This is topic the Ten Commandments for today's Christians... in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.


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Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
No, I don't have any.

But, if one were to revise them for the viewpoint of today's Christians what would they be?

This is for my English class. We are supposed to revise a historical document to today's standards. I got stuck with the Ten Commandments.

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

-Jack Handey

 


Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :
 
Uhm, I don't know them off or anything, but aren't many of them laws anyway, so wouldn't that make them modernised already?
 
Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
Thou shalt not use language that is deemed impure by revisionists
Thou shalt not think when reading the word of thy Lord, but shall take it literally
Thou shalt persecute all who do not agree with you

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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana

 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
How about these four? I think they cover pretty much everything, but tell me if you think I missed something.

*****

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins.

Go into the world and preach the good news to all people.

*****

I personally believe that these are the requirements for a Christian. Of course, the definition of the Greek word translated as "baptized" (oh, wait, that IS the Greek word, isn't it?) can be debated, but I think the translation of the rest can pretty much be agreed upon.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
I can give you Robert Heinlein's Revised 10 Commandments...

1. Thou shalt pay public homage to the god favored by the majority, without giggling or even smiling behind your hand.

2. Thou shalt not make any graven image of a sort that could annoy the powers that be, especially Mrs. Grundy*

3. Thou shalt not swear, or use any four-letter words, or anything else that mother might consider vulgar -- do not speak 'commonly.' Thou shalt not split infinitives, or dangle participles. Thou shalt shun solecisms. Thou shalt honor the noble English language, speech of Shakespeare, Milton, and Poe, and it will serve thee all the days of thy life.

4. Go to Church on Sundays. Smile and be pleasant, but don't be too smarmily a hypocrate. Don't let any children, if and when you have any, play out in front on Sunday or make too much noise in back.

5. Honor they mother and father, where anyone can see you. But once you leave home, live your own life. Don't let them lead you around by the nose.

6. Thou shalt not commit murder. "Murder" means killing somebody wrongfully. Other kinds of killing come in several flavors, and each sort must be analyzed.

7. Don't get caught committing adultery. Don't get pregnant, don't catch a social disease, don't let Mrs. Grundy even suspect you, and above all don't let your spouse find out -- unless it's a prearranged thing.

8. Thou shalt not steal anything that is not necessary for your survival, or that of another. Avoid stealin, not because it is wrong, but because you are too stinking PROUD!

9. If you have to go to court and be a witness, tell the truth. Otherwise, don't tell lies that can hurt other people. Don't tell lies you can be caught in. Tell the truth out of honor, not pride. People who tell the truth out of pride are sadists.

10. Do not covet thy neighbor's ass, nor any other part of his or her anatomy. Do not covet thy neighbor's wife -- or husband, whatever the case may be. For inanimate objects, earn the money and buy your own.

ADDITIONS BY MAUREEN JOHNSON

11. Don't get caught.

12. When thy kisseth, open thy mouth only if thou planneth to open thy limbs.

13. Keep your mouth fresh, clean, and sweet.

14. Thou shalt keep thy secret places as clean as a boiled egg lest thee stink in church -- and to hold thy mate's love when thou dost catch one.

15. Promises must be kept -- especially ones to children.

*Mrs Grundy being that nauseatingly prurient busybody, self-appointed legislator of morality and decency that all people know at least one of.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
and some of my own, to paraphrase Omega, just to be mean... :P

Love and obey the Queen.

Love thy fellow Drone.

Report your status to the Queen.

Go forth and assimilate the galaxy.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :
 
Ladies and Gentlemen
the commandments for 2000 begin...

Wear sunscreen
The long-term benefits of wearing sunscreen have been proven by scientists, whilst the rest of my advice has no basis....etc etc

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Gene: "I AM Star Trek"
Yvonne: "You can't sum yourself up in so small a package."
Gene: "SMALL?!!"

