But on the other side, it also assumes that there's no moralistic or intellectual benefit to being a doctor. Or on a more basic level, "It's more fun to be a doctor"
1. Man has an inherent need for competition. When he sees another person living a bit better, he wants to do as well if not better. Competition brings about improvement, for the most part. Evolution is a pretty good example. Socialism is anti-competition. How can a man improve himself when he must be as equal as his neighbor? If everyone is equal, you will never know how crappy your life is because there would be no comparison. Everyone's lives would be crappy.
2. If everyone is paid the same, then why spend the time and effort learning to be a doctor, when you can spend far less to be a farmer, a garbage man, or a factory worker? You end up with lots of factory workers and very few doctors.
3. To enforce this 'equality', you need a strong, iron-fisted government. This creates a hierarchy, which is what socialism is against. Bit of a paradox. It needs a hierarchy to destroy a hierarchy.
Can't be done!
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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
But I understand what you're saying. And to a Point, I agree.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
For example, most safety labels protect stupid people. (labels at McDonalds..."Coffee is hot", labels on a laptop "If screen breaks, don't drink liquid crystal")Thus, by creating safety labels, we are preventing survival of the fittest from functioning properly, slowing down evolution.
This is the basic line of reasoning behind the "Darwin Awards"
On a more serious level, with modern medicine, people with many serious diseases are living and passing on their genes, wheras in the past they would have died out. This also technically slows down evolution.
The problem (besides the moral implications of allowing Darwinism to occur properly) is the disturbing connotation...probably not the right word...link(?) with eugenics.
Point two: Yeah....hence the standard stereotypical views of welfare mothers and such. Its a valid point.
But on the other side, it also assumes that there's no moralistic or intellectual benefit to being a doctor. Or on a more basic level, "It's more fun to be a doctor"
Point 3. *shrug* This paradox is inherent throughout any society, not just socialism. For example: In order to eliminate hate-crimes, we have to take a hard-line against any advocates of hate literature (racism, sexism, whatever) or what not. But by doing so, we essentially commit hate-crimes against the original perpetrators.
But the final line is, communism is great for robots, but it doesn't work for humans, because humans essentially suck the llama's ass. (As a group, we're selfish, greedy, power-mad...I'm surprised that any of us ever get along)
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1957: The space age begins when the first artificial satellite, Sputnik 1, is placed in orbit by the Soviet Union on October 4. Our German rocket scientists get very
annoyed with their German rocket scientists. � Outpost
"Thus, by creating safety labels, we are preventing survival of the fittest from functioning properly, slowing down evolution."
Can't argue with that.
Not that I'm arguing that the dumb deserve to die, mind you. Just that if there weren't warning labels, people would actually have to THINK about what they do.
But for both Mucus and Tahna, this isn't communism. It's socialism. Communism is completely impossible, as it requires that there be no government whatsoever. While I'd dearly love that situation, a government is required for human civilization. Socialism, on the other hand, is where the government controls EVERYTHING. While they both supposedly have the same objective, they're really polar opposites.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Ok, so I try to defend that very institution and its healing powers in the Cuba thread, but I'm obviously wrong. But when Jay hints that there's something wrong with the concept, it suddenly becomes an a priori fact? I give up.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
Socialism ala Marx?
Utopian socialism?
"Real world" socialism?
Also, we realize that "survival of the fittest" is an outdated maxim, yes? That the actual engine for evolutionary change is "survival of the horniest"? That darwinism no more endorses beating up blind children than Santa Claus does?
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
Well, when there are resources to be competed for, at least.
"If everyone is equal, you will never know how crappy your life is because there would be no comparison. Everyone's lives would be crappy."
That's a rather pessimistic way of looking at it.
"If everyone is paid the same, then why spend the time and effort learning to be a doctor, when you can spend far less to be a farmer, a garbage man, or a factory worker?"
Being a farmer isn't that easy. However, all three of those occupations aren't terribly interesting. Being a doctor is probably more fufilling.
"You end up with lots of factory workers and very few doctors."
Well, that's how it is today, or at least was until recently.
"To enforce this 'equality', you need a strong, iron-fisted government"
Strong, sure, but iron-fisted?
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
I suppose the question is not whether or not it is a paradox, but whether or not it exists and explaining from that point WHY it doesn't work.
Sorry, very sleepy right now, can't think, gotta sleep..... sleep..... sleep.....
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 03, 2000).]
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
quote:
Socialism requires that the government own everything
That is utter gobshite. Anybody with so much as a high school level government course could tell you this just isn't true. You might as well say that "Conservatism requires that government enforce only criminal law and that the rest of society be run by laissez-faire capitalism"
*sighs*
What do they teach you in the South, anyways? Gun ownership 101, Creationism 120 and Single-minded-constitutional-interpretation 200?
