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[QUOTE]Originally posted by First of Two: [QB] Dane, you said: "Being perfectly good, God cannot stand the presence of badness..." I assume you mean in his PHYSICAL presence, since there seems to be an awful lot of "badness" around this planet, and in "Hell," and that seems to be just fine by Him. Jaresh: Honestly? Yes, it would affect my impressions, although probably not enough to change them. Although I'll admit freely to being a bit prejudiced in that area, my opinion of a person's character and intelligence does not depend on the religion they follow (except "Satanism." Satanism is shallow and stupid. The 'hedonistic' kind even moreso, for calling itself 'satanism.') You would need to assure me that your political beliefs sprang from your reasoned considerations, rather than being simply a by-product of your religious beliefs, as they are to so many. Being who I am, I could never accept the "Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it" mindset. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="1" width="95%" align="center"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"><td> <table border="0" width="100%" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="1"> <tr bgcolor="#234c6f"> <td colspan="2" align="left"> <font size="3" color="#FFFFFF" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>T O P I C ��� R E V I E W</b> </font></td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Baloo</b> <br /><small>Member # 5</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,2,19,31,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">07:31 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> [The following is an inexpert opinion. If you disagree, please address the ideas rather than the author. I didn't expend this much effort just to piss you off. Please expend no effort to do so to me. <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/wink.gif">]<P>A few folks have stated that their life is better since they established a loving relationship with God. This might be misleading to some folks. Keep in mind that some interpret a better life as meaning more money, friends, sex, booze, etc. God is not a slot machine, at least in my experience, and I would doubt the testimony of anyone who claimed that knowing God (they way they do, they might add) will make you rich, prosperous, healthy, and immune from misfortune.<P>In my personal experience, relationship with God has a very positive effect. It does not shield me from the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. Rather, it allows me to keep a level head in adversity; to look over my situation and decide which of the alligators trying to take a bite out of my butt needs to get whacked first. It allows me to recognize that just because I have few material possessions, large bills, a small paycheck, and a son I hardly get to see for one reason or another, this does not mean my life sucks. (Well, perhaps it <I>does</I>, but it's a level of vacuum I can endure and triumph over.) I have the strength and stubbornness to recognize that it's better for me to fight for what's right, in the right way, rather than just rolling over and giving up. It helps me recognize that the past is gone, the future will get here without my help, and what's happening right now is only important in proportion to my ability to affect the outcome.<P>It helps me to recognize that no matter what someone else believes, I am only responsible for <I>my</I> actions and beliefs, not theirs. I show others what I believe by what I do, how I do it, and what I say (and whether my words match my actions), not by following them around and ceaslessly prattling on about how "You're going to hell in a hand basket and God will save you if only you will believe like me so wadda-ya-say you no good filty dirty drunken heathen now won't you be blessed?" If they have questions, I'll answer to the best of my ability, but they are free to disagree in whole or in part.<P>I believe that God really does give a damn, but not that he's gonna grab you by the shirt collar and frogmarch you in the direction he wants you to go. It's not my job to do that to you either. Besides, the direction I think you ought to go might not be the best one for you. It could be the worst thing for you. Just because I believe in something doesn't mean I'm qualified to run your life. Of course, I expect the same courtesy from you, believer or not (to paraphrase Robert Ripley <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif">).<P>I think one thing that turns people off from Christianity (and other religions) is that people who want power over you will grab any tool that fits their hand and does the job. For some manipulators, that tool is religion; for others, politics; others, Boy Scout leader. Don't choose (or reject) God just because someone told you to.<P>Don't ridicule someone else's choice if they didn't choose the way you did. If you can't understand something they believe, just remember; they don't understand everything you believe either. As soon as you mock someone's beliefs (especially closely-held ones) you change from someone they will listen to and possibly understand into an enemy. Depending on what <I>they</I> believe, their reaction will vary from "I'll just ignore him" to "what can I do to utterly destroy this bastard?" In neither case will they sincerely be interested in anything you have to say.<P>Listen to one another. When you speak, weigh the words and ensure that what you say will be understood (and if they are not, that others are free to ask what you meant). Listen to others and attempt to understand. If you do not understand, ask questions. If you do understand and find the meaning offensive, try to figure out if the meaning was intended to be offensive. It speaks better of you to take no offense when someone mocks you than it does to take offense where none was intended. Allow others to believe what they will. If they change their minds, it will be due not to anything you said, but to what they decided in their own hearts and minds. You might have influenced their decision, but the decision is theirs alone to make, whether it pleases you or not.<P></Soapbox><P>--Baloo<P>------------------<BR><B>EXPERIENCE</B>, n. The wisdom that enables us to recognize as an undesirable old acquaintance the folly that we have already embraced.