OK, my vote would go to Gore.

(Statistics after 1 vote: Gore 100%; Bush 0%)

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ALPHA CENTAURI

Human Class - Starfleet registry NCC-75715
Launched stardate 8311.23 - Parental Biology Yards
United Federation of Planets

"A dedication motto? What about it?" - Alpha Centauri

 

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

"Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such distant ages, that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us."

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

 

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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
 

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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

Jean Poutine of course.

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"What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
- Dave Barry

 

What, I'm not of legal to age to vote OR run for president?

Damn.

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"The things hollow--it goes on forever--and--oh my God!--it's full of stars!" -David Bowman's last transmission back to Earth, 2001: A Space Odyssey

The 359 Webpage

See, he's like a rural fellow, so he can bond with the midwestern farm folk...you know, hodowns and corn schucking...all that sort of thing.

But our Sol is a bright intellectual fellow too. He can talk philosophy...not that there is any real day to day value in philosophy...but it makes him sound smart. And apparently all you really need to be a well known policico is to sound smart...and Sol "I Dig Dead Squirrels Out of Farm Pipes Whilst Discussing Plato" System can certainly sound smart!!

Sol "I Don't Do It Unless I Have To" System is a procrastinator as well. So, in speeches where he sounds smart, he can make vague promises about the price of wing-nuts and not actually do anything about it during his term in office!

And he writes poetry! Well some of his work is good and some is...well...But Hey, that can be an asset too!! Consider that Lincoln wrote speeches with a very poetic tilt...we could save money on speech writers. And we could save on clothes...afterall, he only wears black.

But he might have the courage to fund some real space exploration done during his time as president and certainly one would imagine Star Trek would become a national TV program funded by PBS...at least he would form a presidental commission to determine the length of the Defiant or some such cannon nonsense. So there is that downside.

So, vote Sol "I Don't Want To Be President...I Just Want Chicks To Dig Me" System for President...and make They Might Be Giants the National Band!!!!

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

If given the chance though, I'd shove both of them in a quantum torp case and fire the damn thing towards the sun and nominate Timo for president.

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So why don't we make a little room in my BMW babe
Searching for some peace of mind
Hey I'll help you find it
I do believe that we are practicing the same religion
- from the song "Fastlove"
 

quote:

---

Jean Poutine

---

Isn't that the name for french fries with gravy in Canada or am I just an ugly American?

Gore must not become president. Bush would put The Bill and Hillary Show to an end for sure, but I'd bet Gore would let it go on ...

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-Small Computer Systems Interface "Scuzzy" Emperor

Operator of the Goulag Hotel, maintainer of the workhouses.

Operator of Cargill Conglomerate Publications, http://www.cargillconglomerate.com

"Woman is deprived of rights from lack of education, and the lack of education results from the absence of rights. We must not forget that the subjection of women is so complete, and dates from such distant ages, that we are often unwilling to recognize the gulf that separates them from us."

Tolstoy, on a more objective note.

 

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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000

 

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"We have HTML and images in sigs disabled here. Don't try it. If you do, I'll shove the image up your ass, then ban you. Have a nice day. :)"
-Charles Capps, August 13, 2000
 

Michael:

Why would you like the fact that democrats have increased minimum wage? This is not a good thing. It's just that the democrats and the media act like it's just so darned obvious that it IS, that everyone assumes so. Every single increase in the minimum wage in history has increased unemployment. They have eliminated entry-level jobs for teenagers. They have had no notable positive side-effects. Minimum wage increases are simply a bad thing, and a point AGAINST the Democrats.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

*runs away in panic with everyone chasing after*

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Teddy Roosevelt: "Speak softly and carry a big stick."
Yosemite Sam: "Well, I speak loudly and I carry a bigger stick...and I use it too!"
 

Let's look at the numbers...

According to the Department of Labor, in 1999 10.1 million people hourly workers made between $5.15 and $6.14 and hour.

69% of those workers were adults (20 and over)
60% women
45% full-time
33% were partents of children under 18

The current minimum wage is 5.15 hr.

So for those 45% who work full time, before taxes they would make a grand:

$41.20 a day
$206 a week
$10,712 a year

My that's lavish.

Now, let's say that we lived in Los Angeles...

You need shelter. Go find an appartment, if you could one in a an area where you didn't get robbed, killed, raped, whatever in LA for:

$500 a month = $6000 a year

You gots to have food, so you eat light, say $50 a week = $2,600

You have to drive your car into the dynamic wealth producing areas, cause you sure as heck can't live there...say $20 a week on gas...that comes to $1040.

Ok, we're already at $9640 of your before taxes $10,712.

You don't have a computer (too expensive, so you can't learn new skills easily), you have no uplifting entertainment (too expensive, so you watch Springer on the TV...that learns ya real well), you don't go to school (too expensive and too little time after working 40 hours a week...and your second job cause you had to pay for new tires on you car that blew out on the road), I hope you have car insurance in California, very bad if you don't...

Meanwhile the dynamic wealth producing Americans, who have to have someone's back to break to do the labor are what, yachting?

