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"Okay, so I'm not "SANE" so to speak, but uh... I'm the lovable kind of psycho"
http://solareclipse.net/
I think the only big problem with the UN is the permanent seats on the security council. Let the US, UK, French (?) Russians and Chinese stand for election like everyone else. If they're so great as they think they are they'll be elected by the members. If they're not, well, get 'em off the security council.
I have a feeling the aforementioned countries would have a bit of a problem with giving up this power though. Hows about we threaten them into it with airstrikes?
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"Breen. Try saying it. Bre-een. Rolls nicely off the tongue, doesn't it?"
[This message was edited by The_Tom on March 31, 1999.]
You can all sit around and Serb-bash until you get your precious little countries bombed to hell.
If people here don't respect international law, fine. You all bow to this "President" who tries to define agressor like he does sexual relations. Most of you don't even know anything more than what Adolf Clinton tells you(shown by your lack of knowledge regarding WWI, WWII, the Domino Theory, and the KLA). Hence, I have no point bashing my head into a wall with you brainwashed Americans (and I use that term to include most of you, since you're assimilated Americans who just don't like the name). So, that pretty much ends my run on these forums(shame I can't go out in the kind of blaze I did on the TrekCentral ones). This profile is soon to be deleted.
Any final words? Well, yes. This outpouring of bile from brainwashed Americans has brought back my sense of _Slavic_ pride. You'll all soon be sorry that I am just one of hundreds of millions.
A little something to think about: the Ukraine just voted to AGAIN become a nuclear power.
Now, in the words of my prophetic quote from the Femmes...
*bows*
Good night.
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"America will live to see the day it regrets the day it bombed Kosovo"
Boris Yeltsin
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I drink therefore I am.
-Descartes
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Goodnight my love...the brightest star in my sky...
Goodnight...you have been my sky, my sun and my moon...
The phrase "Pre-emptive strike" comes to mind.
It's okay, guys, he obviously doesn't know more than whatever his people have been feeding him, either. "Brainwashed?" Talk about the pot and the friggin' kettle...
I'm not surprised. Go ahead, pick up your ball and go home. You were losing anyway.
Didn't even bother to try to respond to my last couple of missives on the previous thread.. which is pretty much what I expected. Noone likes to see their logic torn to ribbons like that.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Re: Slobodan Milosevic- This guy is probably the real cause of the problems in the Balkans. The real reason for all this conflict is simple: he wants a unified Serbia by limiting the rights of all other ethnic groups (or doing things the easy way, as we have just seen).
Re: Kosovo- This region has many of Serbia's historical artifacts. In other words, it is Serbia's Jerusalem. But that does not justify the killing done by the Serb armies. And I don't think anyone will sit by as one country kills some people it doesn't want there for the sake of making a Serb state.
Re: KLA- The Serbs say that the KLA are the real terrorists, and if anyone should be bombed, it should be them. As someone said, the KLA does not escape without blame either, as some attacks went way beyond Self-defense.
Re: Bombing Campaign- With all the ethnic cleansing going on right now, we may be justified to start the bombing campaigns, but they must be directed against Milosevic, not the Serbs.
Re: U.S. Involvement- I really can't say for sure why the the U.S. is an integral part of this campaign. Maybe the U.S. really has a concern. Maybe the U.S. really wants to prevent ethnic Cleansing. Maybe Clinton has another scandal brewing and is simply cooking up a diversion.
Re: NATO involvement- Same reasons as above, just remove the Clinton scandal part.
Re: Brainwashing- I don't buy any of it. There are a lot of people who think that this conflict is useless. And there are a lot of people who said that if something isn't done, then a lot of poor people will die. Let me ask this question for all Serb supporters out there: if we simply packed our bags and go home, what will happen to the Albanians? And how would you feel if they died a la the Jews in WWII?
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I can resist anything.......
Except Temptation
Except this: the bombing campaign is just the first step. Ground troops (and lost of them, NATO now estimates it will need about 200,000) are the next step, and the reason is simple. Despite all of the hype given to air power, it has failed to stop the humanitarian problems in Kosovo and it has failed to stop Milosevic. It has also failed to completely wipe out Serb air defences.