- Gene Roddenberry: The Last Conversation



 


Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :
 
I'd certainly agree with Omega, but if this were MY assignment to turn in, I'd just write that "from the viewpoint of today's Christians, the ten commandments are the timeless laws of an unchanging God and therefore require no revision."

The ten commandments are not synonymous with Christianity; rather, the spirit of the commandments is made complete only in Christ! If we (Christians) would practice Christianity the way it was modeled to us by Jesus, I think we'd find that it is situationally independent -- that is, unneedful of revision based on situation or circumstance.

Thus endeth the sermon. Go in God's peace.

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Dane

"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Heh.

Heh-heh.

Heheheheheheheheheheh.

"God's Peace." Followed by a quotation from Revelations citing a War in Heaven.

How's that go again? I missed something.

Okay. I'm evil. Smite me now.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
No dude, what's even funnier is that the Christ did away with the old law covenant when he came to Earth. Particularly the honouring of the Sabbath.

But we don't actually want to think about the Bible :-)

And I enjoy your one about graven images :-)

Monty: Sing that song and I will kill you

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"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana

 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
[The 10 commandments are not just observed (scrupulously or otherwise) by Christians, but also Jews, and even other faiths (although not all others, and not necessarily all of the commandments). What follows (in the italics) is an informed, but admittedly inexpert opinion:]

  1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    God made you free and intended that you would always be so. He guarantees your freedom, but only if you guard it carefully. Don't enslave yourself.

  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    If you do enslave yourself (to some manufactured god, principle, addiction, or anything else), you will really screw up your life. There's a lot of important stuff you need to be paying attention to, such as your own welfare and that of your family and neighbors. Don't put anything in a higher priority. If you do, you, your children, and their children's children will suffer the consequences of your own foolishness, and it will be all your fault. Don't blame anybody but yourself. If you follow this advice, you will be free and your descendants will benefit also.

  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

    Don't cite God to lend credence to anything that isn't true. Don't try to use God's authority to enslave your fellow man. If you do, God will be pissed, and you will certainly suffer the consequences.

  4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

    God took a break, so you ought to make sure you don't wear yourself out either, and the recommended interval is no less than one day in seven. Don't reserve this right only for yourself. You are all equal and if you don't extend this right to the people who work for you, strangers in your midst, or even your animals, then you are abusing them.

  5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

    Give credit where credit is due. They might not be perfect, but neither were you when you were growing up. They tried (and if they didn't I think God will deal with them for it). Note that you can honor someone without making yourself their slave.

  6. Thou shalt not kill. (Also translated: "Thou shalt not murder.")

    Don't take someone's life just because you want to. God knows that some people can be a pain in the butt, however, this doesn't mean you have to kill them. If they severely violate your freedom, you might be justified, however (see leviticus for examples).

  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.

    It's hard enough to forge a loving, lasting, monogamous relationship without outside interference. Find your own mate. If you've already got one, work on your own relationship and quit trying to sabotage it and/or someone else's.

  8. Thou shall not steal.

    Just as you want to keep what you have and manage it according to your plans, so does the other guy. Taking what isn't yours infringes on the other guy's right to his property.

  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

    Don't lie about what someone else did. If you do, you are damaging him as well as yourself.

  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

    Have a look at numbers seven, eight, and nine above. If you don't cultivate a desire for your neighbor's stuff, you won't be tempted to infringe his rights. To do otherwise is to seek power or control over that which is not yours.

--Baloo

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"Politicians and diapers should be changed regularly, for the same reason."
--(Unknown)
Come Hither and Yawn...

[This message has been edited by Baloo (edited January 19, 2000).]
 


Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
Yeah! Baloo for diety!

------------------
"I'd rather be dead than cool" - Kurt Cobain
Stay Away, Nirvana

 


Posted by Mythril (Member # 286) on :
 
1. keep you lies consistant
2. do not get caught
3. when i doubt run like hell
4. hit them while they are down
5. Be a free thinker
6. once you have thier money, run
7. Do not let others decide your faith
8. Steal just the good stuff
9. Seal all your assest so only you can use them
10. All bets are off.