You bet the minimum wage is a point against the Republicrats, they should be fighting for a Living Wage.

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

In short, it could perhaps be the ultimate demonstration of Dubya's raw stupidity caught on videotape. It was so bloody funny my English teacher taped it and showed it to our class.

My vote would be with Gore. Bush is a conservative whose decisions are driven by ideology and special interests groups alone. On the other hand, Gore, stick up ass and all, does have a brain and does exercise it in making his decisions.

And he can open his eyes when he speaks, which is a plus.

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 

What you may mistakenly think about Bush's lack of intelligence is your problem. His ideas work. Gore's don't. And Gore lies about it, on top of that.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

"Gee, I guess we should just want people to work for free. That way the owner gets to keep everything! Yeah!!"

Well, this is going to consign this thread to the fires of... oh, you know, that forum below this one? But frankly, I don't care. It was on its way there, anyway, and I will not stand for someone twisting my words, especially when it's based on nothing more than liberal lies told when trying to demonize the Republican party.

*ahem*

I never said this. I never said anything like this. I never even remotely indicated that I might believe this, at least not in the eyes of any rational person. If you think I or ANYONE else believes this, Jay, then you are a complete imbecile.

"...it's all far game ladies and gentlefolk. And you can thank the Clinton haters for it."

Again, you are a blithering imbecile, Jay. The only thing that conservatives have conserned themselves with in this campaign are the things that matter: character and issues. What Gore may or may not have done in the past is irrelevant, short of criminal activity, or anything that calls his stance on issues or his character into question. It's you liberals that want to dig up every little thing that someone may have done. I challenge you to give me ONE example. Just ONE.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

I'm sorry, but he's an idiot. Need we bring up Dubya's SAT scores?
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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations

[This message has been edited by The_Tom (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

Is it? I mean, sure, it's useful to know, but I wouldn't say it's a key issue until Canada does something to bring itself to attention.

"I'm sorry, but he's an idiot. Need we bring up Dubya's SAT scores?"

IIRC, they weren't spectacular, but certainly above average. Then again, mine were higher. Should I be a presidential candidate too?

In the meantime, I think this is Flameboard material.

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

Think hard now...real hard...like both hamsters working at the same time kinda hard...I attack your argument with sarcasm. Not a twisted Omega word in my whole post. I checked. No " " (that's quotes in case you weren't sure....not a single

quote:

---

Quote

---

neither. So there is no need to go all 'you've offended my southern honor' here. When I qoute you, you'll sure know about it.

Go out and call your dogs names as you're kicking them for being too liberal. Or, if it makes you feel better, throw your hampster at the wall cause it wears a 'Gore In 2000' button...but keep that name calling sort of crap to your petty little self.

You, you....conservative!!

Now, some of the crap you said that I will put quotes around.

quote:

---

The vast majority of these jobs are held by people who are either just entering the work force, or people looking for a little extra cash.

---

So, the Labor Department was just fibbing when it said that 60% of people working for below $6.15 were "adults." And I just imagine that the 67 year old guy working at the local drive through window, passing out burgers is doing it for "a little extra cash." One can only push cat food so far in a diet these days.

Meaningless eh? I want to call you a self-absorbed little son of something, but heeding my own admonishment above, I'll just say I want to.

Numbers certainly do mean something. They mean something to me, cause I have to pay rent, buy food, and do all those other things to live. For people who make minimum wage, it's not about if I can buy a second house in San Diego next year...or if the wife needs a second car to go with the Sport Ute...it's about whether my kid gets a new pair of shoes cause the other ones are worn out...or if I take myself to the doctor cause I've been caughing for 2 weeks and Burger Hut doesn't have insurance to go with those fries.

These numbers aren't meaningless for all those people you seem to want to live in a cardboard box on Los Angeles street. For every person driving a sport ute on L.A. there are numbers of people who wash the car (to keep the dainty executive fingers clean) and who wash the utensils in the back of the Southern Cusine Wraps place who make minimum wage.

You seem to think that there is an entrepreneur behind every tree...well that's all well and good, but tell me Sweet Cheeks, who's going to do your back breaking labor for you...wash your dishes when it 100 outside or dig your ditches in the sun??? Whoever it is sure as heck had better get a bigger share of the take than $5.15 an hour.

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

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"And as we all know, a mesolytic quantumvector resonator is commonly
used to polarize isogravitic plasma-flux manifolds."

Starfleet Academy's Redshirt Guide to the Starfleet, 62nd edition,
2376.
 

Now, here in Canada, minimum wage is $5.75/h, but you all know how much the Canadian dollar is worth these days Fortunately, for the labour I do, my boss pays me $8/h, which is very generous of him.

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"Weirdness doesn't frighten me. Ten-foot-tall purple wombats with shaving-cream-covered broadswords singing 'Kumbayah'... Now, that scares me..."
-Tim Nix

[This message has been edited by Fabrux (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

Omega, do you work part-time? Will you have to work part time, or are mummy and daddy paying for your education, clothes, nights out, and university? Because those of us who had to work to get through college, and who have to work to get through university, are usually thrilled when the minimum wage goes up, because we get paid in real money, rather than beans. (And not even magic beans, natch).

