This is topic The New Bill of Non-Rights? in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
My best friend sent me this:

The following was written by State Representative Mitchell Kaye from GA. You may find it interesting:

"We, the sensible people of the United States, in an attempt to help everyone get along, restore some semblance of justice, avoid any more riots, keep our nation safe, promote positive behavior, and secure the blessings of debt-free liberty to ourselves and our great-great-great-grandchildren, hereby try one more time to ordain and establish some common sense guidelines for the terminally whiny, guilt-ridden, deluded, and other liberal Bed-wetters. We hold these truths to be self-evident: that a whole lot of people are confused by the Bill of Rights and are so dim
that they require a Bill of No Rights."

>>ARTICLE I:
You do not have the right to a new car, big screen TV or any other form of wealth. More power to you if you can legally acquire them, but no one is guaranteeing anything.

>>ARTICLE II:
You do not have the right to never be offended. This country is based on freedom, and that means freedom for everyone - not just you! You may leave the room, change the channel, express a different opinion, etc., but the world is full of
idiots, and probably always will be.

>>ARTICLE III:
You do not have the right to be free from harm. If you stick a screwdriver in your eye, learn to be more careful, do not expect the tool manufacturer to make you and all your relatives independently wealthy.

>>ARTICLE IV:
You do not have the right to free food and housing. Americans are the most charitable people to be found, and will gladly help anyone in need, but we are quickly growing weary of subsidizing generation after generation of professional couch potatoes who achieve nothing more than the creation of another generation of professional couch potatoes.

>>ARTICLE V:
You do not have the right to free health care. That would be nice, but from the looks of public housing, we're just not interested in public health care.

>>ARTICLE VI:
You do not have the right to physically harm other people. If you kidnap, rape, intentionally maim, or kill someone, don't be surprised if the rest of us want to see you fry in the electric chair.

>>ARTICLE VII:
You do not have the right to the possessions of others. If you rob, cheat or coerce away the goods or services of other citizens, don't be surprised if the rest of us get together and lock you away in a place where you still won't have the right to a big screen color TV or a life of leisure.

>>ARTICLE VIII:
You don't have the right to demand that our children risk their lives in foreign wars to soothe your aching conscience. We hate oppressive governments and won't lift a finger to stop you from going to fight if you'd like. However, we do not enjoy parenting the entire world and do not want to spend so much of our time battling each and every little tyrant with a military uniform and a funny hat.

>>ARTICLE IX:
You don't have the right to a job. All of us sure want all of you to have one, and will gladly help you along in hard times, but we expect you to take advantage of the opportunities of education and vocational training laid before you to make yourself useful.

>>ARTICLE X:
You do not have the right to happiness. Being an American means that you have the right to pursue happiness - which, by the way, is a lot easier if you are unencumbered by an overabundance of idiotic laws created by those of you who were confused by the Bill of Rights.

If you agree, we strongly urge you to forward this to as many people as you can. No, you don't have to, and nothing tragic will befall you should you not forward it. We just think it is about time common sense is allowed to flourish - call it the age of reason revisited.

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Where do I sign?
 
Posted by Jedi Weyoun (Member # 110) on :
 
*L* *agrees with Bryce* Someone ought to make this a petition or something. *L* the FINAL ammendment to the Constitution. *L*

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Clones are People Two

"The Force is like duct tape: it has a dark side and a light side, and it holds the universe together"
([[[[[[*]}�������������������������


 


Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
Conservative folderol.

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I am selling only the concept of karmic realignment.
You can't sell that! Karma can only be portioned out by the cosmos.
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Well, apart froma slight disagreement with the electric chair part, it makes sense. Could someone please explain the word 'folderol' to me and explain how it applies?

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'There's no meat in beer, right?'
-Joey Tribiani
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Article V and VI are very American.

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"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Just so you know, when I become Dictator, I intend to add all these things to the revised Constitutional document.

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Liam: It's a word that I've only heard history majors use. History majors and John Linnell. Anyway, it's just a fancy way of saying garbage.

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"Near the door! They leave reality inside!"
 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
*grumbles @ Article V*

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"A Star Wars picture that preaches against greed is a little like Bill Clinton in the pulpit for a chastity-begins-at-home campaign."

