Flare Sci-Fi Forums: I protest...

This is topic I protest... in forum The Flameboard at Flare Sci-Fi Forums.

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Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

You know? I think we need our government to do some things.

1. Ban all religions except mine. My Holy book says mine is the only right one, therefore everyone else's is false and they should be converted. Besides, most people are of my religion in this country, so why not?
2. Limit speech. Today anyone who wants to profess violence or hate can talk to people. Only people with good views and peaceful intentions should be allowed to be heard. Sedition should be outlawed too.
3. Don't allow these groups to get together either. Who knows what will happen when they get a mob mentality.
4. Ban all guns. I expect the government to protect me from now on. They can do it, I pay them enough taxes.
5. Privacy schmrivacy. If you weren't doing anything wrong, why would you be worried if the government decides to search you?
6. I think all criminals who did something wrong should be tried again and again until they get convicted. This way they can't get off when the jury messes up and acquits him/her.
7. In fact, lets get rid of a jury altogether. Humans make mistakes. The government is infallable.
8. Have the government appoint its own members. I don't vote anyways, what does it matter?
9. Ban immigration. Immigrants take away jobs that unemployed Americans can have. They talk funny too.
10. If should become unemployed, I expect the government to provide for me.
11. Ban cultural diversity. Dissenting ideas causes problems. Some ideas can lead to violence, and I don't want that.
12. Take away the wealthy's money. They hoard all that money, it should be distributed to those who deserve it...like the poor. Besides, its not like they earned it.
13. Ban abortions. Women's rights? Bah! You're going to have that baby whether you want to or not.

Other things:
I don't care about taxes. The government knows how to spend that money better than I do. Also, White men should feel sorry for the awful and oppressive deeds their race did to the indians and blacks and women. Shame on them.

When does the chipping away at rights get down so far that we have no rights left?

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"Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond, UB Student

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited March 22, 2000).]

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

Most of those are just basic human rights. Taking them away is wrong. I think a sensible person can decide which are genuine human rights and which aren't and can be dispensed with - guns for example.

Secondly, white people should feel sorry for the atrocities committed to the Indians, blacks, women, muslims (the crusades for those still unaffected by this). Everyone should feel sorry for violence committed in their name, even if it is not representative of their beliefs. I certainly feel sorry for the massacre of those Sikhs in Kashmir a couple of days ago. They did nothing wrong, but their death was carried out in the name of Kashmiri freedom. My family's from Kashmir and I don't condone this act at all. If I can feel sorry for this, why can't white people feel sorry for the atrocities their ancestors committed. Is it because those people deserved it? They were savages weren't they? Why should you feel sorry for 'civilising' them?

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Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

[This message has been edited by Orion Syndicate (edited March 22, 2000).]

Posted by Aethelwer (Member # 36) on :

I think you're proving his point, Orion.

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Frank's Home Page
"So, anyways, this is the 24th century. Starfleet officers have injections once a month or so so that they don't go getting each other pregnant. How would it be a problem for my character and Joral to be rocking the casbah?" - Fabrux

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Jeff, that sounds like somebody took the world's worst liberal and the world's worst conservative and spliced their DNA.

Orion: One of the "human rights" is the right to exist. The right to exist is backed up by the right to self-preservation. Thusly, guns, the final line in an individual's right to protect itself. One we hope never to use, but a protection we need nonetheless.

One's rights exist only so far as they do not infringe upon other's rights. You have the right to play your stereo and listen to whatever you want, as long as you don't keep the neighbor's awake at night.

You have the right to your religious beliefs, no matter how silly, as long as you do not use those beliefs to harm others or infringe upon THEIR right to believe differently.

You have the right to assemble and speak, as long as you do not incite a riot.

You have the right to keep and bear arms, as long as you use them for purposes that do not injure other innocent people.

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Orion has a point though. If we forget the past, if we whitewash it, if we blame it on others, then we only leave ourselves open to the same things happening again. I for one would feel a little edgy if things like slavery, or the Holocaust, or the Inquisition, were just shoved under the carpet. Or, just as insidious, if the horror of such events were to become watered down over time. I've seen it happen. For example, the following snippet is a real quote from someone I know: "You know, we toured the slave quarters, and they really had it pretty good considering the time."