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

And Los Angeles is not expensive; it's a chanllenge to keep yourself sane and alive!!!

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So why don't we make a little room in my BMW babe
Searching for some peace of mind
Hey I'll help you find it
I do believe that we are practicing the same religion
- from the song "Fastlove"
 

"Need we bring up Dubya's SAT scores?"

Need we bring up Gore's? Oh, wait. He refuses to release his academic records. I wonder why...

"Knowing the name of the leader of your nation's largest trading partner is not trivia, it's a basic requirement."

Like heck it is. You can even converse with someone all day without knowing their name. I know. I've done it. Dealing with foreign affairs should be a lot simpler. Besides, what does the man's name matter? That's like asking me who actually first proposed the minimum wage, and then when I can't tell you, assuming I'm unqualified to talk about it. It doesn't matter who did. It's still a bad idea. And when he starts having conversations with the man, all he has to do is find out his name.

Go ask Al what he thinks of the English lord Earl Gray and see what he says.

Jay:

"So, the Labor Department was just fibbing when it said that 60% of people working for below $6.15 were "adults.""

Adult defined as being twenty and over. Do you have any idea how many college students work at fast food restaraunts? As for the non-students, how long were they working there? You make assumptions without all the facts.

"And I just imagine that the 67 year old guy working at the local drive through window, passing out burgers is doing it for "a little extra cash.""

Likely, yes. That man would be recieving social security, have all his medical bills paid by the government, and probably has some sort of retirement fund from a previous career. For all you know, he was just looking for something to do with his time. Again, assumption without fact behind it.

"Numbers certainly do mean something."

Only when used properly, and everything is taken into account. Something you don't do.

"These numbers aren't meaningless for all those people you seem to want to live in a cardboard box on Los Angeles street."

Again, you are twisting my words, you twit. I never even REMOTELY implied that I wanted this. Stop making such radical assumptions, or you simply reduce yourself to a specticle.

"who's going to do your back breaking labor for you...wash your dishes when it 100 outside or dig your ditches in the sun??? Whoever it is sure as heck had better get a bigger share of the take than $5.15 an hour."

Then they can demand more money. The only way that that wouldn't work is if there are actually people out that that CAN live off that. Or you're completely off like I'm saying, and very few people actually live off of minimum wage.

Liam:

"Omega, do you work part-time?"

No, but I'm hoping to get a job soon, preferably at the library that's opening near my house this December.

"Will you have to work part time, or are mummy and daddy paying for your education, clothes, nights out, and university?"

You, too, make vast assumptions. I homeschool, which has a relatively low overhead. My clothing needs are simple (I love those $5 tee-shirts from Sam's), so that's not a problem. I don't have very many "nights out", but my parents usually pay for what little they cost (most of them are church-related). And when I go to college, I can easily get a great scholarship (scored a 33 on my ACT, and I'm just entering my Jr. year). But since it probably won't be a FULL scholarship, I do intend to pay for what of it I can.

"those of us who had to work to get through college, and who have to work to get through university, are usually thrilled when the minimum wage goes up, because we get paid in real money"

Still, assuming that you can FIND a job after the minimum wage goes up. Again, you ignore that any increase in wage controls simply eliminates jobs.

Michael:

Why do you say "recovering"? Just curious.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Gore is a freaking' traitor. Let's accept millions of dollars from Red China! Yeah, that's the ticket! Then, let's cover it up and deny we knew anything about it if we get caught! Yeah, that's it! He's also just as much of a daddy's boy as Bush. His daddy was also an obscenely wealthy Senator from Tennessee, who helped his 'lil man into politics. Man of the people, my a--!!! He's also got all the personality of a '78 Buick on the rustpile, and walks like he's got a stick shoved up his butt. Anyone who saw a certain Celebrity Deathmatch knows what I'm talking about.

Bush is too simplistic and superficial, and simply not experienced enough to be president. Enough being governor of a large state like Texas doesn't qualify him in foriegn affairs. Look at the last two presidents we've had whose highest experience level was governor, Clinton and Carter, and the messes they've caused with their innefective leadership(I'm not counting Reagan here, because he was extremely active in the Republcian heirarchy for decades, worked with/for Republican administrations, and was well versed enough with the nuances of politics to actually get things done. Even the democratic leaders of the 1980s like Tip O'Neill grudgingly agreed with that). Sometimes I think he's just reading the Republican sript verbatim, and not really understanding what he's actually saying.

I wish McCain was running, but he isn't so I'll probably vote for Nader. A wasted vote? Perhaps. But, my conscience will be clear.

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Everything in life I ever needed to know I learned from The Simpsons.
 

