"The only time the trickle down effect works, is when you have a leaky roof".
I thought it was an absolute gem, and had to be shared. Of course, I agree. How aboot you?
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
meanwhile...
CEO buys new yacht.
People must be hired to maintain, pilot, etc. that yacht. These people profit as well.
OR...
Taxes go up.
Business which can no longer afford to pay taxes, and still make viable profit, closes doors, lays off workers. New companies cannot afford to start up whilst simultaneously paying new higher taxes.
Workers go on welfare, unemployment, or what-have-you government program, thus becoming dependent on Government.
Government pays for these programs through taxing the rest of us even more.
Downward cycle continues.
I dunno, seems pretty simple which one works to me...
This example is most obvious in Southwestern Pennsylvania since the steel mills closed. Communities without industrial and commercial development DRY UP and DIE. Apathy and crime rise, as does welfare dependence. Almost no new high-employment businesses start up, because of the combination of high taxes, worker apathy, and crime.
I mean, the biggest employer in this area right now is &%$ing TELEMARKETERS, for Chris's sake.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
I said nothing about taxes.
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
The rich are wealthy, generally because they do the things which generate the most wealth, and kep a percentage of it fr their own use.
The flawed assertion, generally made by the opposition, is that the rich hoard money. They don't. They generally hoard STUFF. But they pay for that stuff, thus circulating money, rather than keeping it.
If you go and buy a CD, who has the money, you or the CD store? Do they keep that money? No, it spreads around: to the employees, the music company, the distributor, the store itself, the artist, etc. (If you live in a state with sales tax, part goes to the government, too.) And THEY spread it around, buying THEIR stuff. It's the butterfly effect. If you choke it off at any one point, it affects the rest.
Since the wealthy possess more money, they naturally are able to purchase more expensive stuff, and a larger volume of stuff, thus driving the wealth engine.
To use an analogy, think of it as an aorta. Blood goes through the aorta, to the major arteries, to the minor arteries, to the capillaries, to the cells. Every cell gets enough blood that way. But block off an artery, or worse, the aorta...
*Hm! That's a new metaphor.. the human body works according to the trickle down theory. I may have to keep that.*
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
How does one fit liberal deficit spending into this?
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Maybe like the adrenal glands... you seem to pump faster and stronger for a little while, but you more than pay for it later. And if you KEEP pumping adrenaline, the body burns out and you die.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
Ready for the action now, Dangerboy
Ready if I'm ready for you, Dangerboy
Ready if I want it now, Dangerboy?
How dare you, dare you, Dangerboy?
How dare you, Dangerboy?
I dare you, dare you, Dangerboy...
�on Flux, "Thanatophobia"
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
"A rising tide does not lift all boats"
Now I understand the basis on Tax Cuts. I also agree that some measure of tax cuts should be implemented. But I do not like a tax cut that makes life total hell for the poor and the less fortunate.
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
And a rising tide DOES lift all boats, so long as the passengers themselves haven't knocked a hole in the bottom.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
As I said before, any tax cut must not be on the backs of the lower class. Ontario's tax cut was done when it was in poor, but recovering financial shape. The U.S. tax cuts are being done at a time of prosperity, which I am not arguing against.
Omega: If you know about waves and tides, you'll know that a rising wave is accompanied by a depression in the water level. So as many boats are being lifted, others are sinking. This is clearly what happened here in Toronto.
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited September 10, 2000).]
I think that's were the two-trillion dollar projected surplus comes in. Then you have to factor in the economic growth that would inevitably follow...
"If you know about waves and tides, you'll know that a rising wave is accompanied by a depression in the water level."
Yeah, far away from shore. Thus low tide on the opposite side of the ocean. But under any circumstances, the analogy doesn't hold that far. It's just that "A rising water level lifts all boats" doesn't quite have the same flow to it...
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
------------------
Where's the bathroom on this ship?
Pun intentional?
------------------
"It's like the Star of David or something. But without the whole Judaism thing."
-Frank Gerratana, 17-Aug-2000
"It bothers me that the entirety of American politics is currently engaged with figuring out how to spend money that, in all likelyhood, simply doesn't exist."
How do you figure? Just curious. I mean, we have the numbers. Assuming all things remain constant (meaning no democrats running congress with their pork-barrel spending, or Gore raising taxes and screwing the economy over, or other such things), the surplus should materialize as projected.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
By the way, you finance a welfare system by charging marginal rates of tax that increase per income bracket.
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
Part of it, yeah. If you guys down under want to be defenceless against agressors, that's your problem, but it's the duty of the federal government to defend the people of this country against external threats. Thus missile defence.
"Nowhere did I hear you say anything about increasing welfare."
Why would we? We've poured several trillion dollars into those programs since their inception, and we've still got similar poverty levels. Again, typical liberal thought. "Yeah, pour money into EVERY SINGLE well-intentioned program, and screw the fact that none of them actually work. That's because they need more money! Besides, they mean well..." Liberalism is rife with catch-22's like that. "Well, the reason socialism hasn't worked is because the right people weren't in charge," for instance, which simply results in more and more hells-on-earth being created like Cuba and the USSR, and nothing ever actually getting done.