<BR>--Ambrose Bierce<BR><A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~Bob_Baloo/index.htm][B" TARGET=_blank>Come Hither and Yawn...[/B]</A><p>[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited January 02, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>LOA</b> <br /><small>Member # 49</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,2,21,34,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:34 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Wow, Baloo.... I don't think I ever could have stated any of that better... thank you.... that was very well said and very much needed.... I applaud you....<P>~LOA<P>------------------<BR>"The battle is raging inside my weary heart<BR>screaming for me to let it all go...<BR>My body is weak and I can't take the struggle anymore...<BR>the love that was here is filled up by anger and rage..." ~FOM<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TerraZ</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,2,22,21,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:21 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Baloo: That was very deep and wise too. It all basically comes down to the notion of respect, something that's not really present in our society (or any other for that matter). What you said could easily apply to any number of other topic like racism, sexism or homophobia. People are always forcing their ideas on others, be it for power, by conviction or any other reason.<P>Am I allowed to say what religion means to me (I'm not sure that's what you wanted us to say)? Also, keep in mind that this is MY opinion, so like Baloo said, don't take offence.<P>Basically, I used to think I was an atheist but my sister with some research said I was into agnosticism. In practice, it means I don't believe in any god, but I don't claim their isn't any. How I came to this? Well, religion has always been about faith and nothing people tell you can change that. For me, God has always been the guy I wouldn't care about except when something bad happens. When a relative dies, when I'm knee deep in the sh*t for whatever reason or when I'm feeling very lonely. In addition, I've always been very scientific. So I began to see that from my point of view, it was all hypocrisy and that I only turned to him in times of need. When I was praying, who's to say it wasn't me helping myself by reflecting?<P>I'm not saying there's no God or that I'm right, just that I don't believe. Which makes it all the worse for me if there really is a Vengeful God <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif">.<P>------------------<BR>-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...<BR>*Brannon Braga*<P>-Where were you when the brains were handed out?<BR>*Sonic the Hedgehog* <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>bryce</b> <br /><small>Member # 42</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,2,22,39,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 02, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:39 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Amen, Baloo<BR><P>------------------<BR>Peace on Earth<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dane Simri</b> <br /><small>Member # 272</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,3,10,5,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:05 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Preach on, Baloo!<P><BR>------------------<BR>Dane<P>"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Dane Simri (edited January 03, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>RW</b> <br /><small>Member # 27</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,3,13,35,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:35 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <BR>Um, no. I just don't like christianity or any other religion because it's based on wild theories taken as fact, even though they've been disproven by science, or simply cannot be proven. living your life according to a book, some rules in which are good, others are hopelessly outdated. Another thing I hate is that christians take these rules to be christian and not human. I could go on. Oh, and praying works because you fool yourself. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>RW</b> <br /><small>Member # 27</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,3,13,36,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:36 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <BR>And no, that was not an attack, christians. that was what they call an opinion. <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,3,17,20,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:20 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I agree with everything Baloo says in his first three paragraphs (not including the parenthetical one, as It's possible I consider Baloo an expert in life) <IMG SRC="http://flare.solareclipse.net/smile.gif"><P>With this exception. After I became a Deist, and was essentially "faithless" (??) (de-faithed? unfaithful? dis-faithulated? whatever), I relized I still believed those same things.<P>I still realize responsibility for my actions is mine and mine alone, that my situations, are largely my own, that respect is earned, and everything else Baloo said.. except I do it without a relationship of any kind... so I have to assume that that isn't the actual source of it.<P>Of course, I could be wrong. But I don't think so.<P>Am I worse off? From a soul-perspective, perhaps, I can't tell. <P>I'm less happy, but I think that's out of having no illusions rather than some creeping despair or "missing part."<P>I still believe Life has meaning. I still believe in Hope.<P>------------------<BR>Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson<P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Obese Penguin</b> <br /><small>Member # 271</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,3,17,33,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 03, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:33 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Bravo Baloo ! <P><P>------------------<BR>"Marge .. Do you have other men in this House ? .. Radioactive men?" <BR>~Homer "The Simpsons"<BR>http://www.geocities.com/travlyn2<P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jaresh Inyo</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,2,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:27 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> First of Two, I respect you. I really do. I tend to agree with you on most issues, and I feel that you've always handled yourself well, even in arguments where I didn't agree with you. I can remember a number of occassions where I got a laugh out of things you said.