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

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"Do you know how much YOU'RE worth??.....2.5 million Woolongs. THAT'S your bounty. I SAID you were small fry..." --Spike Spiegel

quote:

---

Education

Teacher salaries at beginning of 1st term - 36th (1)

Teacher salaries at beginning of 2nd term - 38th (1)

% Change in Average Salaries 1987-97 constant -5.4%

Teacher salaries plus benefits - 50th (1)

High school completion rate - 46th (2)

Bush Family Values:

Highest number of children living in poverty - 2nd (3)

Highest number of children without health insurance - 2nd (3)

Highest % of children without health insurance - 1st (3)

Highest % of poor working parents without insurance - 1st (3)

Highest % of population without health insurance - 2nd (3)

Highest Teen Birth Rate - 5th (4)

Per capita funding for public health - 48th (4)

Delivery of social services - 47th (4)

Mothers receiving prenatal care - 45th (9)

Teen smoking - down nationally, flat in Texas (5)

Teen drug use - down nationally, up in Texas (5)

Pollution:

Pollution released by manufacturing plants - 1st (6)

Pollution by industrial plants in violation of

Clean Air Act - 1st (6)

Greenhouse gas emissions - 1st (6)

Quality of Life:

Spending for parks and recreation - 48th (7)

Spending for the arts - 48th (7)

Public libraries and branches - 46th (8)

Spending for the environment - 49th (7)

Best place to raise children - 48th (9)

-------
Sources:
(1) National Education Agency
(2) U.S. Department of Education Office of Educational Research and Development
(3) U.S. Census Bureau, Current Populations Trends
(4) U.S. Dept. Health and Human Services National Center for Health Statistics
(5) 1998 Texas School Survey of Substance Use Among Students: Grades 7-12, Texas Commission on Alcohol and Drug Abuse
(6) U.S. EPA, Office of Pollution and Prevention
(7) Texas Observer
(8) Statistical Rankings by State
(9) Children's Rights Council

---

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

quote:

---

The only way that that wouldn't work is if there are actually people out that that CAN live off that.

---

How DARE you TWIST and COTORT my words!!! Who are you to bend them so severely out of shape!!!! You Gibbon Faced Sartorial Skulker! Not a fact nor shread of fact inhabits your entire argument!!!

And that's basicly what you've come down to?

So far in this argument, you've called me:

"a complete imbecile"

"a blithering imbecile" (how the two are different, I'd still like to know)

a "liberal" (proud to wear that one)

a "twit"

and a "specticle" (which I assume you meant to spell spectacle. which is "something that can be seen or viewed, especially something of a remarkable or impressive nature" hmm)

Well, you keep trying there kiddie, some day you will get it right. Maybe you could have to mom and dad school district buy you a dictionary of slang.

As to my argument, I believe that Labor comes first. Labor is made up of the people you want to do the crap jobs for nothing while someone eles lounges in their pool. Would you like fries with that?

Now you can go on with your name-calling-laced vacuous tirades and try to convince me that the privledged whould stay that way while the rest of us continue to struggle for rent money and hope to goodness that we don't get sick....really sick.

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

Tom:

Yet again, using numbers without taking everything into account. As Frank points out, you don't list how things were BEFORE Bush took office. Polution may be bad relative to the other states, but it's shown one of the greatest reduction levels of any of them this decade, and Bush was in office for most of it. Just an example. Get back to me when you have a real point.

Jay:

"How DARE you TWIST and COTORT my words!!! Who are you to bend them so severely out of shape!!!! You Gibbon Faced Sartorial Skulker! Not a fact nor shread of fact inhabits your entire argument!!!"

So you grab a completely random sentence from my post, start ranting about it, and nitpick my spelling. And you think you have a point?

"how the two are different, I'd still like to know"

Did I say they were different?

"Labor is made up of the people you want to do the crap jobs for nothing while someone eles lounges in their pool."

You base this on what, again? Give me one quote that even remotely implies that I think this, or stop making the accusation, oh thou of little nous.

I think I'm going to adopt my philosophy from the Cuba debate permanantly. If you say something that means absolutely nothing (like the above), I'm going to act like you never said it. At first, when I started dealing with your irrationality, I felt like that little boy on Christmas, saying "There's gotta be a horse in here somewhere!" but I'm beginning to become disilusioned.

And you might note that "spectacle" is also defined as "and object of curiosity or contempt," by Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 21, 2000).]
 

Omega:

"If you get really sick, go to the emergency room. By law, you have to receive treatment, pay or no."

Oh, yeah, there's the best medical treatment going. It is great for breaks and oh, say a general "emergency"
but if you can stratch those two pieces of firewood you have for a brain together long enough to make a spark and consider another meaning of "really sick."

Before you TWIST my words words again I'll spell it out for you...cancer, tuberculosis or something long term and very very expensive to treat. The emergency room will refer you out and we'll see how long you last on minimum wage.

Top CEOs are making 415 times the entry wage in their own company. You know what it was in 1940? 12. 1980? 40. Now, 415. So I'll go ask some of the people I see on Los Angeles Street how they feel about economic stratification...you seem to be very clear on the subject.

OH NO, I MAY HAVE TWISTED A WORD BY MAKING AN INFERENCE!!!

Tough.

