T O P I C ��� R E V I E W
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Diane
Member # 53
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posted
I was reading an article from Discover on intersexual children and thought of this scenario based on actual events:Suppose a child is born with one testicle, no vaginal opening, a rudimentary uterus, one fallopian horn, an undeveloped ovary, and a phallus larger than a clitorus but lacks many structures of the penis. Then, the doctors operated on "it" and took out the male organs, as intersexual children are often judged to be "under-equipped" to be male. Now suppose that this child grows up as a girl, but when she hit puberty, she identified as a male. Now, would she be considered "homosexual"? And for those Christians who'd recommend "healing" for homosexuals, what constitutes healing for her? A sex-change to male or orientation-change to female? Oh, and one in every 2000 children are born intersexual, about the same rate as cystic fibrosis. ------------------ --Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant? --I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent? James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
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Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs
Member # 239
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posted
Well, that's an interesting case. (Isn't the term used 'hermaphrodite?' (sp) )I don't think he/she would be considered homosexual, due to the fact that he/she can lay claim to both orientations because of his/her condition. In this situation, I believe it would be up to the individual him/herself, and allow him/her to decide which 'side of the plate' he/she'd like to swing on. And then take appropriate measures. Interesting example, Tora. ------------------ "I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee
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Omega
Member # 91
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posted
I think I agree with Ultra on this one. Just pick one, and stick with it.------------------ "Arthur hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realised there was a contradiction there and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife."
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bryce
Member # 42
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posted
Well, as Christians we need to let God handle that, and as humans we need to increase gene therapy to prevent disorders such as Turner's and Klinefelter's (sp.). Besides, the extreme you just described does not happen to my knowledge, and we spent a few days on this last semester. ------------------ If the laws of the land were given to a society should not we take the laws away now?
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Baloo
Member # 5
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posted
Ultra Magnus: You spelled "hermaphrodite" correctly. I was unaware that the term was no longer correct, but had heard the term "intergender". Sounds to me like the docs are going P.C.If I recall correctly, I read the same (or a similar) article. The problem lies in that Doctors aren't equipped or trained to identify which orientation a child with malformed generative organs is likely to assume. One (highly unusual, but not unheard of) case that was cited was an infant male, whose genitalia were horribly damaged and burned during a botched circumcision (Yeesh! What were they using? A torch?!?). The doctors decided that, since there was no repairing the male genitalia, they would reconstruct the genitalia as female, and the parents would raise him as a girl. Despite hormone treatments, etc., applies when puberty would normally have begun, the child developed a preference for females. As an adult, he eventually opted for [surgical and hormonal] gender reassignment. He sued the doctors who botched his circumcision, and I suppose he's none too happy that his parents went along with the deal, but what the hell, doctors are SUPPOSED TO know more about these things than we. I annoy some military doctors, since I know what questions to ask so they can't give a prepared answer. If they have to think, they're more likely to give the best answer they can, rather than the one they think will make you shut up and listen to the doctor. Some doctors actually like having to think about their answers, since the reason they got into medicine in the first place was to help people (making piles of money is just a pleasant side-effect). In (faint) defense of the doctors, at the time, it was thought to be kinder (to the child) to raise it as definitely one gender or the other. This would supposedly save it the stress of not knowing which gender it was supposed to be. Guess what? He figured it out on his own! At the time, who knew? --Baloo ------------------ When only the police have guns, it's called a police state. -- Bumper Sticker http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
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Diane
Member # 53
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posted
Bryce: It does happen. Everything I suggested in the scenario came from some fact or another on the article.------------------ --Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant? --I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent? James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.
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bryce
Member # 42
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posted
Everyone of those happened to one kid?With greater care I think all this could be taken care of. You see modern science thinks the Y chromosome releases the ability for a fetus to become a male. Therefore, all of us start out female, and drugs (in the future) should be able to ensure either the Y gives enough Testosterone or the two Xs work fine. ------------------ Peace on Earth
[This message has been edited by bryce (edited December 24, 1999).]
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Epoch
Member # 136
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posted
Actually if the child is raised as a girl the child will believe and act as a female without much of a second thought. The way a child is raised (either as a boy or girl) is how they will behave. And if any of you wish to have it explained better then my sparse and barely readable explination feel free to talk to my socialogy prof.------------------ Death before Dishonor! However Dishonor has quite a disputed defintion.
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Baloo
Member # 5
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posted
Tec: I disagree. Your sociology Prof is telling you one of several theories. In the nature v.s. nurture debate, the opinion seems to swing back and forth between both extremes, but I'd bet that the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between.I have met and known some very dyke, but definitely heterosexual women, as well as some very effeminate but rampantly heterosexual males. Likewise, there are masculine and feminine homosexuals, both male and female. While there is some correlation between gender and behavior, it does not hold true in every case. Likewise, gender and sexual preference are closely, but not universally linked. --Baloo ------------------ When only the police have guns, it's called a police state. -- Bumper Sticker http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm
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RW
Member # 27
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posted
Nobody told Bryce this happens. The trick of religions is not telling people the truth.No doubt, god will smite me for this, but still.
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Sunspot
Member # 77
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posted
If there was a God, why would he allow such terrible things to occur to "His children"?------------------ If the government has no knowledge of aliens, then why does Title 14, Section 1211 of the Code of Federal Regulations, implemented on July 16, 1969, make it illegal for U.S. citizens to have any contact with extraterrestrials or their vehicles? My Stuff!