<P>The paragraph you just wrote is a good example of what I was talking about. One thing I don't understand, however, is your seeming obsession with discrediting my religion. Most of the Christians here would probably consider me to be a fence-walker, because I don't totally get behind the concept of the Church, but I really don't care about that. If people here are gay, I except that. It's not a choice I'd make, but it's not my choice to make. I get more worked up about politics than I do religion.<P>But why do you feel such compulsion to attack Christianity? To discredit it, and bring up every conceivable example of when terrible things were done in our name? We've done a lot of bad things, but what exactly is the cause of your hatred for us? And are we really any worse than the other major religions?<P>I'm not trying to attack you on this one, but I'm interested. Respond here or in an email (Matt1701_E@hotmail.com) if you'd like.<P>------------------<BR>"I promise you, Wilma, that not one man on this force will rest until the criminal scum that did this are behind bars. Now let's go get a bite to eat." - Frank Drebbin, Detective Lieutenant in Police Squad <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jaresh Inyo</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,2,27,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:27 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> First of Two, I respect you. I really do. I tend to agree with you on most issues, and I feel that you've always handled yourself well, even in arguments where I didn't agree with you. I can remember a number of occassions where I got a laugh out of things you said.<P>The paragraph you just wrote is a good example of what I was talking about. One thing I don't understand, however, is your seeming obsession with discrediting my religion. Most of the Christians here would probably consider me to be a fence-walker, because I don't totally get behind the concept of the Church, but I really don't care about that. If people here are gay, I except that. It's not a choice I'd make, but it's not my choice to make. I get more worked up about politics than I do religion.<P>But why do you feel such compulsion to attack Christianity? To discredit it, and bring up every conceivable example of when terrible things were done in our name? We've done a lot of bad things, but what exactly is the cause of your hatred for us? And are we really any worse than the other major religions?<P>I'm not trying to attack you on this one, but I'm interested. Respond here or in an email (Matt1701_E@hotmail.com) if you'd like.<P>------------------<BR>"I promise you, Wilma, that not one man on this force will rest until the criminal scum that did this are behind bars. Now let's go get a bite to eat." - Frank Drebbin, Detective Lieutenant in Police Squad <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>TerraZ</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,4,2,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:02 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Well, I can't talk for First of Two, but concerning the attack on Christianism, maybe it's because that's the closest and most popular religion around here (US, Canada and others), making it easier to find example of misuse. I supposed if I lived in Europe I'd probably attack the way extremists use Islam to murder people. Well, that's what I think. What we remember of a religion is always the few fanatics that are obsessed with it rather than the population in general.<P>For example, when I went to Ogunquit last summer, two things struck me:<P>-There was a church channel, complete with mass exorcism, celebration and even ads for a brochure to each us how we're posessed by the Devil if we don't believe in God.<P>-A singing preacher which was invited on the Hotel ground who sang such songs as "There's a miracle in the making" and "God is good... All the way".<P>I found it very funny and if I were to judge american christians by that, you'd all be pretty much fanatics.<BR><P>------------------<BR>-If you ask me, I think continuity is highly overrated...<BR>*Brannon Braga*<P>-Where were you when the brains were handed out?<BR>*Sonic the Hedgehog* <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>seanr</b> <br /><small>Member # 277</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,10,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:47 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I think that religion and the idea of God is enssentially a placebo. Those who believe do benefit from it, sometimes in a big way, but I don't believe that there actually is a god out there making their lives better because they believe in him. What makes the difference is the sense of safety that believers have, the idea that as long as they do good in life, there will always be someone there to care for them and love them.<P>I don't think that is limited to christians, either. Although I consider myself an atheist, I am a member of the Unitarian church. Rather than being unified by religious beliefs, they are united by common philosophical principles. Cheif among those principles is the idea that all religions are equally valid. They believe that everyone has a right to believe in whatever they choose, and, more importantly, that all religions have similar positive (and negative) effects on society. I think a jew or a muslim would have the same sense of safety and peace that a christian believer has, and for exactly the same reasons.<P>Another interesting point, from a purely humanitarian viewpoint, is that all religion has the effect of bringing ordered society into the chaos that is human life. Religion (in any form) is the best tool we have for promoting morals and values. The belief that someone will be their to take care of you before and after death if you treat those around you well is an extremely powerfull motivator.