Flare Sci-Fi Forums: Religion is dead!

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Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

I was walking around a shop this weekend just reading any magazine that came to hand, when I saw this catchy title of an article.

'If Jesus came back today, most people would probably tell him to f**k off for causing a traffic jam'

My first reaction was to be horrified, but I have been thinking about it and wondering to what extent has religion taken a back seat to the rest of our luxuries. I'm posting this because I want to hear peoples views on this topic. Does it have to be Jesus? What if the prophet Mohammed came back, or Buddha or some other religious icon. Would they have the same impact as they once did?

I want this to be a discussion, not something for one forumite to slag off other peoples beliefs. We've had plenty of that in other threads so just confine this to being a discussion about the title of the article.

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Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Well, Jesus himself gave a list of things that would identify the world condition near the end of this system of things. One of those identifying marks would be that people would have "A form of Godly devotion" but then prove false to even its power.

So, to answer your question, how many people really put religion first in their lives? How many people make the other decisions in their lives based on how it will effect their spiritual lives?

In essence people already reject Jesus' teachings (or Muhammed or whoever the Teacher figure is in your religion) because they have decided that they would prefer to live their lives by their own rules. I believe that anyone who comes around telling people that there are rules they should follow and that there are changes they need to make would be rejected. ESPECIALLY today.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Let's put it this way. I'd make "Doubting Thomas" look like a crazed zealot.

"Okay, you're the son o'God. Heal my finger. Lemme see the open spear wound. Who won the World Series in 1971? What's my secret Cat name? What SHOULD I have done on January 22nd, 1989? What were you doing when The Titanic went down? What planet is Jesse Helms from?"

THEN, maybe we could talk philosophy and theology.

Actually, I'm waiting for Mark Twain to come back and tell us he was right all along.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 26, 2000).]

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

He would know First.

The Bible states all will know who He is when He comes and we will all bow down . Religion is not dead, at least not here, it is very much a living part of AC, ATS, and Wilmore. Most people say today spirituality, with or without religion, is making a come back anyways.

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Peace on Earth
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If anyone here feels so attached to me that they would like to name something in my honor please contact Asbury College and donate money for furniture in the new Kinlaw Library. :)

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

And that's a good thing? The "spirituality" that's coming back is the kind that Oprah pushes and that can be bought for $19.95 in your local bookseller's "Silly New Age" section.

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"20th Century, go to sleep."
--
R.E.M.

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

I reckon no deity or messiah is going to turn u p for the rest of human history. Even if one did exist in the past, or still exists "elsewhere", ther would be simply no way to PROVE to ample satisfaction their credentials. Of course, many would blindingly accept anyone with the p-zazz and flare we would expect... ("You don't ask the Almighty for his ID!"

)

Many more, especially atheists who have watched "Devil's Due", wouldn't believe anything short of a guided tour of heaven and an answer to the meaning of life.

No matter what's true, we'l find out soon enough when we die. If there is "something beyond", we'll know it. If there isn't, it's best we DON'T know it now, otherwise there'd be little point in anything.

And woe on he who tries to convert free minds to the bindings of organised religion. For he is only seeking power over you, and disrespects your God-given right to find your own "spiritual side" by THINKING.

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Gene: "I AM Star Trek"
Yvonne: "You can't sum yourself up in so small a package."
Gene: "SMALL?!!"

- Gene Roddenberry: The Last Conversation

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Montgomery: "And woe on he who tries to convert free minds to the bindings of organised religion. For he is only seeking power over you, and disrespects your God-given right to find your own "spiritual side" by THINKING."

One of the things I've always thought was great about Jehovah (the God I worship) is that he WANTS people to think. The Bible even tells us to keep examining the things we are being taught to make sure that they are true. Blindly following along without thinking is not worship or service, it's slavery! While I disagree with you that all organized religion is bad, I think some of them do ask you to stop thinking about what you're doing.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Except that

"accept this on faith"

is essentially equal to

"stop thinking about this."

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Faith is based on knowledge though. You can't truly put faith in something until you have a decent knowledge of it. The same thing applies to God and religion. You can't truly put faith in God or in the Bible or anything else your religion advocates unless you have knowledge of what the are about and what they have done on the past.