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I am not responsible for the stupidity of other people.


 


Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :
 
Um... DT...
"No dude, what's even funnier is that the Christ did away with the old law covenant when he came to Earth."

Actually... you're half right. Through his death, Jesus established a new covenant with humanity that superceded the old covenant. But he didn't do away with the law:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven" (Mat 5:17-19 NIV).

Oh, and First of Two...
"'God's Peace.' Followed by a quotation from Revelations citing a War in Heaven. How's that go again? I missed something."

The "peace" part comes in because God wins the war.


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Dane

"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Not while the enemy general is still fighting, He hasn't.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
It's prophetic literature! It was a vision.

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Peace on Earth
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If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)


 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
How would one go about become a soldier of heaven? Like the 'Redeemer' from 'Spawn'.

I think that would kick butt, it's the only thing cooler than being a SEAL.

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I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

-Jack Handey

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
So if Revelations is prophetic, wouldn't that make it the SECOND War in heaven? Given that we're to understand that the big red S got cast out during the first war...

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by DT (Member # 80) on :
 
Yes, but they don't understand Revelation, cause they're "Christians"

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"I can't let you smother me. I'd like to but it wouldn't work." - Kurt Cobain
Lounge Act, Nirvana
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
"It was a vision." Prophetic biblical literature includes past events.

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Peace on Earth
-
If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)


 


Posted by Dane Simri (Member # 272) on :
 
First, you might want to get a refund for that speed-reading class... I said God WINS the war, not God WON the war. Of course the enemy still runs rampant over the earth. But Revelation predicts that the enemy and his army will be defeated forever at some point in the future.

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Dane

"...and there was war in heaven..." The Bible, Revelation 12:7

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
.. and then let go again, after a thousand years, and then beat once more.

Sounds like two kids playing 'gotcha-no you didn't!'

What a pitiful waste.

1. God Creates Satan.
2. Satan goes bad.
3. God defeats Satan, casts him to Hell.
4. God gives Satan essentially free reign over Earth, with little or no visible interference. (Heavenly parole?)
5. God defeats Satan, casts him to lake of fire.
6. 1000 years later, God releases Satan (AGAIN??)
7. Satan, like 80% of those imprisoned, goes back to his old tricks again.
8. God finally wises up and slags Satan for good.

That sound about right?

Me, I'd have skipped steps 3-7, for the good of My creation's inhabitants. (unles you're saying that Satan serves some useful purpose... in which case he can't be God's enemy...)

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
 
Listen to the song "Asshole" by Dennis Leary. It basically sums it all up. Where do I find it you ask? Well, go to www.napster.com download that 250 kb proggie then install. Once installed run a search for asshole, download it and learn .

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".

-From some movie.
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Actually, I already know that song. I've memorized the lyrics.

I was considering rewriting it for the Charles Capps songwriting competition... changing the theme and title, of course, since CC isn't one.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
First off, let me say how amazed I am to find so many people here who are this versed when it comes to the Bible. I've been going door to door for 4 years now and rarely see as many opportunities for a good conversation as I do here.

First of Two: Regarding # 3. The prophesy in the book of Isiah points to the year 1914 as the year when "The War in Heaven" took place. This is also the war that is talked about in the Revelation to John. However, it says that Satan was cast "to the vicinity of the Earth" which explains why things have been so bad during the 20th century.

As for your thought about skipping the part where Satan is allowed to do his thing, it makes sense in that it would have prevented Human suffering, but consider this: When Satan succeeded in turning Adam and Eve away from God's commandment he raised two questions. 1) Does God have the right to rule and 2)Are Humans better off doing things their own way?

If God had destroyed Satan right then and started over with the Human race, those questions would never be answered.