-Rex Murphy on Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
The problem with public housing is that there are people, lots of them, who will be moved into nice public housing, destroy the place, and move on. They turn everywhere they go from a livable abode into a trashed "war zone."

These same people will trash their bodies, and expect us to foot the bill for their drug addiction, AIDS, etc. Every weekend the hospital in Uniontown fills up with people on public health care seeking emergency treatment... for hangovers. Or detox.

So, while universal health care WOULD be nice, as long as there are so many people to abuse the system (as they do in public housing), and as long as we continue to tolerate them, it's not going to happen.

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
*thinks most foreigners can not understand our view of Article VIII*

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"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.



 


Posted by Cargile (Member # 45) on :
 
Cool.

'Bout time someone from Georgia had intelligence besides myself. . .and my mother.
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
*on the other hand, thinks foreigners know EXACLTLY what article VIII is about. But you seem to enjoy doing it so much anyway...*

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'There's no meat in beer, right?'
-Joey Tribiani
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Liam it isn't about the UK!

We would like nations to fight without us, but they never seem to. You'd think countries in the Middle East would have taken care of Saddam themselves back in the early 90's, but we (NATO) had to start and they helped. You'd think Russia and Eastern European countries would have wanted to stop a Dictator (since they were socialists and commies once), but we're having to do it in the name of 'human rights' and 'proactive global security.' Which to me means taking care of something before it gets out of hand.

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Yeah.

*Homerspeak*
Stupid other countries. D'oh!

*Eric Idle voice*
When they're in a jam, they're all "Hey, give us a hand up luv, send us some foreign aid, and some o' them high-tech weaponry, and some more foreign aid, and troops to teach us how to use the weapons, and maybe some bullying the other countries into supporting us, and a little bit more foreign aid, that's a good chap."

And when they're OUT of a jam, they're all "Get the hell outta our country, you loud obnoxious pushy fat bastards..."

Fine. Let 'em fight the next few wars alone. :P

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :
 
In Canada, where we have universal health care, it's a disaster. The system is grossly inefficient. There's nothing wrong with the funding levels, its that people with a boo-boo on the finger insist on going to the hospital. People around here, in Ontario, bitch about hospital service, and long waits in the emergency room. And, yes, there are long waits. But that's because the hospitals are choked with boo-boos. A few months ago, my grandfather went in unexpected convulsions, at my cottage, far from medical help. We had an ambulence there within ten minutes, and he was in intensive care within forty-five. And do you know why he got in? Because he needed to.

Our ER wards are choked with people who have a migrane, or, like just a few days ago, a girl who threw up. To console her, her mother bought her a big bag of chocolate cookies. ?????

I propose that Canada keep its current health care system, but with one proviso: a twenty dollar charge for ER service. All of tha money would go to the hospital. I know that goes against what we Canadians believe in, but it would prevent people with cuts from coming to the hospital unless it was serious. And if you are hurt, perhaps a deeper cut or maybe a broken wrist, 20 bucks will be a small price to pay for faster service.

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Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 


Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :
 
Oh, and, I want to sign, too.

And Jay, how much are you willing to pay in tax? Because that's what social services cost. Governments to make money, they take it from you and me. Whenever I hear someone wanting more spending, I always wonder if they would still want that spending increase if it was put to them like this:

Mr. Smith: "I would like a thirty-five percent increase in social spending."
Government: "Very well, Mister Smith. Please pay an additional twenty percent income tax." (The longest runnning temporary measure in history.)
Mr. Smith: "Er, um..."

My father, who worked his way through university and has been working hard ever since, should not have to give his hard earned dollars to drug addicts on welfare, who are living in subsidized (sp?)housing and sending their kids to school for free, and if they OD, there's always myu dad to pay for their treatment.

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Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
I never said it was about the UK. Where'd you get that idea.

And I think that the war against Molosovic is right. It's just being done wrong. NATO is an out-of-date blundering beast unable to do anything. the UN should have gotton involved from the start. And ground troops should have been sent in ages ago. And the people flying those bombers should keep their glasses on.

And a couple of other points. NATO does NOT equal the US.

And Bryce, my comment about you seeming to love jumping into wars (now at least. Pity you didn't have that attitude back in 1939) wasn't actually talking about the current war or the Gulf, which I agree with (even if the quick response in the Gulf was mainly about the US and oil). Still, Vietnam eh? THAT went well didn't it?