Unnecessary guilt is ultimately self destructive, but there's a big difference between guilt and a responsibility to ensure the crimes of the past can never reoccur.

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"What did it mean to fly? A tremor in your soul. To resist the dull insistance of gravity."
--
Camper Van Beethoven

Posted by Chronotis on :

I remember from an American History class, my Professor was discussing slavery. He was saying, that though, it might have been better than many think (He found an old article dealing with slavery), that really didn't matter, it was as he put it "It's still taking away a human being's basic rights! I don't care what excuse that had!" and no one, I don't care what thier color is; black, white, mexican,exc. No one has the right to take away another's human rights, no matter the person's race, color, creed, religion!
People got to realize this-
"Prick us do we not cry, tickle us do we notr laugh, wrong us will we not revenge."

There is nothing different between me and another person, except skin color. And that's what these idotshave to realize.

Wasn't it someone famous that said "The rights of the people should be upheld and defended?"- If so, it's not being carried out much...

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"Power-mad conspiritors, Daleks, Cybermen. They're still in the nursery compared to us. The oldest civilization in the univesre. Ten million years of absolute power. That's what it takes to
become really corrupt!"
-Doctor, THE ULTIMATE FOE

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

Orion: Does the child pay for the father's mistakes? If the father commits a crime, should the child go to jail as well?

Posted by Chronotis on :

Ah, that's a good point:
"Should the sins of the father be passed on to the son?" The problem in this, is that people also try to keep blaiming others on what happened in the past, rather than learn their mistakes. This creates alot of 'white washing,' with people trying to cover up mistakes. Instead of accepting what happened, and learning from mistakes, many try to pass on their mistakes to their progeny. That can also create some havoc on both sides. One side is saying "You did this to me, so we're going to do this to you," While the other is saying "Why should we pay for someone else's mistakes?"
No, I don't condone slavery, I never had and never will. Growing up with a multi- ethnical background (Mexican, Cherokee, Aztec, White Mix,) has alone taught me how cruel this is.
One example that has still survived this day, deals around slavery. Many say "You did it to us." however, technically, it was to their ancestors who were treated like this. And then, no one wants to hear that every one, including African Americans, owned slaves.
It seems that tends to stir up alot of bias, bigotry, predjudice, racism and hatred. Stir them up, and stand back, because something interesting's gonna pop out.
And it's sickening to see, as Orion pointed out, the massacre in Kashmir. Two words: DISGUSTING and DISGRACEFUL! No one should have to die like that.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I'm a bit confused on what you're trying to say...so I'll make my point more clear.

I, as a caucasian male, do not feel I should be sorry for what other caucasian males did in the past, despite what many minorities believe. Yes, the sins of slavery and racism and sexism should be remembered, and yes they should be prevented, but I, as a person whose skin is white do not feel like I should try to 'make it up' to those who had been oppressed by others who had white skin.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

In reference to a cultural / societal question of guilt or responsibility over past wrongs, the familial argument is specious especially when talking about slavery.

Slavery was one of the cornerstones of the American economy from the 17th century till is demise in 1865. Bear in mind that the economic and political power of the South, and to some degree the North, was built on the backs and out of the sweat of these men and women. Consider the large textile industry that flurished as a result of cheap Southern cotton. All the while slaves were excluded from the system that their labor helped to create.

The slave, African or African American (the slave trade was not barred untill 1808 and continued as an illegal action for some time after) was barred from any form of civil life, i.e. voting, office holding, ect. that ensured political, cultural and economic advancement in antebelum America. The systemic exclusion of slaves, and to a great degree free blacks both North and South, over such a long period only allowed other peoples, white mostly, to advance further down the road to economic well-being and political entrenchment.

The time for former slaves to enter the American political and economic stage for the first time, the Reconstruction era, was a failure. Sectional harmony took precedence over racial justice. Moreover, the systemic exclusion of blacks continued and evolved to inclued a new trend in violence and civil exclusion. All the while, those already with seats at the table continued to grow on labor that was now "free" but tied to the land.