To actually touch on the question in the topic, I too believe that the 10 Commandments given to the Israelites can not be (seriously) ammended just to appease a society that changes its mind about moral codes every few years. Also, since (as it's been brought out before) the new covenant Christ instituted was the fulfillment of not only the 10 Commandments but the entire Hebrew Law, no one on Earth today is held to it.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore


[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited January 26, 2000).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Door to door?? Are you one of those people I hit with whipped cream last week??

Hm. You raise a point, but who said those questions needed to be asked, or answered, in the first place? And are the questions specific enough?

It really leads back to a lot of other unanswered questions:

Do Angels have free will?
What IS the best qualification for ruling?
How can an infallible being NOT be suited to rule?
Why, exactly, did LuciSatan think he was better qualified for the Job? "Pride" seems insufficient as a reason. Pride in what? It seems unlikely that a being as superior (in power and intellect) as Lucifer was would have not been able to recognize a superior power, regardless of pride.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
Hell is supposedly eternal damnation, correct?
And if you sin, and don't repent or whatnot, you get stuck there, correct?
And Satan is evil, correct?

So, if you sin, and are evil, you'll go to Hell, where Satan, another bad guy resides. Wouldn't he reward you for being evil instead of punishing you to eternal damnation?

------------------
I bet when Neanderthal kids would make a snowman, someone would
always end up saying "Don't forget the big heavy eyebrows." Then they would all get embarrassed because they remembered they had the big hunky eyebrows too, and then they would get mad and eat the snowman.

-Jack Handey

 


Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :
 
He's punishing you for not being evil enough.

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Frank's Home Page
John Linnell: "This song is called...it's called..."
Audience: "Louisiana! Montana!"
John Linnell: Don't tell me what it's called..."
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Satan was unleashed in 1914? Is this a confirmation of the Rolling Stones song? And if Satan was chained up from 914 to 1914, does that mean that he gets off from all those wars inbetween, then? Black Plague, not his fault? Franco-Prussian War=Man's (or God's) work, WWI=Satan's? Or did he just happen to be in Sarajevo one morning and go "Hey, that foppish dandy in the car stole my stylish hat design! Well, I'll show him."? And is Satan responsible for the fact that more people now enjoy more freedom then ever before?

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
I don't know what is going on here, but nothing I have read here makes sense. I'll have to get back on this later. As for Isaiah, it is almost impossible to nail down exact dates for anything in the Bible. The book of Daniel one exception.

Revelations uses very metaphorical language and the 1,000 years (I think) is a part of this. 1,000, 1, 10 ect. usually means perfection so I think it has something to do with a perfect amount of time. By the way, John wrote it metaphorically so that the book could pass by the Romans unsuspectingly. If your curious, replace the word "Babylon" with "Rome" and some parts of the book make more sense.

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Peace on Earth
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If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)


 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
This is so cool. These are the kind of discussions I love! Isn't the internet cool?!

First of Two: The questions didn't NEED to be raised, but they were. God would have been perfectly happy (and so would Humanity) if Satan had never rebelled (incidently, the names Satan and Devil mean 'liar' and 'slanderer'). Had Adam and Eve resisted temptation, the question would've been answered then and there and Satan would've been destroyed immediately.

Angels do have free will. The fact that Satan rebelled and many angels followed him makes that point all too clear. God doesn't create flawed things, only things with the ability to choose.

And the next two questions answer themselves: The fact that God is infallible and the fact that He created everything gives Him the right to determine what's best for everything. Fortunately for us, He's a loving God so it really is best for us.

Why can't creatures of as developed an intellect as Humans recognize a superior authority? The Bible says that Satan desired worship for himself. He wasn't satisfied with the position he was given. I think greed would almost be a better word than pride, but I think it's more than that too.

Sol System: Satan wasn't unleashed in 1914, he was kicked out of Heaven in 1914. He hasn't been bound or released yet. The purpose of getting him out of the way for the 1000 years (which, again, hasn't happened yet) is to give Earth and Humanity a chance to get to the condition that God wanted it to be in the first place, a paradise filled with a perfect Human family. That's what Adam and Eve were told to do. Once Humanity has reached that point, we'll all have to make the choice that Adam and Eve both failed: Do we, as perfect people, want to obey God or not?