You don't just change one minor thing hoping that it will change from no results whatsoever to a utopia. The world doesn't work like that. The reason things like public education are failing at their tasks isn't because they need more money: it's because the program is essentially flawed. Thus, change the program. This is what Bush advocates (vouchers, partial privatization, etc.), instead of Gore, who favors keeping the same failed systems, just heeping more tax burden onto the so-called "rich" to pay for it, and STILL not getting any results. So Bush wants to try something that has at least a chance of working, whereas Gore wants to keep doing things that have been proven NOT to work, and damaging the economy in the process.
So by the outdated definitions that you find everywhere, Bush is a liberal because he wants to change things, and Gore is a conservative because he wants to keep things the screwed-up way they are. Ironic.
"By the way, you finance a welfare system by charging marginal rates of tax that increase per income bracket."
This assumes that the government has the right to arbitrarily determine what a person's needs are. It has no such right, much less duty.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
I will hand the conservatives here in Ontario a tulip here. Ontario's financial picture is much better now than 5 years ago. All we had to do is do serious damage to education, health care, the environment, and kill off 50 or so people in the process (by having them drink poisoned water, dying in understaffed hospitals, or on the frigid cold nights on the street). One mess has been fixed, now we've got other messes to deal with.
While a tax cut would give some money back to the poor, the scope of the tax cut means that the money they get back is barely noticeable. You'd have to be making quite a decent wage to notice the difference on your tax bill. On top of that, cuts to certain programs have forced these programs to survive via User fees, something that has never been done before. So, instead of saving money, they are LOSING money by paying more for the programs that they depend on.
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
"The two trillion surplus is in the US. Not Ontario."
Obviously. I was talking about the US.
But from your description, a tax cut in Ontario was a very poorly executed idea. You don't cut by taking vital funds away from essential services. Now if you could make those services run just as well on less money, well, that's a different story.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Omega, in a nutshell....FUCK YOU.
YOU, sir, are merely & legally a CHILD. Until YOU PERSONALLY have had to be in a situation where you've needed to be on any form of government assistance, I suggest that you clam up your rhetoric-spewing NOISEHOLE for a while.
FOR THE RECORD: I am on both federal & state assistance. My benefits consist of a massive $512 a month from Social Security & $131 from CT Social Services; that's down from $243 a month from the state, because they found out that I lived with 3 other people YET SHARED NO EXPENSES & so they slashed my benefits in half--the result of "reforms" by a Republican governor, by the way. My rent is $315 a month for a single ROOM. My phone bill is routinely between the $35 for standard service & $60 if I can't pay all the $35 from the previous month. AOL costs me $22. THAT'S ALL MY EXPENDITURES. I cannot save money, though, because I live in the most expensive area in the contiguous 48 states; my food costs routinely hit $50 a week--FOR ONE PERSON.
I don't WANT to be in the system anymore. But I HAVE to be. I own no car...in an area that requires a car to survive. "Mass transit" is a joke here. Any job I take would have to be retail at the mall for minimum wage, which is like $6/hour here. BUT...the minute I GET a job, the SSA takes 50� on the dollar away from my benefits; the state services take an extra quarter. Therefore, for every dollar I make, I only REALLY have made a QUARTER. How am I supposed to get on my own that way?
I've dealed with both agencies many, many times. There is NO PROGRAM for helping people get OFF the system. There is no "3-month grace period" of not cutting benefits so that a person can save enough to become self-sufficient & therefore NOT be a burden to the populace. I found an area that I want to move to where apartments are cheap, jobs are (relatively) plentiful, where mass transit works well, where I can possibly even get an education. But there is no help, no sort of "relocation program" that I can get into that allows me to get that leg up. I'm caught in a limbo area; if I was a little bit higher, I wouldn't need to be on the system, but if I was a little lower & worse-off, I'd be eligible for more money & programs.
"Why would we [increase welfare]? We've poured several trillion dollars into those programs since their inception, and we've still got similar poverty levels. Again, typical liberal thought. 'Yeah, pour money into EVERY SINGLE well-intentioned program, and screw the fact that none of them actually work. That's because they need more money! Besides, they mean well...' Liberalism is rife with catch-22's like that."
Have you looked around at WHY there's "similar poverty levels?" A good reason is lack of education. I have no college degree. I have plenty of experience in many things, though, I'm considerably smarter than the average bear, & I learn extremely quickly. There's a college IN THE TOWN. I have asked both agencies about job training, about education programs. What I was told was that I'd be fighting for landscaping jobs with 12 guys named Raoul, or that there WAS job training available...but not anywhere I could GET TO. There USED to be said programs & classes available here...until the "Contract On America" in 1995.
"You don't just change one minor thing hoping that it will change from no results whatsoever to a utopia. The world doesn't work like that. The reason things like public education are failing at their tasks isn't because they need more money: it's because the program is essentially flawed. Thus, change the program. This is what Bush advocates (vouchers, partial privatization, etc.), instead of Gore, who favors keeping the same failed systems, just heeping [sic] more tax burden onto the so-called "rich" to pay for it, and STILL not getting any results. So Bush wants to try something that has at least a chance of working, whereas Gore wants to keep doing things that have been proven NOT to work, and damaging the economy in the process."
