Much in the same manner that, given enough time and access to proper deprogramming techniques, someone can get you to believe that:
The Earth is Flat
Tobacco is good for you
Fatty foods you previously loved now make you violently ill.
The President is an extraterrestrial.
YOU are an extraterrestrial
Black is white
Etc.
And though it isn't completely necessary, it helps, of course, when you are already culturally programmed by your religion and upbringing to believe that Homosexuality is somehow evil, that a Creator-being frowns upon it (this despite there being more and more evidence that it occurs naturally, even in animals), and therefore possess a deep-seated desire/neuroses to rid yourself of it.
:P
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Atheism is natural, Christianity is a lifestyle choice.
Or, that's my opinion!
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Wheeelersburg Correctional Facility
Inmate #05301999
Re: All this Christianity bashing going on.
I'm not a religious person by any means, but this is sooner or later gonna offend someone here who DOES have a strong religious faith. Can we give it a rest, people?
Returning to the subject matter of this thread:
I doubt you need to condemn the "curing" of gays in a forum such as this. I doubt anyone here wouldn't share your disgust at this intolerant attitude espoused by some whackos with over-expanded egos.
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"Is there anyone there with a gun?"
- On the Hour
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"Sometimes you get the bear, and sometimes the bear gets you."
-Commander Riker, USS Enterprise
And bryce, if you think Atheism = Paganism, you need a better dictionary.
Incidentally, I'm not an Atheist, I'm a Deist, but for purposes of this and the other religious discussions, it's close enough.
And actually, Christianity, like all religions, is learned and therefore not "natural." We are not born believing in a God. We are taught to. If anything, we are born classically agnostic. "I don't know" what causes the world and what makes things happen.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Anyone who wants to flame these guys in the name of Christ needs to refrain from it and go pray about the situation.
And no one is born not believing in God either.
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
[This message was edited by bryce on April 13, 1999.]
[This message was edited by bryce on April 13, 1999.]
How sad for you.
_I_, on the other hand, don't do it because it's a despicable, cowardly, underhanded way of conducting onesself, and is tantamount to shooting the guy you just lost an argument with, thereby proving he was right. My Personal, self-derived, non-religious system of conduct tells me that.
And besides, I don't WANT to. It's only words on a computer screen. Big whoop. If you want to nuke me for expressing my beliefs, go right ahead and violate everything you CLAIM to respect, and prove the Christian-Bashers are right.
And I respectfully disagree, we are all born not believing in God. This is OPPOSED to denying God, saying that "There is no God." One has to be able to formulate a concept before one can believe in it or not. Newborns cannot form concepts such as that, the concepts must be taught to them. You cannot believe or disbelieve that which you cannot even comprehend. If you raise a child in an environment wherein there is no religious context at all, that child will never come to you asking about God. They will exist without the concept. It is only after they are exposed to the concept that they will accept or reject it.
Nowadays, since most people's exposure and indoctrination begins at a very early age, when they are incapable of making their own value judgements, and are simply TOLD "how things are" , they accept that without (much) question.
I suppose it depends on where you place the emphasis on "not." we are born not believing that 2+2=4, either. Although the concept of "2+2=4" is possibly something we CAN learn on our own.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Unfortunately, there are Christians who use their religion to justify killing homosexuals, abortion doctors, and who ever else they deem to be 'evil'.
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Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
[This message was edited by bryce on April 13, 1999.]
See we believe that it is possible for Satan to control ppl since even birth and therefore they can be 'cured.' And in that sense they can be born with it, too.
Demons can exist in any way; even as genes.
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
Uh.....Would you mind explaining to us ...HOW?
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Jeff Raven - Having more fun than any human being should be allowed to have
And I've never heard of anyone who claims to have clear memory of their birth before.. except one guy I met in college.. but he also claimed to have made love in the back of an in-flight SR-71 Blackbird.
All the studies I've ever seen point to clear memory before the age of 3 or 4 as virtually impossible.
I personally can't remember anything clearly that happened before I was 4. My earliest CERTAIN memory (that is, I know when it took place in the chronology of uncertain memories from that time) occurred two months before I turned 5.
And if Satan can "control" people from birth, that pretty much shoots great gaping holes in the "free will" defense against the Argument from Evil (that defense that says "evil is allowed so that we have a choice") doesn't it?
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*I only SEEM Normal*
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
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There are people who one loves immediatly and forever. Just to know that you exist in the same world together is sufficient. Till I loved, I never lived - enough.
We (all of us) still have free will! We have the free will to seek out help or not to, with anything that bothers us. The ppl Jesus removed Demons from (most of them) had the free will whether or not to ask for his help.
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
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*I only SEEM Normal*
1.) Don't you think it's a tad presumptuous to say that "we" are Christians, which makes it seem as though you are claiming to speak for ALL Christians?
2.) Sorry if I bugged you, Jubes.
3.) I don't believe in your type of God, and now you want me to accept Demons, too?
4.) There's an inherent contradiction in saying that someone "controlled" has "free will." That's what I meant. The same contradiction occurs when you try to explain angelic (or demonic) interference in events on Earth, both are violations of "free will." as is "prophecy", which is saying that something MUST happen, whether or not anybody wills it.
