Debate.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
To argue from a difficult standpoint, being a non-Christian myself, and to make points that Omega will no doubt exceed in this matter, Christ did not say "render unto Caesar what is yours, his, and everybody else's"
Perhaps Day believes, as many do, that tax cuts will lead to increased personal investments and spending, both of which can generate revenues for others. Perhaps tax cuts will allow more people to have the capital to begin their own business, which, if successful, will employ more people, thus getting them off the dole.
Or perhaps they will result in less demands for salary increases (due to less stress on personal incomes), thus allowing companies, schools, and other organizations more funds to hire more employees as revenues grow. Thus getting still more people off the dole.
Perhaps with more able bodied people off the dole, a greater proportion of funds for the dole can be used to assist non-able people on the dole (like my girlfriend) to make producers out of themselves (thus getting THEM off the dole as well, as my gf dreams of being) rather than stifling them because they just don't have the funds to help
I would bet, as an reputed associate of fishermen, that Jesus would have known that a man who knows how to fish, and does so, will be better off than a man who does not or can not, and is simply given a fish by a friend.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
What Goar is trying to say is the following:
(Side note: Some governments believe that there are charitable organizations that exist which are VERY corrupt.)
My opinion is that on the matter of Day's proposed Flat Tax, she is right. If the Tax incentive discounts are still maintained once the Flat Tax goes into effect, the Lower Class would, in effect, pay more tax out of every dollar they earn compared to the richest person. This is an absolute boon for the upper class. Now, if either the Tax incentives were given to everyone or completely stripped away, then things WOULD be fair. I'm not sure if Goar would be satisfied then.
First: Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man how to fish, and you'll feed him for life. I know.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited July 26, 2000).]
Mmmmmm... fish...
*/HomerSpeak*
This girl's whole argument is based upon the idea that tax cuts hurt the poor. She treats it like it's completely obvious. Not bloody likely. Again, look at the eighties. Massive tax cuts, and everyone (well, not everyone, but you know what I mean; all classes) benefited. Not to mention doubled revenues for the government. Sure, the wealthy have more obvious benefits from tax cuts: they're the ones paying all the taxes. This reporter apparently knows nothing about supply-side economics.
Tahna:
"Most people believe that if they give homeless people money, they'd rather spend it on their drug/alcohol/smoking/crime habit."
Which is why it's a good idea to give to a (well-researched) charity, instead of directly to the people.
First:
I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at with that "Give unto Caesar" thing. Sorry.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited July 26, 2000).]
Carol Goar is NOT a guy. Look at the top of the page.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
As a Canadian, I wonder how well Day will do in the next election. It should prove...interesting.
Then again, there's an old saying / curse: "May you live in interesting times."
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And second, By what reasoning am *I* supposed to give some of my hard earned money to some bum? Since when do they have a right to it?
Socialism blows. All it means is that everyone gets the same no matter how hard they work, if they work at all.
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"The lies I told are not falsehoods according to my definition of truth." Bill Clinton
"All stupid people are liberals, because they don't know any better." Rob Rodehorst
"Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups" - Dilbert, Scott Adams
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Frank's Home Page
"However, trying to convince your friends to learn a language is about as easy to do as getting a date with the pickup line 'Have you been to Weight Watchers?'" - How To Invent A Real Language
We hate the rich, but they pay 90% of the taxes already.
Say I suddenly had an income of a billion dollars. Even under the most lenient possible circumstances, I'd have to give away some 1/3 to the Feds. And have no control over it.
Now, sure, that would leave me with 600 million dollars, more than I could ever possibly hope to waste unless I tried REALLY hard... but that other 400 million dollars? It's gone. I can't use it to build a new set of factories, promote state-of-the-art R&D, expand my business, build gigantic models of starships to decorate my mansion, or anything. Therefore, many people who MIGHT have been gainfully employed by my excesses will not be.
Now, I could trust that the government will do something worthwhile with my taxed money, such as build and launch a Europa Ocean probe, or finish the WWII Memorial ahead of schedule... but... honestly, do YOU trust them that much? The guys who bombed other countries as a diversion during the Impeachment hearings?
So.
(BTW, if I ever DO become disgustingly wealthy, I WILL be spending large amounts of money to have starship models custom-built for me... something amateur modelers might want to keep in mind, just in case)
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
There is a rather widspread opinion that Reaganomics/Thatchernomics were diastrous for the poor. And, I might add that Reagan certainly didn't work wonders on the national debt.