The REASON public education fails IS because the systems are flawed. The reason the systems are FLAWED is because no one wants to FUND them anymore. I came from a 3-town regional school district. It took forever to get a budget passed; Roxbury & Washington would run right on through approved. Then Bridgewater--my home, with its 70% elderly population--would smack it down over some piddly little bullshit thing. One year, it took TWENTY-THREE TRIES to pass the budget.
YES, things like welfare need to be changed...but draconian cuts is NOT the ANSWER, nor is privatization at any level or idiotic concepts like "vouchers" or "points." YES, there will ALWAYS be those who wish to sit on the system for eternity, being a drain. That's a given. But MOST people are like me--we WANT to better ourselves, but there are just a few too many obstacles...& it's fucking DISCOURAGING.
Oh, & I grew UP around your "so-called 'rich'"....there's nothing "so-called" ABOUT THEM. THEY ARE RICH. Would the day EVER come that I have to worry about hiding parts of my $300,000/year income from the government. Of course, given the situation I'm in right now, I probably WOULDN'T hide it.
"This assumes that the government has the right to arbitrarily determine what a person's needs are. It has no such right, much less duty."
That's how a fucking government WORKS, moron. Sampling from the all, averaging for the plan. You cannot nor SHOULD you expect "personalized political problem-solving" here or in any other country...well, maybe except in your wonderful Republic of Fantasia where the "undesirables" are kept in the Scrapyard, the homeless are swept into the sewers, the less-fortunate are stoned & told that they're there because they couldn't hack it & so have gotten what they deserved...all while the well-to-do putter around their glorious Tiphares sipping champagne, eating steak, & wondering if they should take their new $200,000 bonus & put it into a 3rd yacht or a 24th Lamborghini.
Here's a movie for you to go see...it's called "Metropolis."
"If you guys down under want to be defenceless against agressors, that's your problem, but it's the duty of the federal government to defend the people of this country against external threats. Thus missile defence."
Y'know...I love the military, too...but this is SO fucking absurd. The only ICBM threat to us anymore is CHINA...& if you knew ANYthing about Chinese philosophy, you'd know they'd NEVER first-strike. Try funnellignthat "national missile defense" money into something more productive...like, say, increasing the subsistence allowances for the families of servicemen stationed overseas.
------------------
"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
Understand this though. Under Bush's plan, you will, as well as everyone making less than $30,000 will pay literally no taxes. Those making $30,0000-$50,000 will pay very little taxes.
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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
I feel like quoting something from Frank Zappa's 1989 book:
"Politically, I consider myself to be a (don't laugh) Political Conservative. I want a smaller,less intrusive government, and lower taxes. What? You too?"
"Last tax season, I had a discussion with (the wildly amusing) Gary Iskowitz and (the utterly fascinating) Bob Kahan. Gary used to be the chief of the IRS audit division in Maryland and Washington, D.C., and Bob is one of the few decent Los Angeles attorneys."
"Gary was providing the laughs with a recitation of Reagan's description of our new tax laws: 'Equity, simplicity and fairness.' [Insert chart of how long it takes to prepare your tax return here]"
"This eventually led to a discussion of a paper Gary wrote in college, about what would happen if the U.S. income tax were removed, and replaced with a national sales tax on all goods and services. Here're a few points he made (my [Zappa's --Ed.] paraphrasing:"
"[1] We'd save a fortune on the yearly budget of the IRS itself. The sales tax could be administered with approximately five percent of the current IRS staff."
"[2] Because people would be taxed only when they spent money, the entire economy would get a boost as people received more of an incentive to earn money."
"[3] Certain folks who always seem to avoid paying taxes (defense contractors and church-owned businesses, for example) would be allowed to make a glowing debut as Major Stars of the U.S. tax base."
"[4] Drug dealers don't file tax returns, but they do spend money. As long as drugs are illegal, this is the only way to derive tax revenue from them."
"[5] All of the cash in the 'subterraneasn economy' would now be part of the tax base."
"I believe that we are entitled to the benefits of large-scale services which only a Federal Government can provide--national defense, Social Security, high-ticket research, help for the homeless, etc.--only so long as we are willing and able to pay for them; however, if such services are requested and rendered, it should be the goal and the responsibility of the government to make the deal work at a bargain price, with the least amount of fuss--not with the largest amount of paperwork, the highest payroll, and endless, insufferable layers of bureaucracy."
"Efficient Federal Government should present social policy choices to the electorate in clear language:"
"'If you want these services, it will cost this much. Are you sure you want them now? Here is a list of ways they can be paid for--choose one. If you say you want these services, we'll take care of it for you. If you say no--next case.'"
"That's right, folks: Utopia."
------------------
"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
*gets lumbar pillow*
This may take a while. Well, I guess I'll start at the top of the rant...
The first thing that comes to mind: why exactly are you paying for internet access when you're so strapped for cash? Not exactly a necessity, and if you absolutely need it, there are computers in libraries. Just a suggestion.
"they slashed my benefits in half--the result of "reforms" by a Republican governor"
Republican and conservative are not synonymous. Don Sunquist tried to shove an income tax down our throats in TN recently, so he's hardly a conservative, but he is technically a Republican. But under any circumstances, any "reform" that makes the system more complex and harder to manage is generally a bad idea, and it seems like this guy really screwed up.
"BUT...the minute I GET a job, the SSA takes 50� on the dollar away from my benefits; the state services take an extra quarter."