Here's a forinstance.. suppose I'm the "Antichrist." By the Book, I'm supposed to be Human. Therefore, I have free will. and yet, by the same Book, I MUST do these specific things to bring about Armageddon. Therefore I cannot have free will. This creates a huge paradox.
(btw, if I WERE the Antichrist, - and as far as I know, I'm NOT - I would think that not doing ANY of the things I'm supposed to do would be the BEST way to thwart God's plans..) 
The rest of you can mull that over. I'm going to bed for real this time.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
-gotta go to bed soon too-
I meant 'we' as in 'we, christians,' not we, all ppl here on Earth.
We are 'controlled' by a side (good vs. evil- God vs. Satan). We have the freewill to choose which side to be on, Although going from the control of Satan is harder than leaving God for Satan.
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Anyone remember how they felt the day after Rich Mullins died?
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There are people who one loves immediatly and forever. Just to know that you exist in the same world together is sufficient. Till I loved, I never lived - enough.
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"I have come to the conclusion that one man is called a disgrace, that two are called a law firm, and that three on the law become a congress! And by God I have had this Congress!"
--John Adams, "1776"
Do NOT click on the following link if you are easily offended in any way, or have a low tolerance for humor that many would describe as crude. The following link, while I consider it uproariously funny, could be viewed as pure demon-inspired evil. This is from The Onion, if that helps describe the possible nature of the piece. The headline is rather descriptive too.
Church Group Offers Homosexual New Life In Closet
Remember, it's not for kids.
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"And though I once prefered a human being's company, they pale before the monolith that towers over me."
--
They Might Be Giants
To not beleive in the mere exsistence of him means that he has won(satan) cause he can work in hidding withno one to no what is real happening.
Oh and the idea that some people are born being controlled by evil and some to good is laughable.
It sounds almost like what the church was preaching in the middle ages. I forgot what church taught this but it was after the 72 decrees by Luther. This seperate christian church preached that even before u are born, those who will go to heaven have already been predetermined by the falling sparks of good that fall to the earth and inhabit some of the choosen.
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I did'nt do it.
*L*
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There are people who one loves immediatly and forever. Just to know that you exist in the same world together is sufficient. Till I loved, I never lived - enough.
*assuming we accept the existence of God, the Devil, etc.*
Since "God" is maker and shaper and ruler of all the Universe(s), omnipotent, omniscient and undefeatable, any thing that exists must exist according to His will. Since, quite easily, "god" could obliterate anything He desired to rid the universe of. (Part of the perks of being all-powerful)
Therefore, all things Evil MUST exist in accordance with "God"'s will, including His Adversary, especially since "God" created "the Devil" in its entirety. (yes, I know, the Bible says iniquity was "found" in Lucifer... do you think it grew there by itself, or that Licifer Created it? the potential MUST have always been there, so we know who placed it there.)
An omnipresent "Subtle Spirit" would still be capable of preventing all forms of evil, so we must reject that argument.
"Free will" does not apply to non-choice-based suffering such as that caused by birth defects, disease, and natural disasters, so we must reject that argument as well.
In fact, the only reasonable answer to the Problem of Evil is if we accept a Duality of "God," that is, a God which is both Good and Evil in one (a conclusion actually supported by some scraps of scripture which I unfortunately do not have handy). This is also the only adequate explanation for a God who occasionally does unpleasant things like incite His followers to commit genocide, intentionally confuse people, and deliberately and repeatedly "harden pharoah's heart" after the guy had already agreed to let the Israelites go.
But then, such a God wouldn't NEED a separate Devil, would He?
Of course, Satan's OT function as man's fault-finder is clearly different from the picture in which he is painted today, but that's generally widely ignored.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
But, then, if "God" does exist, I wish he would show up and prove it.
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http://frankg.dgne.com/
Megatron: "Waspinator, salvage Inferno."
Waspinator: "Inferno blow up, Waspinator must salvage. Waspinator blow up, nobody salvage. Why universe hate Waspinator?"
'He created the universe? What more proof do you want you winging little twat? I'd like to see you top the creation of everyone and everything., especially in less than a week.'
Or not.
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'Saying it in a stacato voice doesn't make it any more true'
-Stewart Lee
Oh, I also wanted to say that this concept that some people are "controlled by evil" sounds to be a great deal familiar to another "body-controlled by evil" belief...
The old belief (which some old fools still cling to even today) that the left side of the body was "controlled by the Devil," and that therefore people who favored their left hand were somehow in league with Satan. This belief led to verbal and physical abuse of many a left-handed person... as probably some southpaws here can attest.
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*I only SEEM Normal*
Okay, there we go.
If some almighty, all-loving 'supreme being' created us all, then I think this means that he created every aspect of us, even our genes.
If this 'supreme being' loves us and we're created in his own 'image', then being gay is perfectly normal.
I'm not going to defend any certain view, but I will say one thing...
I don't believe in God. As far as I am concerned, He does not exist, and never has. If he loved us and all he created, our world would not have the pain and suffering it does.
Nothing can change my opinion, except for God himself appearing before me and changing who and what I am.
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"Chances thrown / Nothing's free / Looking for what used to be / Still it's hard / Hard to see / Fragile lives, shattered dreams..."
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I did'nt do it.