This so called phase 2 of the air campaign, in which NATO planes must fly lower and slower in order to hit smaller targets like troop columns, is not only far more dangerous to the pilots and planes, its much more difficult to hit much of anything. Tanks and troop carriers can be hit, but the troops themselves that are comitting the (alleged) atrocities are spread out in villages and over the country side. It is now becoming generally recognized (although many politicians are still denying) that only ground troops will ultimately solve the problem if Milosevic refuses to back down. And so, send in the marines.
The result is a hostile ground invasion of a sovereign country, one that is not sanctioned by the UN. And yet there is no real plan (no public one anyway) as to what to do with this situation. Create an independent Kosovo? Forcibly remove Milosevic from power? I think NATO gambled that Milosevic would back down, and they gambled wrong. And now they are stuck in a situation that can only get more unstable, without a clear direction to follow.
Personally, I am in favour of the bombing, but what I am not in favour of is setting a major international precedent for the future without having a clear idea of what you intend to do or what you ultimately want to accomplish. Saying you want to save lives is fine and nice, but in these situations we need something more specific. NATO may have it, I hope they do, but they're not telling anyone (possibly for political reasons).
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"Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you."
-Commander Riker, USS Enterprise
I just don't get it. You're going to leave here just because of a difference of opinion? If I have an argument with someone, I don't just run home and decide never to see or speak to that person again. You have your opinion, and are entitled to it, as all of us are. I, and many others, are of the opinion you are wrong. That is also an opinion people are entitled to. Giving up like that is simple cowardice. What would Patton have to say about cowardice? But, if you wish to leave, that's your choice.
As for being a brainwashed American, I think not. But I would much rather be brainwashed, and have moral sensibility, than be unbrainwashed, and see genocide as something that is perfectly fine. And if you haven't gotten the jist of what most of us are trying to say, here it is in plain English.
Genocide is wrong. And if it means violating International Law to prevent it, then International Law be damned. We are saying to the world the Holocaust will not happen again. And what does abdicating ethnic cleansing say about you?
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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
[This message was edited by Warped1701 on March 31, 1999.]
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"Bickering is pointless." - Spock, Miri
"I'm real easy to get along with most of the time, but I don't like bullies, and I don't like threats." - Janeway, State of Flux
2)Genocide is a thing to be stopped at virtually all costs. (Reverse genocide being the exception - Picard knew this.)
Suggested:
1) Milo seems to be a lot of the problem. His agenda appears to be to remain on top, no matter what. Dangerous thing in a pseudodictator. In anyone, really. He gives the orders, he should be a target. Just as our military chiefs would expect to be targeted in the event of war.
2) Ground troops from the European NATO countries should go in, given air cover by US planes. It won't be pretty, but it looks like it's the only way to effectively counter Milo's troops in the field. I don't like the idea any more than you do.
3) The Russia problem: Russia should be gently reminded where most of its monetary support, etc comes from. Where its grain came from, even during the Cold War. Whose buying its space equipment to use in the ESA Mars Express program, etc. Whose paying them lots to build new stuff for the Space Station. It's not an insurmountable problem. Serbia may be an "ally," but what have they done for Russia lately? If it were in Russia's interest, they'd turn their backs on Serbia, too.
4) Ukraine's going to be a nuclear power again? Okay. Who are they afraid of, Us? Germany? Russia? It's probably too soon to invite THEM to join NATO.. Russia wouldn't like that, either. But perhaps the big grainbox should be considered by the EU? It always helps to have a friendly breadbasket. Would cut down considerably on the threat (admittedly, I don't know the politics behind these ideas.)
Gee, I don't miss the flames at all.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
The countries in NATO are being threatened; as a member of NATO we have an obligation to protect them. That is what NATO is about; member's security.
Anyone hear the thing about concentration camps springing up?
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Wheeelersburg Correctional Facility
Inmate #05301999
First....your logic ain't THAT powerful.
Anyway - End point...agree to disagree?