Abraham Lincoln talked of a new birth of freedom in the Gettysburg Address, he understood that the Civil War generation of soldiers indeed payed for the sins of the past. In that slavery was allowed to grow in America and the question was not addressed during the constitutional convention, the "fathers" had failed to live up to their promise. A promise of a "a new nation: conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal." It was therefore left to his generation to shed it's own blood to bring that promise to fruition.

This idea is made clearer in his Second Inaugural Address.

"Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn by the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said, 'The judgments of the Lord are true and righteous
altogether.'"

Clearly, Lincoln understood that the economic well-being of the country was borne on the backs of a group of people and that he and his generation had the responsibility to help remedy the situation that white men long dead had created. Futhermore, it was the responsibility of the living generation to understand that those who had borne the labor that made so many others so wealthy needed and deserved to be included in the dialogue about the American economic and political future. It is unfortunate however, that that inclusion did not begin to take place until a century after the Second Inaugural.

~~~

And if anyone really thinks American slavery was a happy go lucky song of the South version of Uncle Remus, read the following:

The Peculiar Institution : Slavery in the Ante-Bellum South by Kenneth M. Stampp

Roll, Jordan, Roll : The World the Slaves Made by Eugene D. Genovese

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Let's see... Mesmerists, Dowsers, Luddites, Alienists, Zoroastrians, Alphabetizers... A-ha! Assassins...
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[This message has been edited by Jay (edited March 23, 2000).]

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Jeff, this debate is currently ongoing in Australia as well. The govt refuses to apologise to the Indigenous Australians for slaughtering them. They claim that 'this generation should not have to apologise for the crimes of the past'. No shit. What we DO have to do however is say this (and this is what the govt should say, IMHO) "You know that we were not directly responsible, however we are aware that you were wronged, and it will never happen again". Or something to that effect. As a member of 'this generation' I know damn well that I had nothing to do with it. I also know that I have no personal obligation to 'make good' the sins of the past. But I do believe that you should recognise the mistakes of the past, to understand where you are today. However, having said that you'll note the oppression goes on. Economically and socially. Everywhere people start with disadvantages. Are the rich obliged to help them? Or are the people as a whole obliged? If so, where will the revenue come from?

Orion, which Indians are you referring to?

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"Blind faith is the crutch of fools"

[This message has been edited by Daryus Aden (edited March 28, 2000).]

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

I was talking about the American Indians, the indigenous population who were massacred because they were different. This isn't a 'hate white people' campaign on my part. I'd argue the same for other creeds and colours apologising for the sins of their ancestors. That doesn't make you responsible for the sins of your father or ancestors. This is simply acknowledging that a great wrong was done and that although the wrong can never be righted the path to reconciliation has begun.

If you look at current conflicts, how many of them are actually borne from new situations. Not many, if that. Conflicts stem from years and years of hatred as well as the indifference of the other side. Only once this is acknowledged can the path to reconciliation be laid.

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Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.

Posted by Baloo (Member # 5) on :

There are many who will not accept an apology from a descendant of the oppressor. They prefer to retain the right to continue hating others whom they can blame for their frustrations.

Some of my ancestors were natives of the North American continent, Cherokee indians from the southeast -- I don't know what tribe, but they were from what is now Georgia (or possibly one of the Carolinas). There were a few generations of ancestors between they and I who were ashamed of that fact, and so an important bit of family history was ill-preserved.

Should I apologize to myself for oppressing my ancestors? Should I demand an apology from those who moved them to reservations far from their actual homes, causing the death of many and the suffering of many more? Should I apologize to those natives with purer blood than my own? Or should I just determine to stand watch and do what is within my power to thwart attempts to create further injustice?

Currently there are many who resent the presence of casinos operated by native Americans on reservation-owned property. While I believe that the side effects of the gambling subculture can be quite negative, I also know that gambling was, for some tribal cultures, an integral part of the culture. More importantly, since the natives were forcibly removed from their land to the reservations and treated as foreigners in the land they were born, they must have as much sovereignty as any other nation within it's borders.

--Baloo

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He gets into a cab, asks the driver, "Where can I get scrod?"