Bryce: You're right. Figuring out dates is in prophesy is very complex (sometimes they're not there to figure out) btu Daniel does contain a sinilar prophesy to the one in Isaiah. They both talk about the end of the System of Things. Also, the terms "Babylon" and "Babylon the Great" in Revelation refer, not to the literal nation of Babylon, but to the world of false religion in general. You'll notice an allegiance between Babylon and "The Beast", or world government. In the past decades and centuries, we've seen this happen.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore


[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited January 27, 2000).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
If Satan wasn't kicked out of Heaven until 1914, doesn't that mean that prior to that he was still working for God? That would seem to contradict the widely-held Christian notion that the Fall happened BEFORE the Expulsion from Eden...

We're heading into Nostradamusland again... that's the trouble with 'deliberately making your prophesys vague (or vaguer, as the case usually is) to pass by the authorities,' a hundred years down the road nobody will know for sure WHAT you were talking about, and great fools will make lots of money with fallacious interpretations.

Personally, given information I've heard that John was a member of a sect that believed in gaining insight to God through pharmeseutical enhancement, I think he just had too many happy shrooms that day and wrote down his trip.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Just because Satan still had access to Heaven does not mean that he still had God's approval or was working for Him. In the book of Job, it says that Satan approached the throne of God with the rest of the Angels, yet Satan was the one that was causing the problems with Job. He was there telling God that Job would never serve Him if God wasn't blessing him. So clearly at that point, Satan was God's adversary, but Satan was still allowed in Heaven.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
No offense guys, but there is nothing in Isaiah to indicate a year of any kind!

*shakes head because he is dealing with unbelievers and a believer taught differently than him*

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Peace on Earth
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If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)


 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
You know what Bryce, I have to apologize. I was confusing one of the prophesies in Isaiah with the ones I mean which are in fact in Daniel.

The ones I'm talking about are the prophesies of the 70 weeks of years found at Daniel 9:24-27 and the "7 Times" which is in chap 4 I think.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore


[This message has been edited by Aban Rune (edited February 01, 2000).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
I'd say Job shows Satan as MAN'S adversary, not God's.

He didn't say "he'll stop worshipping you and worship ME instead."

And the fact that God instructed Satan to go out and torment Job as much as he could, and then that feeble response Job gets when he asks God why He's done such a thing, says much more about God's 'negative attitude' than it does about Satan or Job.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :
 
Actually, Satan is here calling in to question whether or not any human will serve God unconditionally. Basically, he's everyone's enemy! God's because he is continuing to interfere with God's purpose and humanities for the same reason and because he's willing to do such terrible things in order to interfere.

Another way to look at is this: The Bible says that you are either on God's side or you aren't. There is no grey area. Therefore if Satan is interfering with God's arrangement, he is God's enemy as well as those he torments in the process. The same could be said of wicked Humans.

God, however, instead of destroying Satan or just saying "No you're wrong, leave him alone" allowed Job to prove his point for Him. God knew that He was able to reverse anything Satan might do to Job. He also told Satan the one thing He wouldn't allow was for Satan to take Job's life. I wouldn't call this negativity. I would call it faith in your creation.

There's also a difference between instructing Satan to torment Job and allowing it. God doesn't test His creation with evil methods.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore



 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
I'd like to propose a theory about Satan's activities: He's already lost. He knows it. He lost the moment he rebelled. I think he's just trying to do as much damage as he can on his way out.

And I don't think God ever destroys any of his creations. Even Satan.