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I drink therefore I am.
-Descartes
When you express a viewpoint that runs contrary to the majority, or even to one specific opponent, you've got to expect some negative feedback from the folks who are listening. You can deal with this feedback in three ways:
You can avoid it by remaining silent - thus running the risk of being right, but unheard, but also avoiding conflict. (For instance, I don't start in on how much of a @#$% St. Cyril of Alexandria was when I'm visiting my gf's church.)
You can defend your argument with rational statements, countering your opponents' points with your own, better points. This is good for the brain, and the worst thing that happens (assuming both sides stay rational) is that you agree to disagree, or somebody changes their mind.
The third way is to get mad, resort to namecalling (like "brainwashed Americans" for starters), make vague threats (like "you'll all soon be sorry") or specific threats or become violent (thusly losing the argumentby showing you're uncivilized), or pick up your ball and go home (thus conceding defeat.)
I admit my logic's not all-powerful, but in the various offline debates I've participated in, I'm 13-0-1. (of course, more than half of these have been against Fundies, which is kind of like swatting a fly with a Buick)
Oh, I forgot. Okay, it's agreed. We disagree. Truce. You won't hear any more from me on the subject.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
[This message was edited by First of Two on April 03, 1999.]
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I drink therefore I am.
-Descartes
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The real problem with the United States of America is that is was founded by Europeans, Asians, and Africans.
No, don't answer that.
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If Galileo had lied to save his life, would America, or the West, or Space have been discovered?
The United States is in Kosovo simply because it believes that it's the best darned country in the world and should go help out and protect all the other countries in the world.
Also:
1. Because this, eventually, threatens us
2. Because this helps out foriegn PR (in some twisted way)
3. Because inevitably, if we help out now, when the war is over we'll get something out of it in the final treaty. And don't think we aren't thinking about it.
4. Clinton has to do SOMETHING to show that he's not a complete ass. I mean, what ELSE was he doing in the oval office all that time? *Grin*
Is it wrong? ... Is it right? .....
It would seem we're in some sort of twisted "Antigone and Creon" situation. I certainly hope someone doesn't end up hanging themselves.
I don't know if it's wrong, or if it's right. I think wrong and right is really relative.
Lastly, it would seem that where this started as a nice friendly political argument (and I enjoy reading those) it turned into some sort of sick nationalist display and a contest on who could toot America's horn the loudest. *frowns* ... I love my country and there isn't anywhere I'd rather be ... but the war in Kosovo goes way beyond wether or not the USA has bigger guns (what is it with that preoccupation with size, anyway?).
It addresses the simple fact that Muslims are considered to be lesser people than the other citizens in that country.
Wanna know why?
Because they are more educated, therefore have more jobs, and therefore are richer. They deserve and earned these things. I personally don't think they got them by supressing thier Serbian neighbors (and i'm not saying wether they did or didn't .. this is merely my opinion and based on what I know, wich may NOT be fact).
This sounds, to me, alot like the problem with the Jewish people and the holocaust.
Everybody needs a scapegoat, and Milosevic found the Muslims as very convenient to use as impetus for his ultimate goal. He knew that by using this strategy, his people would follow him.
The scary thing about this is .... there are people in Serbia who actually believe every word he says.
Gaventa's three faces of power: A controls B, A ignores B, A controls B's mind. Ask yourself who controls the information, and then ask yourself if that's a reliable source.
No, it's not the Serbian's fault they think this way. They've been brought up to think this way. It's not the german's fault that they started to believe Hitler, either. I mean, isn't it very easy to beleive the person who is telling you everything you want to hear?
However ... It's Genocide. That's the whole point. People are killing other people because they call their God a different name. If the US started advocating this, who's to say the Buddhists aren't next? If someone, tomorrow, started deciding that all the catholic people deserved to die because of lent, would we feel the same way about this?
ACK .. I seem to have inadvertantly chosen a side.
Anyways, i'm going to get my Political Science butt out of this conversation now.... I try to avoid political discussions. *LOL*
And I want a lolly, too! (even if I couldn't find answers to all those questions)
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If Galileo had lied to save his life, would America, or the West, or Space have been discovered?
