This is topic Morality is it overrated in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
I think the idea of "morality" is some what moot nowdays.

What do you think

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.

 


Posted by Gepta001 (Member # 231) on :
 
then of course there is the difference between morals and ethics. Do you know the difference? Sometimes even I am confused

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"I'm not feeling alright today, I'm not feeling that great"
 


Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
There is is a very thin line between them. It is hard to dertermin which is which.

personaly i think ethics and morality can be obstructive at times, and other i think they are essential, it depends on what the situation calls for.

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
My definitions. May not agree with Webster.

Morality: a system of behavior and beliefs, backed up by religious, supernatural, or some other external authority. Usually general to the specific religion an individual is a member of, and not subject to modification. (Example: "Thou shalt not kill." --OT)

Ethics: a system of behaviour and beliefs, arrived at by reason and experience. Generally extremely personal, may vary greatly from one person to another. Subject to modification and growth. (Example: "I'm not going to kill today."-- Kirk)

Group Ethics: An Ethical system arrived at by the consent of the majority of a group. Varies between groups, thusly you have "scientific ethics," "military ethics," "librarian ethics," "forum ethics," etc.

Being of a religion that does not support external moral authority, I cannot say I have morals. I have a rather strong, and, I think, valid and complete system of Ethics. I live by Group Ethics when I must, in order to maintain harmony.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Well, most everyone has morality, but today people have morality at different degrees or perspectives. Morality in this country and the world is changing. The stereotypical Christian response may be "we don't have any morals anymore." But really the "intellectual discovery" that the world has been going through for the past 500 years now is a good thing.

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Peace on Earth


 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Hooboy. You just had to ask this while I'm reading the Republic, didn't you?

Firstly, to grab the dictionary definition, (or in this case the glossary definition):

Ethics: The branch of philosophy which studies the meaning of good and evil, right and wrong, and moral obligation.

From a different source: The study, questioning, and justification of moral rules.

Morals: The rules and attitudes that we live by, or are expected to live by.

Morality really has nothing to do with religion, in the sense that to be moral one must be religious. Many moral theories are completely unreligious, such as Kant's or Plato's or Nietzsche's.

Ethics, as technically understood, is that branch of philosophy concerned with these moral values. What are they, why do we have them, etc. In this usage, almost everyone has morals, but very few are ethicists.

To answer the original question, which I sense was probably a tad facetious, morals are simply an expression of what any society values, and hence they will always exist so long as society exists.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
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R.E.M.

 


Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
 
I would go further and say that it is a society's morals/ethics (6 of 1, half-a-dozen of another) that define it. It is also, IMHO, the most important definer of who a PERSON is.

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"I cannot live out that life.
That man is bereft of passion... and imagination!
That is not who I am!"



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Yes, I know all that. It's just that I hear the Fundies use "morals" so much when what they REALLY mean is "living your life exactly the way WE want you to, and to hell with freedom of thought" that I HAD to change my personal definitions of them.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
Yes, but I prefer Simon's definitions. He's the man!

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"I'm so happy cause today I found my friends. They're in my head." - Kurt Cobain
Lithium, Nirvana


 


Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
Social Morals are good for some, but others like myself i really do not use Societies Morals, mine are slightly different.

My morals are based in science than in socieity.

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.

 


Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :
 
Do you mean YOUR societies morals? Or the morals of society in general? Because shutting yourself off from society when creating your morals isn't good.

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"Sorry Wendy, I just can't trust something that bleeds for five days and doesn't die."

Mr Garrison

 


Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
 
Social Morals are things of convenience. (Say for instance the moral stance on Serbia). Personal morals and values are more likely to be adhered to, but I believe in most cases survival instincts will override morals.

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".

-From some movie.
 


Posted by Justin_Timberland (Member # 236) on :
 
Ah, this is why I somewhat dislike Group Ethics and Group Morals. For example, the Catholic Church. They, as a group, dislike homosexuality. Okay, they flat-out hate it and think that all gay people wil go to hell. Now, I think that there's nothing wrong with being gay, and that it doesn't affect who you worship and believe in. I still go to Church on Sundays, I still pray, I agree with a lot of what the Church preaches, except their view on homosexuality. I believe and follow my own personal ethics and morals. It's easier on myself.