<P>On a personal basis, religion is extremely benificial, both to the person in question and those around them. However, a problem often arises when religion and politics are mixed and when large groups of people get involved. When people believe that they have the only true religion (as many religions teach), they look down on other religions. Somehow the moral teachings are overlooked when dealing with people of other religions. That surely doesn't benefit anyone and is the one major fault I have found in organised religion.<P>------------------<BR>Sean Robertson<BR> <A HREF="mailto:webolutionary@webolutionary.com">webolutionary@webolutionary.com</A> <P><A HREF="http://www.webolutionary.com" TARGET=_blank>WEBolutionary Consulting Services</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.mania-online.com" TARGET=_blank>Mania-Online</A> <P>"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"<BR> <I>- Wordsworth</I><P>"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"<BR> <I>- Dr Evil</I><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,10,49,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:49 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Jaresh: That's a really good question.<P>You misinterpret some of what I say, however.<P>I don't hate Christianity. I don't hate Christians. Most of you are just fine, in my estimation, despite the fact that I personally feel you're making a mistake in what you believe. I gather that you, personally, have essentially the same feelings about people like me, and I'm okay with that.<P>I have some problems with the concept of the being you believe in, but that's between me and Him, assuming He exists.<P>I hate the blathering kind of prosletyzing Baloo also disagrees with and I still hear so much of. I hate the holier-than-thou aspect, when people begin a political statement with "as a CHRISTIAN..." implying that that somehow makes them BETTER than the rest of us. I hate the revisionist history. I hate persecution in the name of protecting some mythical idea of "values" when half the people loudly proclaiming said values are secretly violating them. I hate the attempt to control the flow of information, and the implied insult, that people are to stupid to make decisions for themselves. I hate the idea that decisions that affect the real world are being made on the basis of belief in a theoretical entity that, to me, doesn't seem particularly concerned with the "real" world.<P>Why do I make the repeated examples of past atrocities?<BR>Why do the Jews insist we remember the Holocaust?<P>Simply to remind you of what you're capable of. <BR>To remind you that you did this once. <BR>To remind you that some of you would like nothing better than to do it AGAIN, and that you'd better look to the wolves in your fold first before you worry about the guy outside the fence.<P>I point out problems so that perhaps, PERHAPS some of you will begin to ask the same questions I did (and who knows, maybe you'll find better answers), because an unexamined faith is not worth having.<P>------------------<BR>Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson<P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>seanr</b> <br /><small>Member # 277</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,4,10,50,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 04, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">10:50 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Before anyone asks (they always do), I base my decisions about what is right and wrong on respect for other people. I treat people with respect and dignity (except in very rare cases when a person has earned great disrespect).<P>------------------<BR>Sean Robertson<BR> <A HREF="mailto:webolutionary@webolutionary.com">webolutionary@webolutionary.com</A> <P><A HREF="http://www.webolutionary.com" TARGET=_blank>WEBolutionary Consulting Services</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.mania-online.com" TARGET=_blank>Mania-Online</A> <P>"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"<BR> <I>- Wordsworth</I><P>"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"<BR> <I>- Dr Evil</I><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Jaresh Inyo</b> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,1,56,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">01:56 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I understand what you're saying completely. Well put. Especially that piece about the Holocaust. I can't really think of anything to say to that, except that looking back on what I said and what you said, you're right. The example is a good one.<P>But, just as an example, let's say we were to meet somewhere. We discuss the political views we seem to share. Upon our second meeting, I mention my religious beliefs. How would your perceptions of me change?<BR><P>------------------<BR>"I promise you, Wilma, that not one man on this force will rest until the criminal scum that did this are behind bars. Now let's go get a bite to eat." - Frank Drebbin, Detective Lieutenant in Police Squad <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dane Simri</b> <br /><small>Member # 272</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,4,14,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">04:14 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> seanr: You make several great points. But I take exception to this statement: "What makes the difference is the sense of safety that believers have, the idea that as long as they do good in life, there will always be someone there to care for them and love them."<P>The whole point of Christianity is that, no matter how much good you do in life, it cannot outweigh the bad. Being perfectly good, God cannot stand the presence of badness, no matter how much human good is applied against it. It's like a credit card debt that you can never pay off. Christ pays the debt for you.<P>The comfort I find in my faith is that, to modify your words slightly, "no matter how much good OR BAD I do in life, there will always be someone there to care for me and love me." I know that no matter how many bad things I do today, God won't love me any less; no matter how little I deserve his love, he'll never stop giving it to me. Actually, that's a pretty good definition of what Christians mean when they talk about "grace."<P>Once again, I'm not trying to convert anyone or belittle anyone's belief system. I'm just trying to correct misinformation about MY belief system when it pops up.