nobody's penalized. An immigrant has the same ability to earn education votes as anybody else, (less time then a child, perhaps, but they're also entering the system fully-formed, which means they can catch up) and the same ability to earn monetary votes as well. There are numerous stories of poor immigrants who became wealthy. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,11,9,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:09 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> (With thanks to Mark Twain)<br />I still think this may be the best possible idea for a system of government ever developed.<br /><br />I suppose a lot of people wouldn't go for it though, as it rewards drive and ambition.<br /><br /><a href="http://www.michaelduff.net/gondour.html" target="_blank">http://www.michaelduff.net/gondour.html</a><br /> <br /> <small>[ March 12, 2002, 11:10: Message edited by: First of Two ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,11,15,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">11:15 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Gee, Rob, I don't know ... I sort of like it when people have an equal say in their government regardless of religion, skin color, sex, or education. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,12,0,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:00 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, three out of four isn't bad. And education is still voluntary (and free), and you must have missed that a smart man can still accumulate votes without an education, and you must have missed that everyone has one vote, anyway.<br /><br />It's just that those who can run their lives, those who are actually interested in improving their lives and themselves (and by extension, the country) get more say about how their country is run.<br /><br />Since the well-educated are said to tend to be more liberal, and since learning tends to be more easy to obtain than money (we would need to include an amendment that states that 'inheritors' must start from scratch, votewise.), one would think that the liberals would end up outnumbering the conservatives, and that you'd be in favor of that. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Sol System</b> <br /><small>Member # 30</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,12,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:12 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> A brief and out of context paragraph from an essay by Neal Stephenson, which despite being brief and out of context is, I think interesting to consider:<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> But more importantly, it comes out of the fact that, during this century, intellectualism failed, and everyone knows it. In places like Russia and Germany, the common people agreed to loosen their grip on traditional folkways, mores, and religion, and let the intellectuals run with the ball, and they screwed everything up and turned the century into an abbatoir. Those wordy intellectuals used to be merely tedious; now they seem kind of dangerous as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Vogon Poet</b> <br /><small>Member # 393</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,12,17,30,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 12, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:30 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">It's just that those who can run their lives, those who are actually interested in improving their lives and themselves (and by extension, the country) get more say about how their country is run.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah yes, the rallying cry of the establishment. Those on the lower rungs of society, the disadvantaged etc., they could easily improve their lot if they wanted to, but they're just lazy and looking for a free ride. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>EdipisReks</b> <br /><small>Member # 510</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,0,3,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:03 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <i>in the beginning...was the command line</i> is a great essay, <b>Sol System</b>, and good choice on the quote.<br /><br />--jacob<br /> <br /> <small>[ March 13, 2002, 00:04: Message edited by: EdipisReks ]</small> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,9,12,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:12 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Sorry, Vogon, but you lost me.<br /><br />You have to be lazy not to take advantage of a free education... lazy, or stupid. Neither of which makes a good voter.<br /><br />I'm not counting the physically disabled here, as a physically disabled person can learn just as well as a physically able person.<br /><br />True, this could lessen the enfranchisement of the mentally-disabled and learning-disabled, but the latter can still be assisted, while the former... isn't capable of making informed decisions, and thus shouldn't.<br /><br />And of course we'd have to drastically change the ways in which our schools are funded, to insure that everyone has the opportunity for an equal amount and quality of education. Fortunately, people would have more incentive to demand that.<br /><br />You may call that the 'rallying cry of the establishment' all you want, but you'll have to do better than that to convince me that what you're saying has any basis in fact.<br /><br />Yes, we don't do enough to ensure equal opportunity, but Gondour presupposes that that changes. In fact, it relies on it.<br /><br />And opportunity is all anybody needs. Taking advantage of it, well, that's up to you.<br /><br />Look at me, I'm making more than 150% of what I made last year, and I'm doing maybe 75% of the work I did last year. Maybe less. Why? I kept my eyes and ears open, networked, worked hard enough that I could list achievements that would make another employer interested in me, saw an opportunity, and I took it. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,9,17,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:17 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> So people would get PhDs to flip hamburgers? Who would pick up the garbage and deliver the newspapers? <br /><br />And what about people who needed to supply for their families, and put that before an education? <br /><br />And since you've already said that the reason you got your job was divine intervention ... <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,9,45,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:45 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> People who supply for their families (although what they're doing having offspring before finishing school is generally their choice -- and before you talk about your 'friend,' he should be getting generous and liberal assistance to raise siblings) are insuring that their offspring have a better chance at gaining votes.