I think one problem with all these propehcies is that we're dealing with non-linear time. Sort of like the Prophets in DS9, but done right. All of these things happen at the same time as far as God's concerned. It's like a chess game, with the different files being different time frames, and living pieces. Jesus came when He did because that was the optimal time for Him to come. The most strategic move with the ultimate Queen. "Mate in 5.6*10ex32 moves. Check." Satan knows he'll loose. He may not admit it, but he does know it on some level.

Here's a philosophical question: if Satan repented, would God forgive him?

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
I get the feeling we're going to start passing around copies of the Watchtower here in a minute.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Omega: So you're saying that the game is rigged. God cheats!!! *LOL*

Oh, and that is an interesting philosophical question. He would have to forgive, wouldn't He? Just to live up to His own press?

As a matter of fact, I once wrote a little storyboard outline to this effect.

Lucifer (I like the name better than "Satan," it's just more poetic as well as more what I think his true role was, the Lightbringer, Prometheus) suddenly appears atop Jumonville. (For those of you who don't know it, Jumonville is atop a mountain down here, and hosts a large Methodist campground, and a giant white metal cross that can be seen for miles.) Up in the great meadow where the cross stands, he draws this giant firely circle folled with symbols and such. It's a Summoning, where L is basically trying to make contact with the big G. He plays music, trying to attract attention, and watches the sky. (I got the Idea while listening to Peter Gabriel's "Come Talk To Me" of the 'Us' album, Here's a bit

*I can imagine the moment
Breaking out through the silence
All the things that we both might say
And the heart it will not be denied
Till we're both on the same damn side
All the barriers blown away

I said please talk to me
Won't you please come talk to me
Just like it used to be
Come on, come talk to me*

In the end, though, nothing happens. There's no answer. Dejected, Lucifer walks away, but deigns to have a short conversation with a human who happened to be present, when he reveals that he's been tired of the constant conflict for a long time... more than a thousand years... and tries this every hundred years.

I never got around to writing the actual story, though.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Omega: Your question does not hold any theological merit, but if Satan did repent then Creation would have to revert to the state it was in in Genesis 1. Earth as it is depends on Satan's actions. (Do you understand that?)

A logical end to repenting would most likely mean the destruction of the known universe, because a switch to Genesis 1 is impossible for mankind to consider. God on the other hand...

First: Job is regarded by the majority of conservative Wesleyan scholars to be fictional, it merit is in what it says to the believer, not in its historical truthfulness.

Aban: After looking at the passage in question and my OT notes from last semester I have the answer. The passage refers to the length of the Exile and the reign of Antiochus IV, Ephinanes (sp.) It is a prophecy for the Jewish people that has already occurred. the Awful Horrror is the pig Antiochus sacrificed in the Temple. If I have this right Antiochus was killed sometime after the sacrifice and eventually Israel gained its independence.
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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 28, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 28, 2000).]
 


Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :
 
I thought you guys liked taking things literally.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.


 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Not Always

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
Like I said.. only when it's convenient.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
Only when the truth is literal. In this case the truth is metaphorical.

Come on guys, what was any different in those 1,000 years you were talking about as apposed to any other years: nothing!

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
*NOMADspeak* "Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated."

You only claim its metaphorical because otherwise, it would not make sense. If it made sense, you would claim it was literal.

This is comonly known as 'picking and choosing' what bits to believe. "The Bible is literally true, except in those cases where it is wrong or illogical, in which case it's a true metaphor about (insert made-up explanation here.)"

It's a convenient cop-out, as when things change, showing a prior assumption made by literal interpretation (such as geocentrism, held as 'truth' for a thousand years) to be false, you can always say 'oh, no, that was metaphor' and maintain your faith in the validity of the rest of the text... that is, until the next proof comes along.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :
 
First, can I shake your hand?

"Blind faith is the crutch of fools".

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".

-From some movie.
 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
"You only claim its metaphorical because otherwise, it would not make sense. If it made sense, you would claim it was literal."

Doesn't that tell you we are looking for the truth?

We do take the Bible literal unless we have clear evidence not to, as in the case of this passage in Daniel. Archeology and historical text (not in the Bible) tell us how to interpret things.