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'There's no meat in beer, right?'
-Joey Tribiani
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Part of living in a society is giving up some things to provide for larger things. For instance, me and the folks down the street can't exactly build a lunar base or a space shuttle or even a satellite, can we?

Furthermore, if part of my paycheck is putting the child of a drug addict through school, I should consider myself a very lucky man indeed. Every child deserves the most complete education we can give them.

I consider myself an individualist, but what kind of individuals will we get if we don't educate them?

On second thought...I'm just a walking contradiction, and no one should listen to anything I say.

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"Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love."
--
Soul Coughing
 


Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :
 
Education should be fully funded. It's in a governments best interest to have well educated citizens. And, before I go to sleep, no child should be living with a drug-addict.

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Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Canada's Health Care System a disaster?

I'll agree that it does raise the possibilty of more people visiting the doctor for minor things and clogging ERs, but Canada's system's, despite its waiting lists and service cutbacks and constant nurses strikes, is far superior to any kind of pay-to-live crap the Americans have. I certainly don't disagree with the concept of a parallel private system, (we do have a parallel private education system), but without free health care for all of its citizens, a government should be held accountable for all those poverty-stricken individuals who die as a result of they not having health insurance.

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"A Star Wars picture that preaches against greed is a little like Bill Clinton in the pulpit for a chastity-begins-at-home campaign."

-Rex Murphy on Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Liam: Just didn't want you to think I was dissing the UK.

Ok, when was the last NATO or UN operation that didn't involve the United States?

The UN is no better a war or peace than NATO.

We (citizens) would like go back to how we were in 1939. Foreign nations pressure our gov't into helping them. That, or a nation requires our help and we see it as a potential threat to us.

We saw Milosevic as a little, growing Hitler (around maybe '36) and we wanted to prevent WWIII.

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"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.



 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
That Hitler analogy is way, way off. Milosevic is autocratic, yes. Genocidal, brutish...sure. But he is quite satisfied with controlling Serbia.

The current war has two positions from which a moral justification can stem: One, that an ethnic war within Kosovo is likely to send the whole penninsula into turmoil; and two, that the forced relocation and in some cases systematic murder of a population is simply wrong.

As for whether current NATO action is helping, that's probably better left to wiser men then I.

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"Gone savage for teenagers with automatic weapons and boundless love."
--
Soul Coughing
 


Posted by Jaresh Inyo on :
 
Not to sound cynical or anything, but I also feel the NATO generals pissed themselves over this opportunity. They get to try out all of their neat little bombs and planes on a country with a modern Russian SAM defense system. This was two good of an opportunity to give up. Bombing Iraq is like nuking fish in a barrel.

------------------
Josh: I think they're getting to know each other a bit too well, if you catch my drift.
Me: Oh, I agree. I think they're spending too much time together, that is of course, if you catch my drift.
Asher: I think he's *ucking her, and he's cheating on his wife, and he's risking his marriage, and if his wife finds out about it she'll leave him and take their son, and his life will be ruined. If you catch my drift...

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
US citizens would like to go back to the way they were in 1939? You mean when there was a REAL war waging, and you did nothing? When you could have helped, because the same people you fought alongsid ein the previous war were being attacked by a hostile country intent on not conquering one country (Like Milosovich or Saddam), but intent on conquering the whole of Europe? You'd like to go back to a time when million died fighting a war while you did NOTHING? You'd like to go back to a time when you only got involved in a war because you directly were attacked (and lets not even getin to the suspicion regarding whether Roosevelt knew about Pearl Harbour). The US keeps claiming that Milosovich and Saddam are the enxt Hitlers, but you want to go back to a time when an ACTUALY Hilter was intent on conquering the western world, but you sat around and did nothing?

Well, it's good to know where American citizens stand on these issues.

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'There's no meat in beer, right?'
-Joey Tribiani
 


Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
I must say that the world of 1939 was a very different one than the one in which we live today. Historically, there were people like Charles Lindberg, a staunch conservative, who believed strongly that the goings on in Europe was a matter that should be handled by the Europeans. Lindberg and those who believed his isolationist rhetoric were very much against the United States getting involved in what they saw as WWI being replayed.

To point a fact, Woodrow Wilson was elected on an anti-American involvement platform before WWI and eventually changed.