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"When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?"
-Mike Tyson
You need not have experienced something to know about it. In fact, you're almost better not to have experienced it and go by pure numbers. More objectivity.
As for Reaganomics helping the poor, you may be interested to know that during the eighties, more lower class families jumped to the upper class than stayed in the lower class. This isn't even counting the ones that just got to the middle class. The poor certainly were helped.
And Reagan had little to do with the debt. Every budget he sent to the House was pronounced DOA. The Dems controlled spending. Revenues doubled, and military spending as a percentage of revenues went up like four percent. So where'd the rest of the money go? Pork-barrel spending on the part of the Democratic congress. Reagan actually made at least one deal with the Dems in which he would agree to raise taxes a bit if they'd cut spending by twice as much. They lied. Which is part of the reason H.W. Bush was so dumb to do the exact same thing and cause the recession we had.
Frank:
But can you set up a system where everyone is forced to work WELL?
One thing that everyone needs to realize is that whenever the government takes over ANYTHING, it will instantly turn to dust. Medicine, schools, anything.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
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Frank's Home Page
"However, trying to convince your friends to learn a language is about as easy to do as getting a date with the pickup line 'Have you been to Weight Watchers?'" - How To Invent A Real Language
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
That's the understanding that economic reality lags years behind the time at which the policies were made.
The economy of the 80's was largely driven by 70's policies.
Likewise, the economy of the 90's (boom) was largely driven by 80's policies.
Now, I don't know about you, but I made $15,000 last year playing the market, with an initial investment of $7000, so I, as a middle-class person with a poor income ($17,000 a year) don't see that as a problem with economic policy that should be done away with. In fact, with the money I had to pay in income taxes (for which I see no return) I might have made another $6000, which would be enough to let me move out of my roomat home and into a small apartment.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
I learned about Reagonomics and the Laffer Curve (unfortunate name) in Economics last year. I really don't see why it can't work. When Americans have extra money on their hands, they spend it (thanks to the advertising industry). And when they do, businesses have more money, then there are fewer lay-offs and more people with jobs, who in turn pay taxes. Bringing in Christianity is probably stretching it to manipulate religious politics (what a combination). I don't think the government would get less revenue under Reagonomics, but if they do, so what? They need to spend less on the military anyway.
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"See, for a Republican, a heart is like an appendix. It's nice to have it, but you don't really need it."
--Jay Leno
Of course I understand economic lag. The economy didn't start getting REALLY good until around '84 or so.
And I would point out that damage can be done a lot faster than a few years. Nixon imposed wage controls, and almost immediately, the entire economy was screwed for the rest of the decade. So I wouldn't say that the prosperity of the 80's was caused by the seventies.
The lag isn't nearly as bad as a decade. I'd say a year. Two, at the outside. And that's for improvements. Recessions come far quicker after tax increases.
Tora:
Whether the Reps were there or not is irrelevant. The Democrats had a majority. And yes, I am aware that the Reps controlled the senate in the early eighties for a couple years, but spending bills originate in the house, AIRC.
And it was proven that the government would get more money under Reganomics. Revenues doubled after a massive tax cut during the eighties.
"They need to spend less on the military anyway."
Do you realize how little is spent on the military already? The military was decimated under Carter. Regan used a VERY small portion of the increased revenue to rebuild it. I'm not sure about what Bush did, but since we fought and defeated what I seem to recall as being the fourth largest military power in the world with minimal causalties, I'd say that the military probably didn't suffer too much. But with Clinton, it's the only area of the government who's budget has been cut in the past seven years. All other departments have been growing. All this supposed downsized government is in the military. I seriously doubt that we could fight a war with, say, China effectively. Our military is in shambles. It needs to be rebuilt. Now.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
As of 1996, the U.S. spent 265.6 billion dollars on defense. Comparible to spending during the Ford administration, I believe. Curiously, defense spending began to drop towards pre-Reagan levels while Bush was in office. (Figures from the Center for Defense Information.)
Just for kicks, let's compare with some other nations. China for instance, spends an estimated 12.6 billion on defense. (With the understanding that the real figure is probably several times higher than that. But 21 times?)
U.K.: 36.7 billion dollars. 2.6% of their GDP.
France: 39.8 billion. 2.5%
Other NATO members have comparible budgets.