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Sometimes I run
Sometimes I hide
Sometimes I'm scared of you
But all I really want is to hold you tight
Treat you right, be with you day and night
Baby all I need is time

-Britney Spears
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
In the interests of sounding as silly as possible, I'll add that I think people are talking about mores here, rather then morals. (Mores being the types of group standards here refered to.)

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Disclaimer: The following study in Catholicism is the result of a mandatory religion research project at Ramona Convent Secondary School. It is by no means the opinion of the writer (moi).

"They, as a group, dislike homosexuality. Okay, they flat-out hate it and think that all gay people wil go to hell."

I believe you're mistaking Catholics with fundamentalists. They condemn homosexual acts, not homosexual people since the homosexual orientation is involuntary for some. Why are they against homosexual acts? Instead of following "anti-homosexual" passages (which really are not), they interpret the Creation story as God's original intent for marriage, which includes two inseparable aspects: procreation and union of two people. Since the procreative aspect is completely lost in the homosexual act, the act is condemned. So basically gay Catholics can never have sex. Go figure.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited January 16, 2000).]
 


Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :
 
Ziyal, apparently you haven't met my mother

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Show me the meaning of being lonely
Is this the feeling, I need to walk in
Tell me why I can't be there where you are
There's something missing in my heart

-Backstreet Boys
 


Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
 
Hahaha

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".

-From some movie.
 


Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
Yeah, Catholics don't seem to understand that sex is not the original sin. (that's the problem with religions that don't encourage their people to actually read the book) That's why they have that ridiculous "no condoms!" rule.

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"She's just as bored as me." - Kurt Cobain
Polly, Nirvana
 


Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
*lol*

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Yeah. I mean, if you read Genesis, it's pretty obvious that the Original Sin was Gullibility. I mean, we got two naked fruit-munching simpletons who weren't even bright enough not to listen to a talking snake.

But when we consider Him who made them so imperfect, who put the snake in the garden, who created the snake AND the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (thereby creating the first evil,) it's pretty clear that the whole thing was a set-up from the start, and would be thrown out of any court in the US, as it constituted Entrapment.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
I doubt you can serve the supeana to god.

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.


 


Posted by LOA (Member # 49) on :
 
*can't help but laugh* Uh, oh...... hehehe

~LOA

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"When the toast is burnin', all the milk has turned'
and Captain Crunch is waving farewell....
When the big one finds you, may this song remind you
that they don't serve breakfast in Hell!" ~Newsboys, Breakfast
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Necro: We'll just see about that.
*looks around furtively*
*goes back to reading 'quaint and curious volumes of forgotten lore'*

Hm... To Serve God...

IT'S A COOKBOOK!!!

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Michael: What I pointed out is that "they, as a group," are not homophobics. Whatever info I presented was the official word that I've learned in a class. Catholics, like ALL people, range from liberal to conservative.

DT: "(that's the problem with religions that don't encourage their people to actually read the book)"

You're talking about Catholicism before 1963.

P.S. What I'm doing (explaining Catholicism) is actually quite funny to me. I love my school, but once I get outta here, I'm never taking another religion class.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.


 


Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :
 
Last I checked, the official Catholic position on homosexuality is that it's flat-out "wrong" (the acts, of course, not the being). Which, of course, if the participants are unmarried, goes right along w/ their views of heterosexuality. However, since they don't condone gay marriages, they are basically saying that they don't think that gays should be allowed, under any circumstances to, erm... do... that.

Of course, this only makes any difference if you actually give a rat's ass about ceremonial marriage.

Anyway, where was I? Okay... If the Catholics were to read their own bible, they would see this:

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.

That's Leviticus 20:13, if anyone needs confirmation. Now, obviously, the Vatican hasn't declared intent of genocide against the entire homosexual community (though, technically, I think lesbians are safe, simply by biblical oversight). So, if they've already decided to ignore this blatant condonation of the death penalty for gay sex, why haven't they ignored homosexuality completely?