<P>------------------<BR>Dane<P>"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7<BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Harry</b> <br /><small>Member # 265</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,5,19,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">05:19 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Have you ever read any book of Zecharia Sitchin or Alan Alford. They say that the gods were actually extraterrestrial beings. And you know what the scary part is, the theory explains everything and is comletely water-proof (and millenium proof)! From the piramids to the Brazilian cocaine found in Eqyptian mummies!<P>(Actually, in Star Trek they even found the Common Ancestor of all humanoids.)<P>------------------<BR>So small,<BR>So innocent, so young, So delicately done<BR>Grown up in your poison.<P>"Little Baby Swastikkka"<BR>-Skunk Anansie <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,9,29,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">09:29 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Dane, you said: "Being perfectly good, God cannot stand the presence of badness..."<P>I assume you mean in his PHYSICAL presence, since there seems to be an awful lot of "badness" around this planet, and in "Hell," and that seems to be just fine by Him.<P>Jaresh: Honestly? Yes, it would affect my impressions, although probably not enough to change them. Although I'll admit freely to being a bit prejudiced in that area, my opinion of a person's character and intelligence does not depend on the religion they follow (except "Satanism." Satanism is shallow and stupid. The 'hedonistic' kind even moreso, for calling itself 'satanism.')<P>You would need to assure me that your political beliefs sprang from your reasoned considerations, rather than being simply a by-product of your religious beliefs, as they are to so many. Being who I am, I could never accept the "Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it" mindset.<P><BR>------------------<BR>Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 05, 2000).] <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>seanr</b> <br /><small>Member # 277</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,14,55,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">02:55 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The ironic thing is that most of it probably wasn't even spoken by jesus. So much of the bible came from stories that were passed down through the generations before finally being written down that we have no way to know what is real and what is mere embelishment or human error.<P>------------------<BR>Sean Robertson<BR> <A HREF="mailto:webolutionary@webolutionary.com">webolutionary@webolutionary.com</A> <P><A HREF="http://www.webolutionary.com" TARGET=_blank>WEBolutionary Consulting Services</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.mania-online.com" TARGET=_blank>Mania-Online</A> <P>"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"<BR> <I>- Wordsworth</I><P>"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"<BR> <I>- Dr Evil</I><P> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#A3B9CC"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>First of Two</b> <br /><small>Member # 16</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,5,15,47,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 05, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">03:47 PM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Not to mention the high likelihood that the Gospels themselves were rewritten and heavily edited in the three hundred years leading up to, and during, Nicea and the other Councils which decided just what was to go in to the 'final' Bible version.<P>In fact, the now-defunct Apollonius page suggested that there was a great deal of evidence that the gospels were INTENSIVELY rewritten for Nicea in order to appease Constantine.<P>------------------<BR>Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson<P><BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#E5EAEF"> <td valign="top" width="18%"> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <b>Dane Simri</b> <br /><small>Member # 272</small> </font></td> <td width="82%"> <font size="2" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> <img src="https://flare.solareclipse.net/posticon.gif" border="0" alt=" - " /> posted <script language="JavaScript1.3" type="text/javascript"> document.write(timestamp(new Date(2000,0,6,6,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); </script><noscript><span class="dateformat-0">January 06, 2000</span> <span class="timeformat-0">06:10 AM</span></noscript><hr /> </font> <font size="3" face="Trebuchet MS, Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> First of Two...<P>"I assume you mean in his PHYSICAL presence, since there seems to be an awful lot of 'badness' around this planet, and in 'Hell,' and that seems to be just fine by Him."<P>Actually, I meant he can't stand it PERIOD. But he allows it to exist because He is patient with people and wants them to change their lives ("repent"). If you're really interested in the facts behind this, grab a Bible and read Second Peter 3:3-13. I'll post it if anyone's interested, but the gist of it is that God has promised to destroy the evil in the world, but according to HIS timetable, not ours. He's restraining himself because he loves people; he holds back the End because he doesn't want anyone lost. He's giving everyone the time and space to change. When the End does come, it will be unannounced, a complete surprise to everyone, and everything we know as "physical reality" will be changed, made perfect. Therefore, Peter concludes, we should live good lives today, based upon the saving grace of God in Jesus.<P>You also said, "Being who I am, I could never accept the 'Jesus said it, I believe it, that settles it' mindset." ME EITHER! So I've spent the last twelve years putting the Bible to the test in my life. In every instance, God has lived up to his promises, in my experience.<P>I think I covered my thoughts on the issue of the Bible's factality in the other thread, so all I'll say here is that we can't prove our opinions, so it comes down to a faith decision -- which scholars do you believe? If anyone wants to debate the factual integrity of the Bible, perhaps a new thread would be the appropriate place?<P>Thanks again for reading, all!<P>------------------<BR>Dane<P>"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7<BR> <br /> </font> </td></tr> </table></td></tr></table> <br /> <br />
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