India and Pakistan, two nations you might expect to be spending like gangbusters, spend 10 billion and 2.48 billion, respectively. Israel, of all places, only spends 8.7 billion. (Though that does account for 9.5% of their GDP, one of the highest percentages I could find.)
So I am exceedingly curious to know, who exactly are we supposed to be outspended by? The Lemurians?
Are we not purchasing F-22's at a fast enough rate to satisfy you? Does the carrier fleet lack sufficient oomph?
Now then, if you want to address a real issue, like the distressingly paltry sums we pay our soldiers, you might have a leg to stand on. But spending overall? Please.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
An article I read two years ago said it went up to 300 billion. AND I believe I mentioned a while ago that the US can destroy the world about 16 times over (probably more now).
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"See, for a Republican, a heart is like an appendix. It's nice to have it, but you don't really need it."
--Jay Leno
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited July 28, 2000).]
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Frank's Home Page
"However, trying to convince your friends to learn a language is about as easy to do as getting a date with the pickup line 'Have you been to Weight Watchers?'" - How To Invent A Real Language
**
The purpose of the military is to destroy the enemy and come home alive. I forget who said that.
We spend a great deal of money for many reasons:
Because, unfortunately, our best companies seem to keep merging. Prices go up. Forget Microsoft, what about McDonnell-Douglas?
Because we're R&D'ing products that will be state-of-the art for the next 20 years (Hey, we started work on the SR-71 around the time that U-2 got shot down.)
Because we continue to fulfil our role as the 'world's policeman,' while being caught in the paradox of dealing with people who hate us when we're around, but want us there immediately when they're in trouble.
Because our Army is full-time and volunteer, and because we promise college tuition to our recruits.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Someone also said that the army's job is, quite simply, to kill people and break things.
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"To disarm the people [is] the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
- George Mason, American Statesman and Author of the Virginia Declaration of Rights (1776)
And wasn't the F-16 outperformed by the Russian Mig-29? Although that was back when they still has a military...
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"I can't believe we're actually gonna meet Guru Lou. Everyone says he's the wisest man in the universe. He's sensitive, creative, has a great sense of humour, and he's a really smooth dancer. *giggles*"
"You're confused Polly. We're not meeting Paul Newman."
- Polly & Speedy; Samurai Pizza Cats
For those who don't know, Day is proposing a flat tax of 17% across the board. Only the lower class pays this kind of tax. Now, he was once asked if the Tax incentives for the upper class would be maintained. Day replied "Yes they would". Economists calculated that with these tax incentive discounts, the upper class would pay only 12% in income tax while the lower class would pay 17%. So essentially, the Lower class is paying more to finance a tax boon for the upper class. Who thinks this is fair? (I certainly don't. This is the opposite of the Robin Hood Mentality).
As for giving money for well researched Charities, this is essentially a gamble. Tell me how many people who would actually give their extra money to Charity without a second thought? Well, I don't know, and neither does anyone else. Even if they did get some money, would they be able to finance the health/education/housing of the lower class? If they did, it would most likely be "substandard". This is called two-tier politics. Substandard health/education/housing funded by government and charities for the lower class, and the elite and top quality health/education/housing for the upper class. After all, the Upper class can afford it.
As Goar said, a rising tide does not lift all boats. A rising tide is also accompanied by a depression in the water height. So while the upper class boats are being lifted to new heights, the lower class boats are basically sinking.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
Tahna - well said.
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
And Day is a bigot, an idiot and an all 'round negative guy. He makes Manning look like Marx, and probably would make Falwell blush on an issue or two. *sighs* The problem with democracy is that we can't stop assholes like him from running. 
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"When I was in prison I was wrapped up in all those deep books. That Tolstoy crap. People shouldn't read that stuff. When we read these books what purpose does it serve in this day and time?"
-Mike Tyson
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
Are we the only country with really boring leaders? You may disagree with Balir, but I don't recall him ever being called a mad, power-crazed, sexually repressed racist nazy supporting bigot.
He's got a silly smile. And Hauge's got a silly forehead (just to be equal).
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Let me know when you're going to get around to that, okay? I'll come out on the line and stand beside you.
Well, to be more acctrate, you'll be coming out on the line with me, 'cause I can't remember when I last went to an anti-pseudochristian rally with any christians.
Oh, as for how the F-22 is doing.. It must be well-received, if the JSF, patterned on it, is being ordered by both the US Navy and Marines.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 02, 2000).]