I feel compelled to point out that, IINM, the Republicans want to repeal that, at least on the national level. CT state politics are more the department of Frank's mom. And you may be interested to know that Clinton/Gore raised the taxes on your social security. If it wasn't for them, you'd be getting a (relatively) large chunk more of your own money back.
"Have you looked around at WHY there's "similar poverty levels?" A good reason is lack of education."
Point being? Pouring more money into the welfare program won't help them, regardless of the cause. Now reforming education, that might help.
"The REASON public education fails IS because the systems are flawed. The reason the systems are FLAWED is because no one wants to FUND them anymore."
Again, catch-22 reasoning. And without basis, to boot. If no one wants to fund the schools, why are some getting $6,000 per student, per year and STILL failing? Can't be for lack of money. The privatized competition does far better with far less. Thus there's something wrong with what is DONE with the money. Flawed system.
"YES, things like welfare need to be changed...but draconian cuts is NOT the ANSWER"
No one suggested that it was. But you need to realize that increased funding on the back of the economy isn't the answer, either. Since the problem is in how the system is run, then the answer is in changing that.
"nor is privatization at any level or idiotic concepts like "vouchers" or "points.""
Funny, how you provide no evidence of this. Tell me: what exactly do YOU suggest we do? I mean, so far you're acting just like Al: you say, "All these ideas are stupid, risky schemes," and yet you propose no alternative. Social security WILL DIE if something is not done. Our children are NOT GETTING AN EDUCATION. This CAN NOT be overemphasized. If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it.
"Oh, & I grew UP around your "so-called 'rich'"....there's nothing "so-called" ABOUT THEM."
Like heck. According to Algore, anyone who makes over $50 grand is "rich", and "powerful". Yeah, right. Try supporting a family of four on less in most parts of the country.
"That's how a fucking government WORKS, moron. Sampling from the all, averaging for the plan."
No, it's how the government TRIES to work. If you haven't noticed, it's been failing miserably. And if you think about it, you may see that this averaging is exactly what sticks you in your "limbo".
"You cannot nor SHOULD you expect "personalized political problem-solving" here or in any other country..."
Nor do I. They're MY problems, and _I_ can solve them ON MY FREAKIN' OWN. There is exactly one person qualified to run my life, and he don't live in DC.
"The only ICBM threat to us anymore is CHINA"
Russia holds a sizable portion of their nuclear arsenal. NK is developing this technology. There are the rogue missiles that no one could account for after the breakup of the USSR, and God only knows where they'll end up. And whether China would use them or not (debatable), they have no problem with selling the tech to other countries. Which would explain why they and Bill get along so well. Any country with the cash can get the technology to hit us where we live (literally). Thus missile defence.
Consider this argument shredded.
Jeff:
"...he *is* just a kid..."
This may be, but the scarry part is that I'm better informed than most adults.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
"What happens if a big asteroid hits the Earth? Judging from realistic simulations involving a sledge hammer and a common laboratory frog, we can assume it will be pretty bad."
- Dave Barry
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Of course, it brings out good political debates. I'd prefer to ask Shik not to get so vengeful over what Omega thinks.
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
So yeah, I'm a little bitter.
------------------
"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
That was a pretty good dissection. It recalls Quinn's Law : "Liberal legislation always produces the opposite of its stated intent." (like guys in California rushing to clear-cut their property before any endangered species are found on it.)
My gf, who is on pernament disability and gets a SSA check for about $500 a month, has many of the same problems. However, these problems are ALL the result of government "regulations" that do nothing of consequence except guarantee that dependent people REMAIN dependent.
1: The HMO (that's the beginning of 'socialized medicine' for those of you who've forgoten) doctors are generally not knowledgeable of the illnesses she has (they happen to be uncommon): Cervical ribs (resectioned), interstitial cystitis, monere's (sp?) syndrome, tinnitis.
2: They won't fund a program which would allow her to begin moving back to the lifestyle she was shooting for (college professor) before her illnesses became debilitating... in her case, this would probably amount to purchasing her a 'handicapped accessible' computer with voice regognition. That's IT. Regulations won't allow it, even though it could save the government (and thusly, YOU) thousands of dollars in the long-term.
3: Inumerable catch-22's. Her doctor decides she needs an MRI. The hospital will schedule her a date... as soon as the HMO approves it. The HMO will approve it... as soon as the hospital schedules her. (I finally got them to do it after threatening bodily harm to several people. I wouldn't advise this tactic.)
4: The government's (and HMO's) stone-age ideas about pain management and drugs basically mean that doctors are afraid to prescribe medicines that actually ease her pain, that she's not allergic to.
These problems are NOT solved by increased government control, they are WORSENED because government is an impersonal entity which, despite the feel-good regulations, doesn't care about you. Having some bureaucrat in D.C. deciding you life is worse than someone nearby... if only because the bureaucrat in DC is less likely to worry about what you might do if he screws you over.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
"I don't want HMO bureaucrats making YOUR medical decisions. I want my OWN bureaucrats doing that."
I know that it's not a problem that's been mentioned exactly, but a Rush quote comes to mind. "You could afford your house without the government, if it weren't for the government."
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Thank god you're not arrogant about it though, or you'd really be insufferable.
------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
Under any circumstances, it's not arrogance when it's true.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
Where's the bathroom on this ship?