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
Communism does not exist. It has never existed. It will never exist. It requires that there be no government whatsoever, and such a situation would deteriorate into anarchy almost immediately.
Socialism is a situation in which an all-controling government tries to enforce equality. It can never do so, because anyone running an all-controling government will become corrupt. Aside from stated goals, and the fact that neither can be accomplished, this has very little to do with communism.
Both have laudable goals. Neither can be accomplished due to human nature. Communism can not even be attempted. Socialism can be, has been, and it has fallen apart each time, usually screwing everyone along with it.
Basically, any situation in which the government has more power than it needs is BAD.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
And no, it will not work in our world because we haven't evolved that far.
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"See, for a Republican, a heart is like an appendix. It's nice to have it, but you don't really need it."
--Jay Leno
Well, so what kind of government does China and Cuba have. I'm not asking if it is a dictatorship, but if it is not communism, what is it? Same with Socialism.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
If so, let's start by killing all the commie bastards and anyone who's liberal. I ..... uh...... oops...... I'm liberal right?....... gotta stop putting foot in mouth...... *runs like hell*
Let me put it to you this way. I don't like conservatism and Capitalism. I don't like what they do and what they try to do to others. But then, Socialism isn't that great either. I see its flaws as well. Liberalism is probably a combination of both evils. It TOO has it flaws.
No form of government is perfect, Omega. That's democracy.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited August 03, 2000).]
Socialism
=
quote:
all-controling government
OK Omega. Visit Germany. (Or Saskatchewan, if it's more convienient). Then tell me if the socialist governments in those places are "all-controlling."
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Anyway, that's not why I posted. The_Tom, did you see Byrne on Kilborne? Is that where you got it from?(your sig that is.)
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
I can't at the moment think of a government which is in its entirety socialist, except the current executive branch of the US government. But that's only a part, despite it being a fairly stinky part at the moment. And it's likely only short-term.
As for all dictatorships being equally hellish.... come on, give me a try. I can be better than the rest, trust me. Constitutional Tyranny is the way to go.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
(Yes, I'm still slogging through that book.)
As for me
I want to see
Plato
vs.
Locke
on Celebrity Deathmatch.
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"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
And IIRC, the SPD has a pretty strong grip on Germany, First of Two, that is, a clear lead on the next nearest party. (Given Germany's political landscape with so many parties, God himself couldn't get a majority) I might add that New Zealand is also under a socialist gov't right now. (Admittedly another coalition, but Labour controls 80% of the Cabinet)
To be blunt, socialists are a force to be reckoned with in every major democracy except the US. You can't apply the fringe status they hold in the US to the planet.
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
Like...Martok!
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
And less likely to be prepared to properly wield the power, no?
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Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
------------------
"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Gandalf DIES in the mines of Moria, but will later be RESURRECTED in GLORIFIED form having triumphed over EVIL, an obvious literary ALLUSION to that movie where the guy comes back as a DOG." - The Fellowship of the Ring
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Lori, you lack...subtlety. You came from a military family; I knew both your parents very well. They thought in black and white. You think in black and white. No
shades of grey whatsoever...and diplomacy is all shades of grey. - Star Trek: The Lost Years
A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
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"Dreams are the excrement of the mind, feces are the excrement of the body, and laughter is teh excrement of the soul."
--Anonymous Indian guru
I'd like to think I inherited some of that.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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Ready for the action now, Dangerboy
Ready if I'm ready for you, Dangerboy
Ready if I want it now, Dangerboy?
How dare you, dare you, Dangerboy?
How dare you, Dangerboy?
I dare you, dare you, Dangerboy...
�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"
Well, seeing as how this morning's network news had a story about how the German government was seriously considering outlawing certain right wing political parties, I'd say the term "all-controlling" fits the bill pretty darned well.
Now, I'm not trying to defend neo-nazi political parties, but let's face it, censorship is something that governments to the left of the political spectrum often engage in, despite their egalitarian protestations to the contrary. If that wonderful, reasonable, socialist government in Germany (I'm being sarcastic here, folks) bans political parties, then it is as bad as the government that Germany had about, oh, half a century ago that did the exact same thing. Let's see, it was led by someone named .... Hitler?
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
------------------
"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
"Communism does not exist. It has never existed. It will never exist. It requires that there be no government whatsoever, and such a situation would deteriorate into anarchy almost immediately."
No, lack of any government at all is simply anarchy. Communism relies on self-government; that is, the people govern themselves individually, thus creating the flawless communist state. The problem is that 99.99999982% of all humans are incapable of self-government. I know I sure as hell am.
In the end, I prefer Andre Malraux's contention that communism is not so much a doctrine as much as it is a will, a will to feel proletariat by the masses.
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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel
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"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
------------------
Efficiency is a highly developed form of laziness. - anon (...and boy am I efficient...)