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
But he still is that.
Oh, the guy may have good intentions... but as they say, the road to Hell is paved with the stuff.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Did I say this? Did I say anything vaguely resembling this?
If someone doesn't follow the teachings of Christ, then they ain't a Christian, no matter what they call themselves. I'm guessing that most of them are simply misguided, but some are probably just malicious (Farakhan, etc.).
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Not in those words, no, but you've said it all along.
"Follow the teachings of Christ?" That's a laugh. If you really did listen to Christ, you'd never say guns buy your freedom. In fact, you'd sooner be killed than pull the trigger yourself. Killing another person is almost like (according to you) believing in evolution, only worse, because Christ didn't tell you not to believe in Evolution. Who was it that said you can't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible? There's only one word for a person who doesn't do what he says.
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
[This message has been edited by Tora Ziyal (edited August 03, 2000).]
"I suppose it might be comforting to think that everyone who isn't your particular brand of Christian is a lying fraud"
Did I say this? Did I say anything vaguely resembling this?
If someone doesn't follow the teachings of Christ, then they ain't a Christian, no matter what they call themselves. I'm guessing that most of them are simply misguided, but some are probably just malicious (Farakhan, etc.).
I think you just answered your own question, Omega. Let's see now, I was baptized a Catholic, but I hardly go to church anymore. I'm not one to believe in anything like the Ressurection or the miracles of the Holy Spirit. But what I DO believe in is the PARABLES. The teachings Jesus gives to his apostles. The Parable of the Sower, The Parable of the Prodigal Son, The Parable of the Good Samaritan (my favourite).
So let me guess, because I don't follow the entire new testament that means that I'm not a Christian by your own definitions, right? And are your own definitions are binding to the point that because I don't follow every single verse on the NT then I should be consigned to the fires of hell where I should burn baby burn burn burn, huh?
Tora: You're born a Gemini, aren't you?
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 03, 2000).]
I don't believe I've ever said that. All I say is that gun control increases crime, and is therefore a bad idea. There is evil out there. Anyone would be a fool not to defend theirself against it. You know, that "shrewd as snakes" thing.
"In fact, you'd sooner be killed than pull the trigger yourself."
In all honesty, I'd like to think that if it was only my life at stake, I'd rather take the chance on getting shot and try to find another solution. If I'm defending others, though, I couldn't in good conscience risk THEIR lives. I'd have to take the shot when I had the chance.
Tahna:
Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God? That's pretty much the definitive question. And what happens after you die is not my call.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
"The second ammendment will never be outdated. It will be needed as long as criminals pose a threat to law-abiding citizens, and as long as the government has the power to take away your freedom. To coin a phrase, it is 'nesecary for the security of a free state.'"
You're saying that guns are necessary for the security of a free state, therefore "guns buy your freedom."
You'd better get used to people paraphrasing your own words against you. You'll get a lot of that in politics.
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Tahna: Gemini?? What gave you that idea? I'm a cancer.
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
"I bring not peace, but the sword."
(Of course, it's also well known that 'the Devil can quote scripture to his own ends,' so make of that what you will.)
You know, JC wasn't above being violent when he believed the situation called for it. Ask the money-changers at the Temple.
Hmm, now THERE's a parable... JC attacked the moneychangers, who had come into his father's house (the temple) without permission from the homeowner (God). Therfore, violence against a home invader is biblifcally justifiable.
See, you can use the durn book to say anything you want.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
Another thing, does this then mean that the Bible is contradictory?
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
After all, the original God wasn't working out. People weren't pleased when he kept smiting them. Getting someone to kill his virgin daughters didn't endear him to the public either. And as for that flood...
So his PR men talked to him, and we got "New and improved New Testement God! Now comes with 100% forgiveness power! You've shot your own mother? Say sorry, you'll be in heaven! You stole someone's Charizard card? As long as God can have your Japanese Neo, you'll be a shoe-in. Everyone's now welcome in heaven! Buy God now. Comes complete with Son of God: Jesus. Tired of remembering all those commandments? Ten too much for you? Don't worry. Jesus is here to make your life easier. Now there's just TWO, yes, TWO commandments. What a great offer.
Order your Jesus and God now, and we'll even throw in a bonus Holy Spirit. Understand foreign friends and New York cabbies. WARNING: Holy Spirit does not work on Geordie's."