As for leaving..I AM doing that. I already promised her that I'd move near her. The problem is...I need the money. Money means work, work means LOSING money. VERY annoying.
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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
That did get interesting. Might I point out Omega, that whilst you felt you shredded his arguments, you in fact did not. Now you are always stating (as gospel) that people have to do it for themselves. Where have you given a general outline, or a detailed one of how they are to do so? Your argument currently stands as: "Don't tax people, its bad mmm'k? Don't spend on welfare, its a drain mmm'k? We need a missile defence, even though an all out strike from Russia would obliterate the entire world, NMD or no NMD mmm'k!" I mean come on! Get some perspective here. What you need to do, if you have any conscience is to help those less fortunate. That means giving out some of what you have to others. If your system works so well, why is it that at the end of the Reagan period, over 50 million Americans did not have access to health care, and needed food coupons to eat? 50 Million bud. 20% of the population. In the words of that infestimental twit Pauline Hanson 'Please explain'. Oh, and don't use the 'they are lazy' or 'they are mentally challenged' lines. They're feeble.
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
Well, thank god that doesn't apply to you.
------------------
"Why do you want to spend time with a deer? They're so stupid, they get hypnotized by headlights!" - Guido Anchovy
Daryus:
"you felt you shredded his arguments"
I was actually refering to his final argument, about China being the only viable nuclear threat. That was just silly.
"Your argument currently stands as: "Don't tax people, its bad mmm'k? Don't spend on welfare, its a drain mmm'k? We need a missile defence, even though an all out strike from Russia would obliterate the entire world, NMD or no NMD mmm'k!""
Umm, no. My argument is more like "A) Well, higher taxes hurt the economy, so don't raise taxes unless all other options have been exausted. That's just common sense. B) Don't spend more on welfare than you're spending now, because you'd be better off flushing the money down the toilet and expecting to do any good with it. Try and fix the program, THEN see how much money you need. No use pouring water into a bucket with one huge hole in the bottom, is there? C) And it's not Russia I'm worried about. Russia wouldn't attack us. We could reduce their country to rubble just as quickly as they could ours. That's the thing that kept us both from being obliterated during the cold war: deterrence. What I'm worried about is some whacko that doesn't CARE about whether we nuke him or not, to which China sold the technology they obtained via Bill."
"What you need to do, if you have any conscience is to help those less fortunate. That means giving out some of what you have to others."
What makes you think I don't? This is one of those contradictory liberal things: they don't want religious people forcing their morals on others by legislation, and yet they try to do the exact same thing. What, are your morals better than mine? I give freely and cheerfully, both of time and money, and I think everyone else should, too, if they can. But I'm not going to try to force them to. My problem is not with helping the poor: it's with the government confiscating huge amounts of my income under the GUISE of helping the poor. 1: It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor. 2: I can do it a whole freakin' lot more efficiantly than the government, 'cause it's my money, and I know how best to use it. That, and the government has horrendous efficiancy rates. 3: The government DOES NOT have the right to take such huge amounts of money, and thus power over my own life, away from me. You think that once the government starts rediculous taxation rates, they're going to ever quit? Or that they're not going to use that power to force you to obey them? 4: When was the last time a government program actually solved anything, anyway?
Look at the eighties. Highest level of personal prosperity that we'd ever seen. And you know what? That was accompanied by the highest level of charitable giving, too. People will be generous with their money, so long as the government leaves them with any.
"If your system works so well, why is it that at the end of the Reagan period, over 50 million Americans did not have access to health care, and needed food coupons to eat?"
Your source being? I don't accept this statistic any more than the numbers Clinton and Lieberman made up in their respective speeches about the same thing. A fifth of the country was NOT on welfare progs. Ain't no freakin' way. And they did have access to health care, unless they lived in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness: emergency rooms.
"Oh, and don't use the 'they are lazy' or 'they are mentally challenged' lines. They're feeble."
No, they're true. What do YOU think happened to all those people who by all rights should be institutionalized, but can't be (thanks, JFK)? They can't take care of themselves. Hmm, where WOULD they live? I wonder...
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
People like HAMAS, the Shining Path, Iran, North Korea....they don't want to know from missiles. They want WARHEADS. They want shit someone can smuggle in piece by piece & rebuild inside the borders of "The Great Satan." Let's see how well your NMD is gonna work when Khalil & Ahmad frag the Super Bowl with a tiny 500 kt device in a Chevy.
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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
It's not just the TECHNOLOGY...it's the PHILOSOPHY as well. "Now...you're an intelligent man" (he said like Ted Koppel), left me expalin to you in simple terms Chinese philosophy: They're like the Romulans. They will plot. They will scheme. They will let others do work FOR them. But will they take an OVERT role or action unless completely certain of the outcome? FUCK NO. This is why they make rumblings at Taiwan, but won't attack outright or take back Quemoy or Matsu. They can't be sure just how far the US would retaliate. So..they rattle the saber occasionally to shake us up & assess us.
The Chinese can sell missile technology all they WANT. it doesn't mean that the buyers will be capable of yielding a long-range or even intermediate-range ICBM. It's not just warheads & missiles. it's tracking equipment, support staff, training, a million other things. This is not shit that can be done in secret.