<br /><br />See, until a few years ago, one of the main paternal concepts was the idea that as a parent, you should be working hard so that while YOU might not have a spectacular life, your children would have a better shot at one through the fruits of your labor. They called this 'parental responsibilty' and properly denigrated those who had offspring and still shirked that duty. (Those of us who are not having children are free to act solely for the betterment of ourselves and/or spouses.) It was one of the major concepts on which this country was built, and which many early immigrant families followed.<br /><br />Zechariah never had any formal schooling, and worked in the mine, but he recognized the value of education and sent his son Jedediah to school.<br />Jedediah never went beyond secondary school, but he farmed hard and saved money and send his kid Josef to trade school.<br />Josef only had a trade school education, but he worked hard at his trade and sent his son Nathaniel to College.<br />Nathaniel got his B.A. in Accounting or somesuch, got a decent job, saved and sent his son Alexander to University.<br />Alexander worked hard and got a PhD.<br />etc.<br /><br />This pattern was replicated all over the US for two centuries. It works, and it's open to anyone. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,10,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:07 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Rob, <br /><br />But who will flip burgers? Who will deliver newspapers, and collect the garbage? Why do you always avoid questions that blow big holes in your arguements? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,10,59,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:59 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But who will flip burgers? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Students and people saving to make their kids lives better, same as now. Or you could do what I do sometimes and make your own burgers at home.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Who will deliver newspapers, and collect the garbage? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Same thing.<br /><br />As long as there are new arrivals, people with lesser ambitions, and people who just mess up, there will be people to do these tasks.<br /><br />I mean, I'm doing the job I'm doing right now, because I was ambitious enough to do it... but I had the ABILITY to be a computer engineer, or to earn a doctorate, but I didn't have that ambition.<br /><br /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Why do you always avoid questions that blow big holes in your arguements?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Why do you always ask questions that 4 seconds of thought could answer for you, and then pretend that you're making grand leaps of masterful insight? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,12,7,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:07 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Nice soundbyte, Rob, but it doesn't answer anything. <br /><br />The guy who goes through college isn't going to want to flip burgers at McDonalds, or even manage people who do. He's going to want to work at the corporate office. <br /><br />And most students are going to want work that prepares them for their careers -- collecting garbage, flipping burgers -- they're not going to want those jobs.<br /><br />Your whole arguement seems based on the idea that the service industries can be staffed by students working part-time. It can't be. This is the fundemental flaw, Rob, and one that a quick soundbyte just doesn't answer. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,12,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:20 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> OKay, let's reduce this farther.<br /><br />Can you admit that there are people who don't always live up to their fullest potential? Either from making a conscious decision not to, or simply from laking a potential as great as others? Surely you must know of people who squandered their potential, or had the ability but not the desire, or simply weren't the sharpest tool in the shed? I knew a guy with a Master's in Physics who sold comic books. My dad worked with a man with Master's in Education and mathematics who gave it up to drive big rigs.<br /><br />And I didn't just say students. If you'll look back, I included immigrants. Menial labor wasn't too demeaning for the last 12 generations who came here, it won't be tomorrow, either. A professor of mine once commented that he thought places like McDonalds were good places for immigrants to work for starters, because there was a lot of language repetition (with visual aids -- they have menus for people who can't speak english or read) and not a whole lot of job complexity. Who drives NYC Taxis? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Malnurtured Snay</b> <br /><small>Member # 411</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,12,26,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:26 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">You have to be lazy not to take advantage of a free education... lazy, or stupid. Neither of which makes a good voter</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Ah, but see this is what I'm taking to task. Why would immigrants NOT want to take advantage of a free education? And if they didn't, why should they be penalized in their voting power because they're working the service industry? <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,13,12,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 13, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">12:35 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> They SHOULD want to take advantage of that system. They should also want to EAT, which is why they would take the jobs, since it's rather difficult to get a higher-paying job WITHOUT an education first.<br /><br />You work the menial job until you finish college, and then you work the high-paying job, and the menial job opens up for the next guy. There will always be next guys. (In the very unlikely event we should run out of next guys, we automate.)<br /><br />Nobody's penalized. An immigrant has the same ability to earn education votes as anybody else, (less time then a child, perhaps, but they're also entering the system fully-formed, which means they can catch up) and the same ability to earn monetary votes as well. There are numerous stories of poor immigrants who became wealthy. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>PsyLiam</b> <br /><small>Member # 73</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2002,2,14,10,23,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">March 14, 2002</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:23 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> "And most students are going to want work that prepares them for their careers -- collecting garbage, flipping burgers -- they're not going to want those jobs."<br /><br />No, but when all they want is a part-time job so that they can afford books and beer, it's often all they can get. <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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