And if Columbus had never set sail, would the Earth still be flat?
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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
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I drink therefore I am.
-Descartes
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If Galileo had lied to save his life, would America, or the West, or Space have been discovered?
And if Columbus had never set sail, would the Earth still be flat?
http://www.serbia-info.com/
It's a news site (presumably from Serbia, though I'm not sure) that a friend of mine told me about, so I went and had a look. I don't know who runs the site (Serbian news probably) but I didn't find any mention of what's happening in Kosovo, though plenty of references to "NATO criminals". An interesting look at another perspective, though one made up of a lot of propaganda, I wouldn't recommend believing all of what you read when you look here (though a lot of the information seems to be corroborated by western media).
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"Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you."
-Commander Riker, USS Enterprise
[This message was edited by Chimaera on April 04, 1999.]
Partly it's because this argument takes place time and again in this forum (and it's various incarnations) and although very much is said, very little can be done about whatever sparked the flame by those in the discussion.
Partly it's because as a military member, I am prohibited by regulation from expressing an opinion about certain topics that might be construed as:
Hence, I tend to keep my mouth shut.
I generally do not gripe about things I have no personal power over, except for comedic effect. Somehow, genocide and international calls-to-arms do not strike me as a good source for humorous material.
Too bad about DT. Someday he may realize that if someone disagrees with him, that is not the same as calling him a moron. I disagree with a lot of my friends. It's only when they disagree in an intentionally disagreeable manner that I begin to consider dropping them off the list.
Carry on. At least I can enjoy the debate vicariously.
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The Subatomic Particles(Electrons, Protons, etc.) Comprising This Product Are Exactly the Same in Every Measurable Respect as Those Used in the Products of Other Manufacturers, and No Claim to the Contrary May Legitimately Be Expressed or Implied.
[This message was edited by Baloo on April 04, 1999.]
I don't think we should bash him if he's not there to defend himself.
And thanks for the Lolly. *takes it*
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If Galileo had lied to save his life, would America, or the West, or Space have been discovered?
And if Columbus had never set sail, would the Earth still be flat?
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"We choose to do this and more. Not because it is easy, but because it is hard."
-- John F. Kennedy
I'd tell him that too, but he apparently isn't around to hear it.
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"And though I once prefered a human being's company, they pale before the monolith that towers over me."
--
They Might Be Giants
I think the air strikes are overall a good thing. Regardless of ulterior motives or anything else, the fact of the matter is that people are being slaughtered and I for one say that *every* other country outside of Yugoslavia should be doing everything in their power to stop it. Internal bickering between civillians is one thing, and intervention wouldn't be a prudent move. But when someone sends a legitimate army for the purpose of rounding up and killing men and boys of one ethnic group, they deserve to die. As to how to go about the stopping of the genocide... the air strikes are an important part, and I would be very hesitant to send in ground troops. I have a fair amount of confidence in the Apache helicopter, and if we can eliminate a sizable portion of the actual perpetrators, then I am for it. For that matter, I think its time to send a Tomahawk right up Milosonovabitch's ass.
The thing that makes me the maddest in this thing is the anti-Clinton business. Now, I don't love the man, but singling him out from all of NATO as the man to blame is rediculous. If I see on more shot on CNN of the guys with the "Clinton is a Nazi" sign, I'm gonna puke. Where are the "Blair is a Nazi" signs? Where are the "Schroeder is a Nazi" signs? And perhaps most importantly, where are the "Solana is a Nazi" signs? This is NATO's doing, and just because the U.S. plays a major role in it doesn't mean that Bill Clinton is a fascist bent on conquering the Balkans.
Speaking of watching CNN, I just love those Pentagon briefings. Ken Bacon cracks me up... sad, but true. If only all government spokespeople had such harsh sarcasm when dealing with the absolute stupidity of the press. Don't reporters generally reseach a topic before going to these press conferences? You couldn't tell by listening to the questions they ask...
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-=Ryan McReynolds=-