You make arguments, I draw conclusions. If you don't want conclusions drawn from what you say then shut up. Don't go whining about words being twisted and all that. Oh, and just to be clear, the part above about the "Before you TWIST my..." was sardonic.

CRYSTAL CLEAR SECTION FOLLOWS

Point of discussion involves sub paragraph 1, section 4, article III...

Economic Stratification

END CRYSTAL CLEAR SECTION

I'm just hoping that is clear enough for you Omega. I do however look forward to seeing which sentence you are going to cut and paste.

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

But what I wanted to say, hopefully without disturbing anyone too much, is that I had a dream once where TMBG was playing at my inauguration. I'm not entirely sure what I was being inaugurated as.

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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
--
Ambrose Bierce
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! It's useless to struggle.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Omega, no matter what Jay's opinions are, you're the one losing respect when you start calling names.

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"Poetic souls delight in prose insane."
--Lord Byron
 

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So why don't we make a little room in my BMW babe
Searching for some peace of mind
Hey I'll help you find it
I do believe that we are practicing the same religion
- from the song "Fastlove"
 

------------------
"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations
 

"Omega, he is still recovering because he still has to fight the urges he has, even though it has been years since he did the hard-core drugs."

We're talking about BUSH, here? GEORGE W. Bush, governer of Texas, son of George H.W. Bush? It's about the only thing that fits your posts, but I'm still kinda surprised. There is absolutely NO evidence that he ever used drugs. There are no WITNESSES to him using drugs. Heck, no one ever even made a real accusation. It's just something the media cooked up to try and destroy him. Not that it matters, as polls show that most people couldn't care less if he (or Gore, for that matter) had used drugs thirty years ago or not.

Tom:

"Well, even if Texas was dead last in most of those categories, I wouldn't consider it anything but a failure if in eight years Bush couldn't get them any better than a whole pile of 48ths and 47ths."

Never use numbers that are dependant upon other, unknown variables to make a point. It doesn't follow that just because the state is in 47th RELATIVE to the other states, that it hasn't improved all that much.

And I think he's only been governer since '94.

Ziyal:

"McDonald's still needs so many burger-flippers and cashiers. We'd more likely get a price increase."

Not if the owner of that particular franchise couldn't afford the increased wages (a dollar an hour for twenty people really adds up). Then he'd more likely close the establishment, and you'd all be out of a job.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Couple points of order:

1. In a union of 50 states, SOMEBODY has to be first, and somebody HAS to be last. It's a false example, like saying "AIEE! 50% of students scored below average!!" Yeah, and the other 50% above. That's what averages are.

So, a ranking means very little if the spread isn't much. If the top salary is, say, 34K, and the lowest salary is 32K, that's only a difference of 2K.

So what's the spread?

2: I don't know about other places, but the library I work at pays its staff a certain percentage above minimum wage, in order to remain competitive. Now, in some organizations, that may be just great. But in a place on a pretty-much-fixed budget, a raise in one area necessarily requires a drop in some other area.

And since minimum wage STILL isn't the same as a living wage, raising it really doesn't have much of an effect on anybody's quality of life, outside of students with no other source of support, anyway.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

And it's nice, because it means you actually have a chance of getting one day a week off.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

quote:

---

I respond with the statement that they do no such thing, in that jobs are simply eliminated to make up for the increased pay. Your answer is...?

---

I disagree.

quote:

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Not if the owner of that particular franchise couldn't afford the increased wages (a dollar an hour for twenty people really adds up). Then he'd more likely close the establishment, and you'd all be out of a job.

---

Bold pronouncement. And if there is still a profit, albeit a smaller one, in it the selling of burgers to Lower Schmoeville residents? Owner person just up and quits? Bad business move that.
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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 22, 2000).]
 

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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000

 

And George II has probably vaccumed enough blow to keep an entire Real World cast high for months. Well, maybe not Hawaii.

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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
--
Ambrose Bierce
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! It's useless to struggle.

"I disagree."

*L*

OK, WHY do you disagree?

"And if there is still a profit, albeit a smaller one, in it the selling of burgers to Lower Schmoeville residents? Owner person just up and quits?"

OK, let's see here. Say that a McDonalds has ten people working at any given time (just a nice, round number). These places are probably open eighteen hours a day. So that's $180 less profit per day, assuming a $1 per hour wage increase. That works out to $63,000 a year. Just for the sake of argument, let's say fifty thousand. Now, these places operate on budgets. Where's that money going to come from? There aren't going to be that many unbudgeted dollars.

Hypothetical train of thought of a fast food franchise owner: "So I need fifty grand. Where am I going to get that out of the budget? Maybe we can forget getting that intercom that actually makes voices intelligable. We don't HAVE to pave the parking lot, do we? No, I guess we really do. Well, we could always fire a couple people. That'd make up for most of the losses. Oh, wait, we're running with a minimal staff as it is. I suppose I could raise prices, but then I'd do less business, and I'd be right back where I started. I could take it out of my own salary, but then I'd be better off selling the land to those people that want to build condos, and going back to whatever I was doing before. I'd be making less money here than I would be there."