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
Ah, but is there any evidence that anything mentioned in the Bible DIDN'T happen?

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Is there any evidence that the events of Star Wars did not occur?

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :
 
Not in George Lucas' bank account there isn't!

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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
--Bertrand Russell (1872-1970)
Come Hither and Yawn...



 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
People look at a paucity of archaeological clues, and somehow 'deduce' that the Biblical accounts are true. Riiiight.

Okay, Jericho existed. Okay, so its walls fell fown. BFHD, because the Middle East is full of earthquake faults.

Just because I know that New York City existed doesn't prove that the events described in King Kong are factual.

Can anybody prove the events in DRACULA (the book, not the movie) didn't take place, for that matter?

Well, I can think of one event that most likely did not happen as it was described in Biblical terms, since the result should have been the annihilation of life on Earth... the sun did NOT "stand still in the sky." For one, the Solar System is not Geocentric. For another, the sudden stopping of the Earth's rotation would most certainly be cataclysmic.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
No matter what way you look at it First if God would do that then it would make sense he would preserve life also.

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
The argument against that, as I imagine First will be familiar with due to his claims of solidarity with the deists, is this: The universe has laws. The events of the world around us can be predicted by a variety of simple natural laws. If we assume that the universe was created by a being, this being must have also created these laws. And if the Creator made these laws, it stands to reason that they are perfect, as the Creator would not design a fatally flawed creation. However, if the natural laws of the universe are perfect, changing them in any way would reduce their perfection. If we associate perfect with "good" and imperfect with "evil", then a perfect Creator cannot commit imperfect acts. Hence, the Creator cannot break these laws.

From another point of view, let's say that the Creator can brake and has broken these laws. This means that the fundamental laws of the universe are no longer worth anything. If we assume that the universe was created by the same God as in the Bible, then "whomsoever believeth in me shall not perish, but have everlasting life" has the same weight as "force equals mass times acceleration". But if the Creator is willing to break the second law, then there is no reason to believe he will not break the first. The Bible, or any religion's holy book of revealed truth, becomes meaningless. A joke. God is, at best, a precocious child, always ready to change his mind. At worst, God becomes a malicious entity, giving humans promises that he has no intention of keeping. Either of these possibilites are totally incompatible with Christianity or any other modern religion. We're left with a form of animism, or something resembling Greek mythology, wherein the gods can be as petty and cruel as us, and the only commandment is "tread lightly and don't draw attention to yourself".

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :
 
F = MA isn't a promise God made. F = MA is a deduction we've made ourselves.

And I did once read an good explination for the sun standing still (and later going backwards). Some sort of atmospheric distortion, IIRC. I'll have to look it up.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

 


Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :
 
Uh...no, it's a fundamental property of the universe. Part of the very fabric of existance. (At least for macroscopic objects not traveling at high fractions of lightspeed.) This would seem to indicate that is as much a law of God as anything else. And technically, it was derived by induction, not deduction. Well, wait...hmm...observed properties...but is "things fall down" an axiom? I suppose so... *fades into internalspeak*

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
The last thing I'll say on this matter is that Isaiah uses figurative, metaphorical language.

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :
 
*Sensors indicate nothing to report, Captain.*

[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited February 02, 2000).]
 


Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :
 
... and we're back to "literalists" claiming metaphor AGAIN.

BTW: the Bible does NOT say "the sun stopped in the Sky, and God protected the beings of the Earth, that they might not be flung off into space," so adding your assumed protection is simply more interpretation, with no basis in literality.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson



 


Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :
 
*asks Baloo and Omega to speak because I said I would not*

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-
 


Posted by Harry (Member # 265) on :
 
Read the book "Gods of the New Millennium" by Alan F. Alford. Weird story, but actually pretty credible!

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So small,
so innocent,
so young,
so delicately done,
grown up in your poison.

"Little Baby Swastikkka"
-Skunk Anansie

 




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