Nations don't do shit like that anymore. They train small commando unitsto handle it for them on the griounds of "plausible denialbility." You should know all about that...remember the Reagan years & all those fun little "Jeezo-Juntas" they played with in the Lower Americas?
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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
quote:
Omega participates well in class, but does not grasp the concepts at hand.
LOL!!!
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This is a place of business, not a peewee flopphouse!
~C. Montgomery Burns
"Chinese philosophy: They're like the Romulans. They will plot. They will scheme. They will let others do work FOR them. But will they take an OVERT role or action unless completely certain of the outcome? FUCK NO."
Are you willing to bet your life and the lives of everyone you care about on that assumption?
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
I can see it now....walking into NSA or FAC...getting everyone's attention & proclaiming, "Ladies & gentlemen, I'm sorry to tell you this...but all your work is incorrect. Your decades of experience & your integral knowledge & skill has led you astray. All those intense years of struggle, the broken marriages, the inability to divulge even the smallest piece of information to your loved ones has been for naught. Our boy Omega here has all the answers, knows all the thoughts of all the leaders of all the Bad Nations In The World, & HE....has singlehandedly replaced you. Collect your things & pick up your paychecks at the front gate. You have 10 minutes."
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"What if, the next time someone tried to pull up a dandelion, it pulled back? What if the dandelion ducked under the blades of the lawnmower?" --Del
Oh agreed. But don't go arbitrarily cutting funding either. It'll hurt people.
"And it's not Russia I'm worried about. Russia wouldn't attack us. We could reduce their country to rubble just as quickly as they could ours. That's the thing that kept us both from being obliterated during the cold war: deterrence. What I'm worried about is some whacko that doesn't CARE about whether we nuke him or not, to which China sold the technology they obtained via Bill"
Last time I looked, they were saying that espionage had been going on since forever. Just because they busted it open on Bills watch doesn't mean he was incompitent with security. Hell, it probably means that he caught the bastards red handed (no pun intended) where Granddaddy Ron & co failed.
"1: It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor."
Uhh, actually, if they are democratically elected, and came to power on that platform, then it IS their job. Or did you miss that?
"3: The government DOES NOT have the right to take such huge amounts of money, and thus power over my own life, away from me. You think that once the government starts rediculous taxation rates, they're going to ever quit? Or that they're not going to use that power to force you to obey them?"
Adolf, Adolf! Come to America Adolf, all the Democrats want you to lead their party! Sometimes pal, you really spew unadulterated crap.
"4: When was the last time a government program actually solved anything, anyway?"
'We have nothing to fear but fear itself'. Great depression. Govt spending stimulates the economy. Do you have any idea how fiscal policy works anyway? The governments job is to help steer the economy, not to control it.
"Look at the eighties. Highest level of personal prosperity that we'd ever seen."
And the greatest disparity between the rich and poor. But I guess you missed that.
Daryus Said: "If your system works so well, why is it that at the end of the Reagan period, over 50 million Americans did not have access to health care, and needed food coupons to eat?"
Omega said: Your source being? I don't accept this statistic any more than the numbers Clinton and Lieberman made up in their respective speeches about the same thing. A fifth of the country was NOT on welfare progs. Ain't no freakin' way. And they did have access to health care, unless they lived in the middle of the Alaskan wilderness: emergency rooms.
Daryus says: My source? John Pilger, who was referring to a US congressional finding. Look it up. I have no interest in making up numbers. If you don't believe it, tough. Emergency rooms. RIGHT! So basically you have to be close to dead before they'll do anything. Oh that sounds like a functional system to me!
By the way, do you really believe that every homeless or unemployed person has something mentally wrong with them? Or just the ones who disagree with you?
"Again, Russia has the tech, too, and China seems willing to sell it to anyone with the dough. In contravention of treaty, I might add. And again, you're assuming that China isn't threat enough. I wouldn't be willing to risk three hundred million lives on your interpretation of Chinese military philosophy."
I should think that the 6000 ICBMS you have would be enough deterrent against the 24 China sports. As you so beautifully pointed out, mutual deterrence worked against Russia. Think about it.
BTW Shik, lmao on the last post. Well said.
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"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
The NSA. You TRUST the NSA? *sigh*
The government's job is to help the poor? Where does it say that? Point me to the article in the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says that.
The government's job is to promote EQUALITY. That means, to see that everybody starts the race at the same starting line. Equal OPPORTUNITY. To promote education, learning, activity. What you make of your opportunities is YOUR problem.
You're asking the government to promote EQUITY. That's where everybody FINISHES the race at the same time.
Equality is easy. Equity is IMPOSSIBLE. (Not to mention unnatural, artificial, dangerous, etc.) Harrison Bergeron lived in a world of equity (Doesn't ANYBODY read Vonnegut anymore??)
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Again, nonsensical. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying before you argue against it.
Daryus:
re: welfare
"But don't go arbitrarily cutting funding either. It'll hurt people."
As I said, that's not what I'm advocating.
"Uhh, actually, if they are democratically elected, and came to power on that platform, then it IS their job. Or did you miss that?"
Uhh, actually, only if stated so in the constitution of said country, either originally or by ammendment. So says the tenth ammendment. Or did you miss that?
"Sometimes pal, you really spew unadulterated crap."