"God. Available in all good churches. And most bad ones too."
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited August 05, 2000).]
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
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Lori, you lack...subtlety. You came from a military family; I knew both your parents very well. They thought in black and white. You think in black and white. No
shades of grey whatsoever...and diplomacy is all shades of grey. - Star Trek: The Lost Years
A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
Omega: Chill Brother, there's always the Tribulation. If it comes soon they'll all have a chance to reconsider.
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
BTW, I'm still confused by this "Annointed class of 2003" thing. What''s happening to you Bryce in 2003?
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
The Tribulation is talked about throughout all the Bible (but you have to know what you are looking for) and is the subject of, say half, of Revelation. You need a little background information, first.
The end of the world will begin with the Rapture of the church. We will be taken up to Heaven before the Tribulation. The Tribulation (and you'll find two different amounts of time...they are 3.5 and 7 years, most people believe 7) is the 7 year period after the Rapture where non-believers have one last chance to convert or to remain unbelievers. Lots of horrible things happen that either make people believe in God or to further reject Him and massacre the new believers. After the 7 year Tribulation, Christ will come the 2nd time and judge everyone who has ever lived. Some will go to Heaven, others will be cast to Hades and then Christ will reign forever.
It's very confusing and I am just studying it deeply for the first time myself, but I do have the basics down. Revelation is what Tim LaHaye's "Left Behind" Series is based on. He has each book take a few chapters of Revelation and tries to show us plainly what Revelation and the Bible is saying to us. I hear it's also easier to read. :-)
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
You think I'm talking gobledygook, look at the post above mine. Rapture. Tribulation. Ri-ight.
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper
--
T. S. Eliot
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
It's seen by others as a metaphor-ridden treatise on the fall of the Roman Empire.
In any case, after due consideration, I find the text highly suspect in both its origins and its veracity, and consider people who devoutly believe that rubbish just one step below the Heaven's Gate cult members.
Why below? At least the Heaven's Gate folks had the courtesy to seclude themselves and self-destruct.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
The only people who believe what you have read First would be those professors of Christian colleges who also believe that Mary taught the parables to Jesus and things of that nature. (They also probably helped put that terrible TV movie together.) These "scholars" try to make the Bible say the easiest thing to swallow and are being used by Satan to fool people like yourself. There are a lot of people out there claiming to be Bible scholars, but for the most part only people who work for seminaries and undergrad schools in the CCCU are really professionals. Would you trust a Ford salesman to give you his true opinion on a Chevy?
The first rule of Bible translation is to take it literally unless you have scientific and/or archeological evidence to prove otherwise. Plus, study of the text in their orginal languages can tell us whether the book is written in poetry, stort story form, fiction, non-fiction, ect. Revelation was written in a literal way of writing (I'm not a literature person) unlike the early parts of Genesis which suggest a fable, folklore format.
We do know John was to be executed, THE EXECUTION FAILED, and then was sent to Patmos. Revelation was written on that island. He then later died in Ephesius. He was the only disciple not to be martyred, just as Jesus said.
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
About this...
Has anyone ever actually tried explaining just exactly what it is Satan hopes to accomplish by grabbing up souls? Is he going to use them to build "Satan's Death Star?"
"Okay, they're all in place, now activate souls 33,650 thru 987,765,910!" *KABLOOEY!*
Are they going, after suffering torment, to join his new army?
"Yeah, we're the 57th Airborne adulterers."
It's almost as much a 'well, um... we didn't bother coming up with an answer to that one' question as "what does God want with a starship?"
What does Satan want with souls? I kinda doubt he's just an avid collector.
"Hey Beelzebub! I'll trade you two Gluttons, a Sheep Abuser and an Infidel for your Inquisition Apologist! Gotta catch 'em all!"
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
And the second rule is that, when presented with said evidence, you should sit in a corner and hold your breath until the bad science man goes away.
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
Satan did something to make God upset so God through him out of Heaven. We do not know what this was, but it is thought to be jealousy. It's really just a revenge thing, Satan is trying to ruin everything God has created. He already introduced sin into the world and He is still trying to make our lives miserable. God, on the other hand, is using this so that He can become known to everyone by ridding us of Satan and his followers after the Tribulation.
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
Also, do you believe in the whole Harrowing of Hell, leading to Purgatory, and Hell being closed till 1000 AD (not a typo) concept?