A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
quote:
Communism does not exist. It has never existed
Now that is a lie. It is existed. Native American society was communism to the letter. Everyone was classless. Owned nothing, et cetera, et cetera.
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
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"Ultra Magnus is Undeniably Fun!" David Stevens, New York Magazine.
"Total Complete excitement from start to finish!" -WPIX-TV, New York
"This isn't a thrill ride, it's a rocket..." -Richard Caves, Time Magazine.
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited August 09, 2000).]
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"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
quote:
Yeah, but didn't they have Chieftans or some sort of Leader figure?
Yes, only with a few of the western tribes (Plains Indians had warchiefs), and in most tribes (Seminoles, Woodlands, eastern tribes) there wasn't a absolute leader. People foraged and helped each other, shared their wealth, and basically acted like Lenin's idea of Communists.
You have to remember, Russia only came out of the Middle Ages in the 1860s (when Feudalism was done away with). There was a huge jump and painful transition to today, in which the country is still somewhat going through, to catch up with everyone else. Communism, or the latter dictatorship, was the quick answer.
Communism is only part economics. The commoners were supposed to own nothing, thus have no money or a free market, and be supplied with necessities by the state. The only true economic component of the theory was work communes, which failed early.
But back to the topic. Think of it this way: Chakotay is a communist .. "Our people believe in owning nothing, and we are all equal. And because of this, our family made pilgrimages to Lenin's tomb."
It almost reminds me of my Programming teacher last year, Mr. Tuv ... "All vood Russians visiit Lenin's tomb", "Today vee vill learn Meee-crosoft Veeseal Basic", "You get 'A', You get 'B', YOU! Aye, F!"
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited August 09, 2000).]
------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
**Disjointed data follows**
Incidentally, Native American communism, where it might have been said to have existed, didn't last long after the arrival of white folks.
Wampum.
Tribes in which your status was determined by how many horses you owned.
Some of the Inuit took communism to a bit of an extreme.. sharing your wife with a guest wouldn't go over well here, I think.
Of course, in the Inca Empire, Atahualpa owned ALL the gold.
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"Nobody knows this, but I'm scared all the time... of what I might do, if I ever let go." -- Michael Garibaldi
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"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
So the government was that of survival, and thus there wasn't one. Later on, as the Virginia (me home state) colony grew, people were tried to emulate England (where did ye think we got the idea to get African slaves? the British were doing long before us). And then, farther along, we have a democracy. No Communism there.
I think what you're getting at is communism is a system that works well outside organized society. Which is true.
quote:
Lenin was essentially an imperialist with Marxist overtones
I beg to disagree. Lenin saw and knew more than what his situation made of him. The man was compassionate for the Russian people and dedicated to the romantic ideas of Communism, but is often overshadowed by the actions required of a turbulent political time.
The man was there when they kicked out the Czar (firmly closing the book on the Medieval Period) and then masterfully setup a system to put Russia on the fast track of modernization. Of course, things didn't go perfectly (he regretted Stalin on his death bed) but if the situation were run by any other man than Lenin, things would have been worse.
He was essential to Russia being where it is today, and not still back in Feudalism.
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
[This message has been edited by SCSImperium (edited August 10, 2000).]
(On a more serious note....wasn't it the Tsar...or am I too tired?)
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Efficiency is a highly developed form of laziness. - anon (...and boy am I efficient...)
A real diplomat is one who can cut his neighbour�s throat without having his neighbour notice it. � Trygve Lie
------------------
"Fragile. Do not drop"
--posted on a Boeing 757
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Germany didn't get rid of its Kaiser up until this time either. And notice how painful it was for them, too (Schickelgroover, aka Hitler)
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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
Then of course, the depression set in and the Germans got the hairbrained idea of vote extremism, the Socialists refused to form a coalition with the communists, and Herr Hitler squeeked in as "the chancellor in chains," who promptly Fuhrerified himself once Senile ol' Hindenburg kicked the bucket.
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
------------------
"If Picard was set loose on a Monopoly board, he'd try and establish peaceable diplomatic relations with Marvin Gardens and give St. James Place wide berth so that its culture could develop without interference."
--
L. Fitzgerald Sjoberg
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Because I'm the passenger, and I ride and I ride.
------------------
"Homer, you're dumb as a mule and twice as ugly,
if a strange man offers you a ride, I say take it"-Abe S.
------------------
-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor
Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.
Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com
A scene that was cut from last season's "Rock" episode, Tsumkatse:
Rock: Do ya smell what the Rock's cookin'?
Janeway: Mr. Rock, was that you?
Tuvok: An intriguing smell ...
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
I think I'm going to have to start getting all my news from Micheal Moore just to balance things out around here. At least he has a sense of humor.
------------------
Come on darkness
Lay your body down on us
We've been calling you for so long now
We're weary of your name
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Pull your body for a moment from your soul.
[This message has been edited by Sol System (edited August 13, 2000).]