To me, taking in knowledge requires thinking and reasoning. Like I said though, not all religious leaders advocate that approach. To some, I'm sure it is exactly as you have said First.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

Monty: Without looking for sure, Revelations states ALL will know who He is when He comes back. Though some of us will be happier than others.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

So ALL will know, then?

What about Islam? Sikhism? Hinduists? followers of Baha'i? What about them? Who don't know Jesus. When He comes, if He comes, will THEY know?

If so, why does Christianity take precedence over these? What makes you 'better' than them? Why are your beliefs more valid than theirs?

I'm just not buying this.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Well that's very simple.. their beliefs are 'true' and all others are 'lies.'

Or at least, that's what they've been told all their lives.

Of course, if they'd been so unfortunate as to have been born somewhere else, they'd say the exact opposite. The choice of a religion is a matter of upbringing and good advertisement, not any inherent superiority. Everyone's born a solipsist.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

Ultra: Because theirs is the "Truth." Plain and simple.

To all the literalists: If you take Revelations word for word, do you mean to say that only tens of thousands (can't remember the exact number) of people would be "saved" if Jesus returns?

And I leave you with this: "In this century, the typical Christian life has devolved to simply having the right beliefs."
I left the source at school, but this came from an religion-class handout.

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--Then, said Cranly, do you not intend to become a protestant?
--I said that I had lost the faith, Stephen answered, but not that I had lost self-respect. What kind of liberation would that be to forsake an absurdity which is logical and coherent and to embrace one which is illogical and incoherent?

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

Tora Ziyal: I think the number you're thinking of that Revelation mentions is 144,000. That number is mentioned as being the number that will rule alongside Christ in Heaven. That is not the limit, though of those that will be "saved" or benefit from the Kingdom.

And yes, for various reasons, that is one of the few things in Revelation that can be taken literally.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

I just recently heard someone say about the Book of Revelations "Who knows what kind of mushrooms they were feeding St. John on Patmos?" And this was a Xian clergyperson.

Can anyone here truthfully and assuredly say that, if they had been raised in some other religion, they would have converted to the one they're in now (assuming they were raised in the one they're in now)? If anyone thinks they would have, I'm afraid you are almost certainly sadly mistaken.

To comment on what some people were saying... If Jesus came back today and proved that he really was a demigod and all the Xian stuff is true, I'd probably walk up to him, smack him over the head, and say "What the hell were you thinking?!" Same goes for any other god who claims to have the option of controlling the universe.

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Makes it easy when you can pick and choose what to take literally, huh?

That way, when you come across something that's contradictory (like certain prophecies concerning the Messiah which JC didn't quite fulfil), unpleasant (like God sending bears to eat 42 children), or just plain wrong (like JC's clearly stating that the kingdom of God would come within the disciples' lifetimes) when taken literally, you can say "Oh, that was just a metaphor!" And feel better about your cerebral capacity.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

I refuse to answer some of the questions here truthfully because it will only get people upset at me.

The thing with prophecy is that some of it has already occurred and some of it has not. Generally, most believe the prophecy that has already occurred has historical evidence to back it up.

And I was a classical American like a lot of you until my conversion. I wasn't born this way.

[This message has been edited by bryce (edited January 28, 2000).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

So, then, you're better than us 'Classic Americans', right? We're nothing more than 'Classic Americans' until we accept Jesus as our personal savior, right?

Well, guess what? I'm Canadian.

Posted by Elim Garak (Member # 14) on :

"American" isn't a nationality, anyway.

Posted by Aban Rune (Member # 226) on :

I have to say that I agree with Bryce. For some reason, this has turned from a pleasant and thought provoking exchange of ideas and beliefs into a pointless arguement. Now, I love good conversations, but, no offense guys, I'm not into pointless arguements.

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"A gathering of Angels appeared above my head. They sang to me this song of hope, and this is what they said..." -Styx

Aban's Illustration www.thespeakeasy.com/alanfore

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

My only intent was to make a reference to the majority of Americans represented on this board.

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What started in Jerusalem as a relationship, went on to become a philosophy in Athens, an institution in Rome, a culture in nothern Europe, and was turned into an enterprise in America.
-paraphrased, author unknown-

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

Define "classic American". You can't throw vague terms around and expect everyone to have the same definition as you.