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
if there was? Then the only possible answers would be : He's a looney, or he's obeying His "prime directive" of non-interference (invalidating the Bible, in which He is a constant presence).A couple of things: 1.) I think hermaphroditism is different, in that hermaphrodites are supposed to have (when last I heard, anway), BOTH sets of genetalia. My information could be incorrect. 2.) The problems with intergender children DO occur as described. I recall a documentary not so long ago, which some children who were "reconstructed" and raised to be one gender, but turned out to be genetically AND emotionally oriented towards being the opposite gender. 3a.) "Let God handle it." -- I didn't know you were a "Christian Scientist." Yes, He's doing so well with other equally rare mutation diseases... ------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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RW
Member # 27
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posted
I love your replies. I'll make you my Messiah.Joking! No more Messiahs of course!
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bryce
Member # 42
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posted
*shakes head, goes to lunch*You know RW, my Christian college spent two days on this in my basic Bio course. They are not hidding anything. ------------------ Peace on Earth
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
"E's NOT the Messiah, E's a very naughty boy!" -- Monty Python's The Life of BrianSeriously. If yer talkin about me, I'd rather not. Messiah's have a rather nasty tendency to end up croaked. Ask Apollonius of Tyre (a precursor myth to that of Jesus that I'll bet they won't teach you about at that college of yours -- or most others, for that matter) Two days in a basic biology course, and they talk about homosexuality? Priorities, people??? *sigh* ------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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PsyLiam
Member # 73
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posted
Okay, can we PLEAAASSSEEE add "If god exists, why does he allow bad things to happen?" and its endless permeatations to the list of things NEVER to say. Because1/ All the possible answers have been explained. 2/ If you believe them, you believe them. If you don't, then you don't. And as much fun as it is for me to bang my head against the table while First and Omega argue yet again, I believe that there are more interesting points. Strictly speaking, it's not the XY or XX chromosome, but the amount of testosterone (or whatever) that the feotus recieves at a critical time in development. If the Y or X chromosome malfunctions, it's still possible to end up with a 6"2' 15 stone Rugby player who piles down bitter like it's the apocalypse and then shags a woman dirty every night, and still have a XX chromosome pair if he received enough adrenalin. He will be male physically and mentally. But he won't be able to compete in male events at the Olympics. Strange that. Also, why didn't the doctors of tese intergender babies DO an XY/XX test? ------------------ "Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass." Geraldo Rivera
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
Incidentally, my statement #1 WAS incorrect. This marks the first time in the preceeding millennium that I was wrong. ------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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Justin_Timberland
Member # 236
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posted
Well I couldn't care less why I'm gay, nor would I want to be *straight*. When I was 13, I started to realize that I liked guys, I was looking at people I went to class with. I thought I was going insane and thought it was a stage. Then after a year, I knew I was gay and accepted it. Now I think to myself wether I like Filipino guys more or Thai guys because both are fun in bed.------------------ Sometimes I run Sometimes I hide Sometimes I'm scared of you But all I really want is to hold you tight Treat you right, be with you day and night Baby all I need is time -Britney Spears
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DT
Member # 80
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posted
Good point First. But what about Eddie Vedder? He hasn't died yet. Oh, wait, he told me that he's not my fucking messiah (his words, not mine). Damn!Looks like I have to go back to Spoonman! Spoonman, come together with your hands. Spoonman, I'm together with your plan. Save me! ------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
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DT
Member # 80
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posted
Oooh, I got to weigh in on the "Why does god let bad things happen?" thread. I can answer in relation to my god, Eddie Vedder (in my trinity, he's god, Kurt is the Messiah, since he died for our sins, and Noel Gallagher is the active force, since he still rocks). "Like, we get thousands of letters a week from people who want some kind of help. I've had people sending me notes saying they're going to commit suicide and I've called them up, and some of them, man, they're beyond help. But you're in this position where you start to think there must be something you can do, you know. So maybe I'm more tortured now, because I feel like there's more I should be doing. But you can't help everybody and if you say, 'Well, I'll help this person, but there's nothing I can do right now for that person,' it's even worse, because then you do start acting like God. Because there are so many people who deserve whatever help you can give them."
That's from an interview with Melody Maker magazine. Now, if that's how Eddie feels, if there was actually a god, I am sure he'd feel the same way. ------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
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First of Two
Member # 16
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posted
No, because God (as advertised) is omnipotent and omniscient, and therefore CAN help everybody. He just chooses not to. For no reason yet justified. And when you ask you get this runaround about "where were you when I made the whale" or some such rot.When you can't help but want to, that's excusable. When you CAN help, but don't... ------------------ Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson
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DT
Member # 80
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posted
Eddie Vedder isn't omnipotent? Screw you! I know he is! I have faith in him! Next you're going to tell me that Kurt wasn't sent here from Seattle to die for our sins.------------------ "All in all is all we are" - Kurt Cobain All Apologies, Nirvana
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PsyLiam
Member # 73
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posted
Personally, I think to myself whether Chinese girls are more fun to shag that caucassian girls.Now, is that offensive? ------------------ "Obesity. Adiposity. Corpulence. Whatever word you use, it represents one thing: being a big fatass." Geraldo Rivera
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited January 07, 2000).]
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Justin_Timberland
Member # 236
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posted
It's not wrong. It's wrong though when you start attacking someone's boyfriend...*Looks at Ultra with a trigger-happy look* ------------------ Sometimes I run Sometimes I hide Sometimes I'm scared of you But all I really want is to hold you tight Treat you right, be with you day and night Baby all I need is time -Britney Spears
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Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs
Member # 239
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posted
What, er, What the f**k are you talking about Justin? Hey Dude, how did I personally attack your boyfriend there?The only thing I've said in this thread had nothing to do with you or Mike. ------------------ "I've never seen anything this beautiful in the entire galaxy. Alright, give me the bomb" -Ultra Magnus, Fight or Flee [This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited January 08, 2000).]
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