However, seeing America as an island whole and unto itself is a regressionist policy. One of the few politicians to believe that the events in Europe posed a threat to democracy around the world was Roosevelt. And even he had to go under the table and around the barn to give war supplies to Great Britian and the Soviet Union. Lend Lease proved critical in a couple of ways. Firstly and most obvious is the critical material that was funneled to the Soviets and the British. But secondly, Roosevelt began, through Lend Lease, to put a portion of America's industiral base on a war footing. Thereby gearing up for war.

In a small way Lindberg is correct. The actions of Hitler should have been dealt with by the European community of countries that were directly affected by agression and who had placed Germany in such a tight box after the Versailles Treaty of 1919. But in a much larger sence Roosevelt was correct that isolationist non action on the part of the United States would prove to be an even greater folly in the face of such agression.

However, to say that the United States should pull back to that sort of isolationism, the sort proposed by Lindberg, during the current age in which we live is just silly. The United States and all of humanity is dependent on a healty world. Some say U.S. should close the borders and turn a deaf ear to the tired and poor of the rest of the world. That is unless we have a U.S. coporation actively economically exploiting the populace of a thrid world county, like say Honduras, or to say that we will only help countries, like say Honduras, becase the leadership in said country promotes such policies that allow the continued exploitation of workers by the U.S. coporations is just as silly.

For humanitarian reasons, actions like the ones taken against the Serbs should be taken when people are being killed and removed from an area simply for what comes down to religious and ethnic reasons. There comes a time in the eventual advancement of Civilization that we can no longer collectivity accept actions like rape and murder couched in nationalistic rhetoric.

Moreover, actions like the ones taken by NATO must be more even handed and extend to the problems of Africa. For example, the LA Times recently ran an article with these statistics. Amount U.N. refugee agency spends daily per refugee: Balkins: $1.23...Africa: $.11.

In Africa: the camps hold as many as 500,000 people. Up to 6,000 die a day from cholera and other public emergencies. In Macedonia: the largest camps holds 33,000. The have been no deaths from public health emergencies so far.

Medical Care: In Africa at some camps, there is 1 doctor per 100,000 refugees. In Madedonia the ratio in some camps is 1 doctor per 700 refugees.

The idea here is not to say that one instance is worse than another. But if justice is to be doled out, let it be done without regard to race, religion, class, or gender. And in this ever shrinking world, let it be done on an even basis, without regard to politics, and without that ever present ideology of "National Interest" in mind. Damn that is a "liberal" concept, but don't you think that after 3000 years that we work together to eliminate such petty land grabs? Until such a time we are going to remain a petty, warlike, and insignificant race of beings.

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Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us.

[This message was edited by Jay on June 09, 1999.]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Of course, if they had listened to us (Wilson) in the FIRST place (re: the Fourteen Points, and the Versailles Treaty), the atmosphere which ALLOWED the later events in 1939-1945 to occur might not have happened in the first place.

But nooo, everybody had to make their own secret deals for land and power. And "crush" Germany.

And then of course, they disarmed, as if everything was going to be all right from then on, so that when the climate they created gave rise to the very type of thing they feared, they couldn't do anything about it.

So they appeased it rather than fight it, West of the Rhine, over Austria, over the Sudetenland... "Peace for our time" ring a bell?

Don't get all riled at us for coming late to a war that your countries were responsible for.

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Yo Liam! I know your gone, but read what I mean and not what I say!

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"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #1 : Always try to help a friend redeem himself from a past mistake.



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
*After four days of silence re: the War front, chalks up another win for his side*

Heh, just when I thought Georgia politicians weren't all bad, some Republican senator (I forget who, but not the guy who wrote the above "Bill of non-rights") is trying to get a law passed forbidding wiccan and other non-christian military personell from practicing their religions (but of course, not stopping the Christians.)

(I really wish I had kept the full story and just posted it here)

Apparently, he was quoted as saying "what next? will we allow people to do animal sacrifice and other weird rituals on bases?"

Er. Weird rituals? Like, say.. eating, even symbolically, the flesh and drinking the blood of your god's child? Transubstantiation? ECCCH!

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"... Then you'll see me do some MAJOR dancing on your face!" -- Cosby

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Unfair! I was away for a few days!

Bryce, sorry for misunderstanding you, but type isn't the best medium for communication. Intentions behind words can get lost.