I think it's for the same reason that groups like the KKK still exist. People want something to hate, so they find people who are different from them in some way, and they direct their disdain at those people. I think the reason that anti-gay feelings are so much more accepted than racism, sexism, etc. is that people can use the excuse "they choose to be that way". Well, it may be easier for a gay to pretend to be staright than for a woman to pretend to be a man or a black person to pretend to be white, but what does that mean? Basically, the arguement comes off as "everyone needs to try to be as much like me as they can; if they refuse to, I get to hate them, and it's their fault".

Y'know how I know this is true? For a while, I used to be one of those people. It's not very often that I admit being wrong, but here we are. I was always disgusted by racism and sexism and whatever other forms of hating people for something they couldn't help. But I hated gays. Why? Hell if I know. At some point, I got to thinking about it, and I realized that I had been rationalizing in my mind. I had been telling myself that gays might not be able to keep themselves from being that way, but they could certainly stop themselves from acting that way. I came up w/ all sorts of explanations of how homosexuality went against natural law: if it were supposed to be, why would we even have two genders? Then I realized what I was doing. I tried to figure out why I felt the way I did, and I came up completely empty-handed. There was absolutely no reason for my hatred other than unthinking fear of something "different". It made me sick to see that I had not only given in to these fears, but I had put them up on a pedastal of rationalizations instead of seeing them for what they were and casting them away. But all it took was a few moments of logical thought to notice just how astronomically ignorant I had been.

Now, when I think about how much hatred there is in the world today, despite the fact that simple rational thought is all it takes to abolish it... it's almost incomprehendible. It really does sicken me to know that this is so. And it's so much the worse when this hatred is hidden and bolstered up under guise of "religion". That's the problem w/ religion. If you can convince someone that your beliefs come from some all-powerful, infallible god, you are "right" in their eyes, no matter how horrific your beliefs.

Now you can see why I avoid the Flameboard. I start out w/ a simple reply to what the official Catholic stance is on homosexuality, and look where I end up...

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"
 


Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :
 
Boo.

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"I think this reason why girls don't do well on multiple choice tests goes all the way back to the Bible, all the way back to Genesis, Adam and Eve. God said, 'All right, Eve, multiple choice or multiple orgasms, what's it going to be?' We all know what was chosen" - Rush Limbaugh, Feb. 23, 1994.


 


Posted by The_Tom (Member # 38) on :
 
Damn you, retro-Karrde!

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"And as it is, it is cheaper than drinking."
-DT on arguing with Omega, April 30

 


Posted by Treknophyle (Member # 509) on :
 
"Faith" is a four-letter-word spelled creatively.

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Faster than light - no left or right.
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Oh yes, Necromancer, the pseudo-Goth S/M sketch artist with the attitude. I remember him. O brother, where art thou?

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by akb1979 (Member # 557) on :
 
Mmm, I heard on the radio the other day that half of teenage boys and some percentage (smaller than the boys) of girls (in the UK this is) thought that is was OK for a man to rape or hit his wife if she hit him. Personally I think that is wrong, but I was just wondering which does it fall under - morals or ethics? I'm still confused by the difference.
 
Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
Quick grab from dictionary, let's see...

Morality: Standards, beliefs about what is right and wrong behavior, esp. regarding sex: Religious people talk about the need for greater morality in every era.

Ethic: moral or correct behavior: The priest spoke about the Christian ethic: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 2 pl. a system of moral or correct conduct, moral principles: Her ethics in
business are excellent.

I agree, I don't think the two are different concepts, maybe just used at different times.
Ethics sounds more professional, kind of like "scruples". Morality sounds more personal, like "decency" and such.

Let's just say they go together.

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
"Morality" tends to imply religiosity, while "Ethics" is a somewhat more secular term.

You'll generally hear about scientific 'ethics' and medical 'ethics', but not scientific or medical 'morality.'

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
Oh my God. Made me do a double-take when I saw my name in the thread. I don't usually look at the date first.

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"I was as dead as a lesbian black chick at a republican fundraiser."
--Burns Flipper, The Longest Journey
 


Posted by Nim (Member # 205) on :
 
First of Two: Then there was my example of "Christian ethic" up there. So apparently they're both used in both arenas, scientific and religious.

Oh, the humanity!!!

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"Babies haven't any hair;
old men's heads are just as bare;
between the cradle and the grave
lies a haircut and a shave."

Samuel Hoffenstein

 




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