Cabbie turns around, looks at him. "Bud," he says, "I've been asked that many times, many ways. But that's the first time I ever heard it asked for in the pluperfect subjunctive."
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Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

"When does the chipping away at rights get down so far that we have no rights left?"

When we are discriminated by the colour of our skin, ethnic background, sexual orientation, gender, and so on.
When we are outcast and separated from our peers because of what happened in the past.
When others receive special treatment, and you are left to fight everyday until you feel that you should no longer be allowed to live.
You say it doesn't happen, but discrimination is everywhere.
No, I am not Black, Native American, gay, foreign, or female. I am a white straight American male. My ancestors never owned slaves in their history (members of the lower and middle classes) They immigrated here during the revolutionary days. They were not cause of the Indian slaughter. But yet I, and many of the "Majority" Race are being treated as if we caused these wrongdoings. We do not get special treatments, and when we attempt to better ourselves, we get outcast because "We need to hire more minorities" If we attempted to group ourselves in anyway, we are labeled as "White supremecists" (Of which we are not.) We agree that these wrongdoings are horrible, but if we were not part of it, nor were our ancestors (The fight has gone for so long, we just started fighting anyone for reasons we cannot remember), why should we apologize on behalf of a race that is as diverse as the world itself. Well if you want it, here it is:

I apologize for:
Being pure white(As in No Black, Indian, Asian, Jewish, Mediteranian), straight, male, Born in America, lower class (as in barely enough to support myself, but too much to receive welfare), tolerant of other people, decended from Anglos.

Would it just be easier if I was a White Supremecist? I've spent my whole life apologizing for things I was not even a part of. I've spent my whole life hearing about how horrible a race the white people are, or were. I've heard of the League of Women voters, NAACP, The American Indian College fund, Gay and Lesbian parades, Equal Opportunity acts to protect minorities (Yet if you went to court claiming they didn't hire you because you were white, they would laugh at you.)

It's no wonder the depression rate is so high amongst the majority (White males.)

If all men are created equal, shouldn't I be given a fair shake??? Discrimination is injustice. Reverse discrimination is as well.

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Well I'm a Bada$$ cowboy living in a cowboy day wicky-wicky-wak yo yo bang bang
me and Artemus Clydefrog go save Selma Hayek from the big metal spider
Wicky-wicky-wak wicky-wicky-wicky-wak
Bada$$ cowboy from the West Si-yiide

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

For the Record: I understand the need for the knowlege of these mistakes in order to prevent them from ever happening again.

My point in the previous statement is that no one should be discriminated against, whether they be black or white, gay or straight, male or female, American or Other. God created all men equal. The visual is just to identify us. If you wish to judge me on my looks, then judge me against another white male, 22, Tauros, 6'1", overweight, green eyes (That sometimes change colours with moods.), nearsighted, engaged, straight, Eastern US accent (cross between New York and Boston) living in Michigan, sunburns extremely easily, lower class, Loves Detroit Lions and Red Wings, one cat, whom hates to stay up past 10:00 PM. (if you could even find another) Not just because I'm white.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Preach on, Saiyanman!

Anyone ever watch "Third Rock from the Sun"? There was an episode this season dealing with this very thing. Dick hears about a "black student support group" at the university, and he tries to find out more. He can't get in, and ends up inadvertantly offending both his secretary and one of his students, both of whom are black. He then, to find out exactly what goes on at these meetings, asks the barkeep where they can find a white support group. He points them to a white power rally. (What DO they have against a lower-case "t", anyway? ) Why is it, when black people create a group dedicated to advancing ONLY black people, they're praised, but if white people created the exact same organization, but dedicated to helping ONLY white people, they'd be vilified? It's discrimination, either way, and I find the whole idea dispicable.

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You are wise, witty, and wonderful, but you spend far too much time reading this sort of trash.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

*SATIRE*

*The following does NOT reflect the actual views of First of Two in any realistic way*

Because, as white people, we are naturally superior, and thusly don't NEED any special groups to help us out.

*/SATIRE*

Well if that's NOT the reasoning, what is?

To quote Stan: "Being a sepratist sucks ass."

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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi

Posted by Saiyanman Benjita (Member # 122) on :

Thank you Omega. I see my point was very clear. It is despicable.

"We have the same air, the same earth, the same sky. If we looked at what's the same instead of what's different, well who knows?" ---Team Rocket's Meowth, Pokemon the First Movie: Mewtwo Strikes Back.