Under any circumstances, jobs are eliminated. This leads to more of that "economic stratification" you're so worried about. Two classes: those that have the well-paying part time jobs, and those that don't have a job at alll; instead of a larger, combined class of those that have a reasonable-paying part time job.

Sol:

"And George II has probably vaccumed enough blow to keep an entire Real World cast high for months."

And again, your evidence being?

And he's not George II, or George Jr. Funny thing, how the media keep calling him "Jr." when he's not a junior, and his opponent IS "Albert Arnold Gore, Jr."

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

His daddy's Georgie...he's a Georgie...it seems to me like he's a jun'r...

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"What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
- Dave Barry

 

Who does care if George snorted a bit in his time? It means nothing.

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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
 

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Frank's Home Page
"And on a wholly unrelated note, I went to high school with Fidel Castro. So there." - Simon Sizer
 

You da bomb.

Omega:

As for my non agreement, you have given me no reason to agree. You get to do the digging this time...and I get to stand on the sidelines and snipe.

quote:

---

There aren't going to be that many unbudgeted dollars.

---

Your evidence being?

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 23, 2000).]
 

Secondly, he's George II to me because he's the second George. If and when Jeb runs for president, he'll be George III. I can hardly imagine what that non sequitor will do to you.

Hmm...George P. Bush vs. Karenna Gore in 2012 or thereabouts, anyone?

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Conservative, n. A statesman who is enamored of existing evils, as distinguished from the Liberal, who wishes to replace them with others.
--
Ambrose Bierce
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! It's useless to struggle.

Or the worst memories in the world.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

We've been through this before, Daryus. Again, exactly what do you suggest we do for these poor? Give me a comprehensive solution. Then get back to me.

I do agree that it means nothing if he did drugs that long ago, as does most of the population. But I won't stand for false accustaions.

Jay:

Me: "There aren't going to be that many unbudgeted dollars."

You: "Your evidence being?"

OK, rephrase: there aren't going to be that many unbudgeted dollars EVERYWHERE. There ARE going to be some stores that close because they can't handle the costs. There ARE going to be jobs destroyed. This you CAN NOT deny.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

:P

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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000

Move along...

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 24, 2000).]
 

And then there's the fact that just because a person on a tight budget has a LITTLE extra money, they're not going to start blowing it on overpriced food, especially if the prices go up. Besides, increased prices and increased wages for the exact same things, isn't that called inflation?

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Women are demons who make men enter hell through the gates of paradise.

<a href="http://www.ozemail.com.au/~bsolway/witforwisdom.html#Foreword">Power Word</a>
 

Someone who's 67 years old will very likely have some sort of retirement package or at least social security. If not, there are a wide variety of federal, state, and local relief packages available to the elderly. Flipping burgers would be a bonus, providing the aid packages don't deduct whatever he's earning from what he's eligible for (some do, some don't).

Increasing the minimum wage does tend to drive inflation. Note how many times Alan Greenspan has increased the prime lending rate (incrementally, but frequently) to prevent inflation over the last several years.

[small]Drat! I just looked at the clock and I'd better get ready for work.[/small]

I'll get back to this later. Gotta go!

~~Baloo

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Beer lovers take note:
Stroh's spelled backwards is "shorts."

http://www.geocities.com/cyrano_jones.geo/

Ok then, someone has to tell me why the Republican proposed massive tax cuts the don't do the very same thing...only a different class of people get the immediate perk of the cash in the pockets AND the working poor are still dealing with the same issues and crime and it's expenses are still being paid for?

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

However, it seems to me that you're no better off yourself than the handfuls of morons you talk about.

Moron.

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"What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
- Dave Barry

 

As for your second paragraph, there were a couple spelling errors that make it kinda difficult to understand, but I'll take a stab at it. The "rich" (rich being defined as making more than $50 grand a year, and therefore not being a "working family", or so says Algore) would get the largest tax cut (cash-wise; the "poor" are actually getting a larger break percentage-wise) because they're the only ones paying any significant taxes to begin with! (The death tax comes to mind.) And when the people (ANY people) have more money in their pockets, they're more likely to buy a, say, McDonald's, and create jobs, thus helping the "poor". Not to mention increasing tax revenue, as in the 80's. It's called trickle-down theory. Look it up.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 25, 2000).]
 

quote:

---

couple spelling errors that make it kinda difficult to understand

---

LOL!!!

petty little boy...

As to you other balderdash...

The trickle-down theory trickled down Ronald Reagan's pants legs and into his shoes cause that's all it's worth. You might want to investigate two thing in correlation (you might need to go to a library for this one), your above theory and the Great Depression.

And still, you've given me no real reason why putting money into the hands of the working poor brings about inflation and how putting money into the hands of everyone above them via tax cuts does not.

You keep trying though.

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 25, 2000).]

forgot a part in that second paragraph...dern my eyes.

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 25, 2000).]
 

Ah, is THAT what you were asking? Oh, well, then...