James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man.

Posted by bryce (Member # 42) on :

The Definition I chose for the word is the majority of Americans throughout history. I use the term Americans because no one says "United Statians." Since the Revolution with the exception of the period after the Great Awaking moast Americans have been taught to treat their nation and their culture like a religion.

Its not that I am no longer patriotic, I am, but I used to think America was too great to have any god but itself.

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

IMO, people should treat their nation and culture like a religion, at least to some extent.

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Frank's Home Page
John Linnell: "This song is called...it's called..."
Audience: "Louisiana! Montana!"
John Linnell: Don't tell me what it's called..."

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

Erm... That's kinda how wars get started...

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Col. Maybourne: "Teal'c... It's good to see you well."
Teal'c: "In my culture, I would be well within my rights to dismember you."
-Stargate SG-1: "Touchstone"

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

Well, then, be sure you're on the winning side.

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Frank's Home Page
John Linnell: "This song is called...it's called..."
Audience: "Louisiana! Montana!"
John Linnell: Don't tell me what it's called..."

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

I tend to agree with the people who think that most poeple won't care if the 'messiah' returns. I use that term loosely because I'm referring to the holy figures of all religions.

In this day and age, people are consumed by their own self importance. Religion has taken a back seat to personal aims and goals. Until that changes (if that changes) we will see the situation change.

Peoples beliefs are now defined by their experiences throughout their lives and are not taught to them by religious clerics. I myself was brought up as a god fearing muslim and was pretty religious up until the age of 11 when I started to think for myself. Most people wouldn't dare to question their religious teacher but one fateful day, I thought he'd made a mistake, I corrected him and he hit me. That was the turning point for me, and I'm sure most people have experiences which represent the turning point in their lives.

I still believe in god and heaven and hell, but believe that the path to each of these is defined by your achievements in life and not necessarily how religious one has been and who they worship. I still cringe when I hear these stories that only followers of Jesus or only muslims will be able to attain their place in heaven.

If someone does come back to 'save' humanity, I'd like to think that they'd save everyone and not only their own kind. I'd also like to think that they'd be accepted because like it or not, humanity DOES need some saving. Unless we change our attitudes about others, we'll end up destroying each other and that I think would be an extremely wasteful way for us to bow out.

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Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.

Posted by Montgomery (Member # 23) on :

I tend to agree. I actually wouldn't call myself an atheist in any sense. I just think that:

a) My "born-into" religion, Catholicism, is based on a historical text of dubious authenticity

b) Religion is no longer a necessary social tool for implanting a moral code into each new generation

c) I disagree with several doctrines of the Catholic Church, and have recently been disgusted to find some figureheads of it spout bigotry and demand their "flock" rush to support their stance. No bloody way.

d) I am capable of making my own value judgements on whatis right and wrong. religious leaders are welcome to express their opinion, give reasons and I shall weigh it logically in my mind. I will NOT accept their beliefs blindly without question. And I will not succomb to the notion that any one group is, because of their beliefs, "chosen of God". Because frankly gentlepersons, that is bullshit.

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"You don't need eyes to see; you need VISION"
- Faithless / Reverence

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

*stands up and applauds Monty* Encore! Encore!

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Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

Just to let everyone know that my last post was a joke and not in any way applauding the parts of Monty's post regarding catholics, okay?

Now, you may continue the debate.

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Whenever people agree with me, I always feel I must be wrong.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I agree totally with monty, except that I would delete "Catholic" as being too specific, and replace it with "Christian" in general. I'd go further, except that I have not been exposed to any non-Christian religious beliefs enough for me to make a value judgement on them.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

First, what Monty is saying could generally be applied to Hinduism or Islam. Each group has their nutcases and their moderates. They all have some strong doctrines which most of us would find unpalatable.

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Samaritan: "A good hot curry will help heal your wounds. That is, unless your religion forbids it".

Man: (Eyes growing wide) "No religion forbids a good hot curry".

-From some movie.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Perhaps, but then again, so do I.

Like my favoring the Death Penalty for people who don't return library books for three years.

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Calvin: "No efficiency, no accountability... I tell you, Hobbes, it's a lousy way to run a Universe." -- Bill Watterson