I would point out that you didn't deny that I was right. History of the US has shown that consistantly, once a liberal government has taken power over you, the only way you get it back is if a conservative gets elected.
"Great depression. Govt spending stimulates the economy."
Well, then it's kinda funny how the depression didn't show any signs of ending until WW2.
"The governments job is to help steer the economy, not to control it."
The government trying to steer the economy is what caused the depression in the first place.
re: eighties
"And the greatest disparity between the rich and poor. But I guess you missed that."
And the fewest actual NUMBERS of poor. More people jumped straight from lower to upper class than stayed in the lower class. But I guess you missed that.
"Emergency rooms. RIGHT! So basically you have to be close to dead before they'll do anything."
Do you have any idea how emergency rooms work? You can go there for a shot of cordrizone (sp) if you run into poison oak. Heck, I would have had to go there because I had a piece of dirt on the inside of my eyelid, if it had happened six hours later (eye-dude would have been closed for the three day weekend). "Emergency" does not mean "life-threatening emergency".
"By the way, do you really believe that every homeless or unemployed person has something mentally wrong with them?"
Strawman attack. I never said this. I said that a "good number" of them do. And you didn't answer MY question: where exactly do you think that all the mentally disabled people that can't take care of themselves are, if not homeless? I can think of a specific case in which one started a fire in an abandoned building, reported it, and left. A fireman died searching for them. That kid (early twenties, if that old) had a mental problem. He was diagnosed as having one. He had a home to go to. He had no problems with his parents. He simply chose to be homeless, due to a mental condition, and it cost a couple kids their father.
"I should think that the 6000 ICBMS you have would be enough deterrent against the 24 China sports. As you so beautifully pointed out, mutual deterrence worked against Russia."
Yeah, but active defence is preferable to assuming that the psyche of your adversary will remain stable. Why are you guys against missile defence, anyway? You have no argument.
You'd all do well to listen to First.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Well, here's something interesting. My former history teacher told me that California's public education used to be one of the best in the country while he was going to school (around the 60s), and schools then were funded by property tax (well, some tax on houses). After this tax was abolished by a proposition, quality of Califonian public schools went straight downhill.
"It's not the freakin' government's JOB to help the poor."
But it's the freakin' government's job to help the rich? What do you call tax cuts for businesses? Or tax deductions for business costs? When's the last time YOU got a tax deduction off your plane ticket?
Oh hey, here's some more good news. Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?
Think the minimum wage is too high? How about accounting for inflation? The minimum wage is now 5.15 nation-wide. Adjusting for inflation, the wage was the equivalent of approx. $7 a few decades ago.
So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile? Is it even possible to detect it before it goes off?
Both W. and Gore are corporate puppets, no doubt about it. We have tax money paying for the Republican and Democratic conventions, and still they sell sponsorship to the highest bidder. Businesses need to get OUT of politics. Heck, even Businessweek had an article saying that. Let's get someone who's NOT afraid of standing up to corporations. Vote Ralph Nader.
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"Poetic souls delight in prose insane."
--Lord Byron
You know, my parents run a small collectibles shop out of my late grandmother's house. It isn't much, but the business deductions help us afford to keep the family farm, which we mightn't be able to do on their retirement money alone.
"Oh hey, here's some more good news. Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?"
Maybe, maybe not. Can you prove it, and isn't it beyond the statute of limitations? And why, why, WHY do we care SO much about potheads going to jail for knowingly breaking the law when there are literally thousands of even stupider laws (like forcing the non-development of 10 acres of land to protect a 'wetland' the size of a card table), which can get you without you even knowing about them? I mean HELLO, is there anyone left in this country besides the profoundly retarded that doesn't know that maryjane is ILLEGAL? *(except in some states for medical purposes.. 'yeah, that's it, medical...')
"Think the minimum wage is too high? How about accounting for inflation? The minimum wage is now 5.15 nation-wide. Adjusting for inflation, the wage was the
equivalent of approx. $7 a few decades ago."
Inflation is too high. Who's fault is that? *BZZT!* 70's Carterism. Democratic Congress.
"So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile? Is it even possible to detect it before it goes off?"
We can detect missiles at launch, and during boost phase(not to mention before launch, with a good spysat).. but that doesn't help if ya can't shoot 'em down. However, I do think the currect system is too unreliable to be practical.
Most folks who would launch a nuke wouldn't, if they knew the result would kill them too.
Terrorists are different, and require a different strategy. Personally, I'm for saying to Hell with propriety, and sending a few elite special forces into some of these 'training camps' after dark to leave a message. The message, to be found amongst the guts of the would-be terrorists by the next camp visitor: "We hit back, we hit harder."
"Businesses need to get OUT of politics. Heck, even Businessweek had an article saying that."
Yep. But the time's not coming soon. You'd have an easier time trying to get Religion out of politics. They shouldn't go together, but they're inextricably linked in the minds of too many.
And besides, then government would have to get out of business, too... and there goes all your price regulation, environmental legislation, development legislation, housing codes, commerce legislation, antidiscrimination in hiring laws...
"Vote Ralph Nader."
Nice sentiment, but I'd druther vote for a candidate who has a chance in hell of winning, even if it IS the lesser of two evils. At least until the US gets a "None of the Above" ballot for Primary and General elections.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
"My former history teacher told me that California's public education used to be one of the best in the country while he was going to school (around the 60s), and schools then were funded by property tax. After this tax was abolished by a proposition, quality of Califonian public schools went straight downhill."