Again, you're looking at things WAY to simplisticly. You're not just talking about putting money in the hands of the workers. You're talking about forcing the OWNER to put HIS money in the hands of the workers. He's got to get the money somewhere, thus higher prices, thus inflation.

Whereas if you put money in the hands of the rich (and the poor, but for the sake of this argument... and it's really just not taking it in the first place, but again...), they create jobs, thus lowering unemployment. I don't think that'd affect inflation (I don't start my economics course for another week or so), but lower unemployment is always good.

The rest of your post was drivel, and shall be ignored as such.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 25, 2000).]
 

Giving people more of their earned money back does give them more money, but it's different than increasing the wage. Workers get more money, but it isn't coming from the employer, its just being taxed less. The employer isn't saddled with paying more to their workers, so prices don't need to go up.

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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000

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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.

 

You're falling prey to another liberal falacy: that which states that the best solution to any problem is to throw money at it. In New Jersey, they're spending $9,000 per student, per year. Lack of money is not the problem. Therefore, taking money away will not increase the problems, to a certain extent. Not that we're suggesting actually cutting budgets in the first place...

And when our soldiers have to subsist on food stamps, we certainly don't need to cut the military budget.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited August 26, 2000).]
 

quote:

---

'The last thing we need right now is a big tax cut' because it will overheat the economy, declared Steven A. Roach, chief economist of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter & Co., the big New York investment house.

---

Los Angeles Times, A1, 26 August 2000.

Danm, I hate those liberal media guys reporting on what those money guys on Wall Street are saying.

Omega:

You can ignore it all you want to, but your trickle down theory FAILED. Oh my how it failed. Fantastically failed to not only prevent the Great Depression and to stop the Great Depression once it got started.

I'll point this out too (even though making points to you is like entering a Sloth in a marathon and hoping for victory)...

There are two main arguments running through the anti-living wage folks here:

• jobs will be lost because of the minimum wage
  
• the minimum wage should not be raised because it is inflationary

These are contradictory. Any policy that will cause jobs to be lost, as you assure me they will, is by its very nature deflationary.

quote:

---

I'll agree that raising the standard of living for the poor reduces crime, etc. What's your point? I've shown that increasing the minimum wage does NOT increase the standard of living for anyone.

---

I see stay at home school district still teaches the class on double speak.

"I've shown..." blah blah blah.

First of all you've proven nothing of the kind. Not in this thread or in anyother thread.

Now as to crime and the standard of living. You can't honestly be telling me that you believe that by putting money into the hands of the working poor will not trend down crime? And as crime goes down (I think we can all agree that it is a major social ill that darned crime rate) then society can reduce such social spending on police and and a whole litany of other things.

The standard of living does go up cause, now check this out now, now that crime is down business can move into the community with jobs. Not crud jobs like flipping big macs, but good jobs.

And since society ceases paying to placate social ills and has actually done something to fix them, oh my, taxes come down!

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited August 26, 2000).]
 

Listen I have years and years of built up rage from taking shit from idiots like you. What are you, like 12? Go play with your crack-whore mom.

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

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Oh, fiddle faddle, everyone knows that our mutants have flippers. Oops, I've said too much.....
~C. Montgomery Burns
 

Amadeus, cut the petty shit or I'll have you banned. Have a nice day.

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"...I was just up in Canada, Toronto actually. You know, they really hate you guys [Americans] up there? The funny thing is, they think you hate them back, when in fact, you just couldn't be bothered to care. Now in Ireland, it's a different story. At least we had the common decency to wait until the English invaded before we started hating them. I guess the Canadians are hating you in advance..."
-Irish Comic Ed Byrne on Canada-US relations

 

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

And since the economy of the 1980-90's, the longest period of sustained economic growth in US history, was largely driven by Reaganomics (ick, I didn't even LIKE Reagan) I'd say that MODERN trickle-down worked fairly well, whereas the 1993 Democratic Congress's largest tax hike in history is what threatened to bog it down.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

I'm always curious at why liberals breathe a sigh of relief when the economy slows down. I'm also curious why liberals seem to think that the economy can't take care of itself. See below about the Fed trying to slow down the economy and causing the Depression.

"There are two main arguments running through the anti-living wage folks here:

jobs will be lost because of the minimum wage

the minimum wage should not be raised because it is inflationary

These are contradictory. Any policy that will cause jobs to be lost, as you assure me they will, is by its very nature deflationary."

Old-style economics. What was that, the Keynsian curve, or something? Whatever it was, it said that unemployment and inflation are mutually exclusive. It was wrong. Nixon imposed direct wage controls in the 70s. That's how we got that huge recession. We had high unemployment AND inflation. That's why no one fixed it until Regan came along. All they economics guys knew was that raising taxes caused one of the two, and that lowering taxes caused the other. They had no idea how to deal with both at the same time, since it wasn't supposed to be possible. Then along came that HUGE upper-class tax cut (thanks, Ronnie!), and the last couple decades of economic growth.