I'm not an expert on who voted for what at Versailles. It was a blatantly unfair treaty, but I didn't know that the USA protested so strongly for everyone to be fairer on Germany.

Okay, lets establish blame divided equally.

Versailles was wrong, punished Germany was too much, and was one of the major causes of WWII. Allies to blame

Black Thursday. Germany was recovering, until Americans suddenlty deceided that they hated the smell of shares or something. Stupid Americans too optimistic about the future to blame

Hitler. Hitler to blame

Rhine, Sudetanland et al. Same attitude that the US took. Desperate to avoid a war. Let Hitler run amok. Swallowed his lies. Stupid Chamberlain. Signing treaty with agressive Centauri. (wait, that's not right). Europe, but mainly Britain to blame.

US not getting involved for 4 years, due to desperation to avoid a war. Told itself that the affairs of Europe were not its concern. Americans except Eisenhower's fault

Is that fair?

Oh, and France's fighting ability being crapper than mine after 10 pints, causing them all to hide in their beds. tachy's fault

Is THAT fair? (come on, The causes of WWII I studied when I was 13-14. And beer has destroyed most of those brain cells)

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"In my defence that bush is actually quite big"
-M the F
 


Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :
 
I have a friend who went to Paris recently. I believe a delagation of French officals met him as he came off the plane and surrendered to him.

As to the comment about the American's not being involved and that it was all our faults save Eisenhower's...I'm not sure how to comment on that. At the start of the war, Eisenhower was a minor figure languishing on the general staff somewhere. The key person for persuading the American public that Hitler's agression was a large enough issue to predicate involvement was Roosevelt.

He clearly saw the threat that Fascism represented and took steps to make sure that America would be involved somehow. Technically the whole Lend Lease program and the Destroyers for Bases thing were a violation of America's delcaration of neutrality.

However, if one thinks about the concept of collective action against agresion, at least in terms of national entities, that is a fairly new idea. Woodrow Wilson proposed the Leage of Nations after WWI, and the Senate rejected it. However, that was more out of political spite than out of real isolationism. But that was the first time that real collective action was thought of in the world community.

If one takes the American Civil War as an example, that conflict makes the crisis in Kosovo look like a party on the beach. Over 600,000 soldiers and civilians died during those four years. And yet Britian postured and France rattled it's sabres, neither steped in to recognize the Confederacy or to send troops to stop the struggle. I think at one point Britian sent like 12,000 troops to Canada, and both Britian and France gave Confederate raiders freedom to use ports, but that was about all.

At some point we have to come to terms with what collective action really means. Do we as a community of nations need to get involved in every struggle in the world? Or does collective action come down to just what the rich and powerful nations who sit on the U.N. Security Coucil has come to define it as: "I'll use collective action only when it suits my national interest."

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That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
~Homer Simpson
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
The American Civil War may have made Kosovo look like a walk inthe park, but WWII makes the American Civil war look like my family having dinner, and going to bed.

I didn't mean EVERY Americans fault. In general, the people who created the atmosphere in America of isolantionism are to blame.

Besides, to get technical, the American Civil War was just that, a Civil War.
Even the Federation would go with this. Look, Redemption II: Klingon Civil War, Feds stay out of it. Looks like the Romulans are involved...Feds join.
The moment it stops being a civil war is when others should get involved.

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"In my defence that bush is actually quite big"
-M the F
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
You're wrong on that one. The Civil War was the bloodiest war we have ever had. Compared to the Civil War, WWII looks like a family meal.

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"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #3 : Whenever someone under you screws up make sure you teach them a lesson more so than you punish them.


 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Except Liam isn't talking in terms of U.S. casualties.

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"According to myth, the earth was created in six days. Now watch out! Here comes Genesis. We'll do it for you in six minutes."
--
Dr. Leonard H. McCoy
 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Yup. You've pretty much proved my point about American self-interest there Bryce by thinking I was talking exclusively about the US.

Anyone got the casualty figures for the civil war, and WWII? Or even better, WWI?

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"In my defence that bush is actually quite big"
-M the F
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
You never mentioned anyone but America in your post.

------------------
"Everything I needed to learn in life I learned from Optimus Prime."

Rule #3 : Whenever someone under you screws up make sure you teach them a lesson more so than you punish them.


 




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