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Efficiency is a highly developed form of laziness. - anon (...and boy am I efficient...)
A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
And again, what does collecting souls have to do with this? Souls aren't "lives."
Given that Satan was still welcome in God's presence, and they were still having friendly conversations AFTER the Fall of Man, (See: Book of Job) wouldn't that tend to clear Satan of responsibility for that particular Incident?
Doesn't the fact that God clearly grants and allows Satan to carry on his activities in a relatively unobstructed manner suggest some form of collusion?
In fact, before the NT, (or to be more accurate, before the revision and codification of what is NOW the NT by the politically motivated Nicean council) wasn't Satan considered to be a character sort of like a prosecuting attorney, a sort of 'devil's advocate' (pardon the self-referential pun) against man's foibles and shortcomings, rather than some superpowered evildoing BizarroGod?
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
If I follow your logic, it's a bad choice to do anything that is not completely selfish.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
"WARNING!
This will be one of the hardest books you have ever tried to read. SATAN DOES NOT WANT YOU TO READ THIS MATERIAL!
(Short Prayer here)
The purpose of this book is to show you the many ways Satan and his emons are at work in the world today, to show you how you can effectively fight against them, AND how you can be set free from bondage to Satan.
Satan will do everything he can to keep you from reading this. He will afflict you with overwhelming sleepiness, confusion, constant interruptions and many other things. FEAR is one of Satan's major weapons. He will use fear to try to stop you from reading this book. You simply need to rebuke fear directly and out loud in the name of Jesus Christ to overcome it. Also pray and ask for shielding as you read in order to understand this material." And it goes on, but you get the idea.
Is it just me, or is there something skewed about a book that tells you if you don't like it, it's Satan's fault?
Oh, I know, Satan sent it to ME because he knew not only would I not read it, my conscience wouldn't let anyone else read it, either. *Evil Cackle and the sound of scissor blades flexing*
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
Oh, that's RICH!
"He will afflict you with overwhelming sleepiness, confusion, constant interruptions and many other things."
Translation: "This book is boring, nonsensical, and if you're interrupted while reading this book, as you are during just about any book, we hope you're stupid enough to take special notice of it, since we mentioned it, and attribute it to evil influence rather than just the inevitabilities of life."
These people are LOONIES.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
From reading that book, all I got was: If it's true, Satan may be evil, but he sure seems to work harder than God... I mean, the kid's got his fingers into EVERYTHING from Rock Music to Star Trek!
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited August 12, 2000).]
I was referring to Scripture, as a protestant that means OT and NT. It's ok for protestants to read the "Duedo" books, but we just don't because of Luther.
The books you mention are not literal truth. As a protestant I don't believe in Purgatory, none of what you mentioned, including the "closing" of Hell. (Never heard of the idea.)
"And again, what does collecting souls have to do with this? Souls aren't "lives.""
Souls are more important than lives, souls last forever. God loves us, Satan causes God pain by corrupting His children.
"Given that Satan was still welcome in God's presence, and they were still having friendly conversations AFTER the Fall of Man, (See: Book of Job) wouldn't that tend to clear Satan of responsibility for that particular Incident?"
Most modern Bible scholars believe Job to be fictious. When looking at the rest of the Bible you do not get the ideas Satan and God did any talking. Again, this goes back to knowing what books are what genre. Most of you don't know how to figure out genres in the books of the Bible. *shakes head at the comment of the Nicean Council*
About the book...
It's probably a descent book. And I agree with what the authors says, but the words are not intented for people who don't want to read the book. Your view of it is the same as if I would try to explain some of the details of the Tribulation to you. Revelation is definitely not the book you want to read first in the Bible. I can testify to times when I read the Bible and my mom interrupts me every minute, the doorbell rings, I suddenly get tired, or the phone rings off the hook for a half hour. He's right and Satan will also try to keep me writing long explanations to you when I should be reading the Bible myself. You all have already heard the Gospel, some of you have chosen to reject it. If you don't have ears for hearing that's not my problem. (And that's Biblical)
Omega: He speaks the truth. It may not be from your doctrinal way of thinking, but it is the truth. The author is probably older than anyone here on the board and has learned a lot more than we have.
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If you don't believe in what I say or the God I speak of I guess you'll just have to meet me so the Lord and I can convert you.
[This message has been edited by PsyLiam (edited August 12, 2000).]
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Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.