"You can ignore it all you want to, but your trickle down theory FAILED. Oh my how it failed. Fantastically failed to not only prevent the Great Depression and to stop the Great Depression once it got started."

Funny, I thought the GD was due to stupidity on the part of the banks, but mainly the Federal Reserve. It's generally not a good idea to inflate the money supply by 60% in ten years. It also tried to stop the stock market growth by raising intrest rates, which caused the crash in '29, thus leading to the depression. Funny thing, how the market was slowing down anyway...

"First of all you've proven nothing of the kind. Not in this thread or in anyother thread."

I've given a model that you have not refuted, nor can you refute, for it works. Tell me where the owner can get the money without harming the store, THEN you might have a point.

"You can't honestly be telling me that you believe that by putting money into the hands of the working poor will not trend down crime?"

Sure I can. If the money is worth less, then the extra money will do no good. You're also making the assumption that crime is a DIRECT result of poverty. An assumption that I do no agree with. That whole "Poor people commit crime to survive" thing, it... it just makes no sense.

Since the rest of your argument is based on that flawed premise, it is not valid.

Besides, when was the last time liberals lowered taxes, just because the government didn't need the money? We've got that huge surplus, meaning money that the government DOES NOT NEED, and they claim that they do. The money would just get spent on something else.

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Creator of Project Phoenix
[email protected]

What do you mean i should shut up. Of course people like civility. No i think you should shut up. That's right you heard me. i'll pretend i didn't hear that. What are you doing now. Take your hands off of me. STAY AWAY FROM ME!! You can't do that, I HAVE RIGHTS YOU KNOW, leave me alone. Ouch, that hurt. What do you mean i'm a cry baby? Ouch, stop that. That's not funny. Hey, quit it. This is getting needlessly mess, OW. Hey cattle prods aren't toys. No, i am not doped up on painkillers.

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"Life sucks, then you die"

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"Incest! A game the whole family can play!"
-Jonah Rapp
 

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

Whoa, man, I'm sorry, I didn't know 'moron' meant "harry assed cum sucking pig fucker" in your language. Because it's not raally a big insult in mine.

I just responded in kind to your generalization of 'the morons' that inhabit the world.

Perhaps you should seek counselling if someone you'll never meet, who has absolutely no importance in your life, with a handle from a 1980's children cartoon about giant robots can upset you.

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"What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
- Dave Barry

 

And having finally seen Beast Machines, I am overjoyed that Jetstorm sounds like Vegita. Er, Vegita when he was voiced by Brian Dobson that is. Because Jetstorm's voiced by Brain Dobson. Not now though. Now everyone sound pants. Although Goku and Vegita sound less pants than everyone else. Guy-who-was-Rhinox sounds awful. As does Krillen.

Er, go democrats. Or republicans. Either one's good.

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"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy

 

I would argue that the minimum wage would tend to be inflationary, but that it is also a matter of degree. Obviously if you raised it by 20 dollars an hour, there'd be economic disruption. Raising the minimum wage by two dollars an hour would not be harmful, nor would the resulting slight inflation cancel out the extra money the workers got. Minimum wage workers are after all less than 10 percent of the workforce.

Mostly, the money wouldn't come out of the pockets of employers. They'd pass it on to consumers, since no individual minimum-wage dependent business like a burger place would be at a competitive disadvantage. All the other burger places would also have to raise wages. So you'd have a slight price increase. (as I recall when you buy a big mac, something like 10 percent of the price is the labor cost).

So what you'd end up with is not a transfer of wealth from employers. What'd you'd have is a slight redistribution of wealth from the the population as a whole, to minimum-wage workers.

There is nothing sinister about this. First, capitalism itself was built on a huge redistribution of wealth by force. That's how the world works. Second, when businesses pay extremely low wages, they are "socializing" their profits. That is, the public is subsidizing their cheap labor through the tax costs of the social-welfare state (low income health care, police, etc). Take away the social welfare state? Well, that's a whole other argument, but I would just say: be careful what you wish for.

The last point I'd make is that when adjusted for inflation, the minimum wage today is lower than it was in the 1960s. Employers are hardly a bunch of oppressed victims.

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"Life sucks, then you die"

 

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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"Life sucks, then you die"

 

Notice, "I FEEL". No logic. No rational explaination. No emperical evidence. You just FEEL that he's less stupid. Just like a lot of people FEEL like Gore cares more, or that he loves the teachers more. There's no reason behind it. Heck, Bush MARRIED a teacher. Why don't we judge these people on how effective they'd be as president, based on their stated ideas (and how well those ideas can be trusted, of course)? Sounds like a lot more effective way to determine who to vote for...

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Some presidents are just THERE. They don't all have to be great. No one ever says, "DAMN, that Millard Fillmore was the cat's ass!" or "This sorta shit would NEVER happen if Rutherford B. Hayes was around t'kick some ass!"

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"There are three things I HATE, Jet: kids..pets..& women with attitudes. So WHY do we have all THREE on BOARD?!?"--Spike Spiegel

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw

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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000

But if you really want to get into the way certain cantidates make you feel...