This tells you nothing. How much was being spent before. How much is being spent now? What other changes have taken place? Get all the facts before you make your decision.
"But it's the freakin' government's job to help the rich? What do you call tax cuts for businesses?"
Helping the economy. Who do you think drives it? The government? *L*
"Did you know that there are about 680 people in Texas jailed for over 18 years for marijuana possession? Didn't old W. do the same thing?"
Again, get all the facts first. I will say this one more time: There is NO evidence that Bush EVER used drugs. There was never even a real aligation of it. 'Course, if you really wanna bring drug use into it, we've got a very reliable source that says Al was quite into the stuff in his younger days. You don't happen to read the NY Times?
"Think the minimum wage is too high?"
No, I think it's unconstitutional and pointless, just like overtime laws. We've been through the inflation that it would cause. Besides, isn't it discrimination against salaried workers? Or are all of them "the powerful", and thus not deserving of the government's protection, ala Gore?
"So you want to spend more on the military. Exactly HOW is more money going to prevent somebody from firing a nuclear missile?"
You're not paying attention. The objective of missile defense is not to prevent the launch of a missile. It's to prevent it's impact, and the subsequent death of ten million people or so. And we also need more money so our soldiers won't have to live off handouts from the government. And to actually get our forces into usable condition would be nice, too.
"Both W. and Gore are corporate puppets, no doubt about it."
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the companies give money to the cantidate who's existing views help them, instead of doing so to try to change said views? 'Course, the only way to judge that would be by how often the cantidate had changed his positions in the past. Hmm, I wonder who wins there...
"We have tax money paying for the Republican and Democratic conventions..."
Actually, IINM, one of those "powerful" that Gore is always ranting about came in and bailed out the Democrat convention. They didn't have all that much money to work with before he came along. Hardly funded by tax dollars, and hypocritical, besides. Don't know about the Reps, but I doubt it.
"...they sell sponsorship to the highest bidder."
Again, what evidence?
"Businesses need to get OUT of politics."
Why? Politics affect people as groups just as much as people as individuals. Moreso, with the success-hating liberals in power.
"Vote Ralph Nader."
Yes, ignore the fact that he's more liberal than even Al, at least on stated positions. With Al, that may not mean much.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Right on the money, though, for the most part. 'Cept that religion thang you got goin'. But let's not start that again.
Although now that I think about it, I don't think we've ever had a debate about the role of religion in government...
"Inflation is too high. Who's fault is that? *BZZT!* 70's Carterism. Democratic Congress."
Well, much as I hate to blame a Republican ( ), Nixon's wage controls were probably more responsible for inflation than Carter. They started the spiral that Reagan ended. Carter certainly didn't help much, though. And the Democratic congress was definitely responsible for the deficit spending of the eighties.
Good terrorist strategy, BTW. Ever read "Patriot Games"?
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
quote:
Actually, IINM, one of those "powerful" that Gore is always ranting about came in and bailed out the Democrat convention. They didn't have all that much money to work with before he came along. Hardly funded by tax dollars, and hypocritical, besides. Don't know about the Reps, but I doubt it.
On June 24, 2000, Los Angeles Times' Jim Newton wrote:
"The hosts of this summer's Democratic National Convention eked out a victory Friday in their fight for a $4-million public subsidy, but only after City Councilwoman Jackie Goldberg used her decisive vote to extract concessions that cheered activists, alarmed downtown business owners, worried police and cost Mayor Richard Riordan $1 million of his own money."
quote:
Again, get all the facts first
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This is a place of business, not a peewee flopphouse!
~C. Montgomery Burns
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
First: I have no problems with tax credits for small businesses, but does Microsoft or GM need it? Giant corporations are the ones funding political campaigns, not your parent's little shop.
And you're right, Nader has no chance in hell of getting elected. He's not corrupted enough. Vote Gore so W. doesn't become president.
Omega: So how come your conservatism doesn't go both ways? If the government shouldn't restrict businesses, why should it help them?
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"Poetic souls delight in prose insane."
--Lord Byron
"The POINT isn't that W. has taken drugs (which seems to be common knowledge, as the media and other candidates mentions it at one time or another)"
It's also common knowledge that Gore's winning. Guess what? He's not. The media only reports the polls that show Gore winning, even though historically they're far less accurate than the Battleground and Portrait of America polls, both of which show Bush ahead slightly more than the margin of error.
And as for the drug use aligations, the only time I've heard it come up in quite some time was with that reporter that Bush called a certain bodily orifice. He wrote an article about how the aligations just would not die, citing a press conference where a reporter had asked about them. What he didn't say was that he WAS that reporter. Real unbiased. Again, there is absolutely NO reason to believe that Bush has used drugs.
"Nader has no chance in hell of getting elected. He's not corrupted enough. Vote Gore so W. doesn't become president."
You seem to be implying that Bush is more corrupt (not that you have any evidence that he's corrupt in the first place, but since when has lack of evidence mattered to liberals?) than Gore. This is LAUGHABLE! Go look up Gore's record some time, wudja?
"Omega: So how come your conservatism doesn't go both ways? If the government shouldn't restrict businesses, why should it help them?"
You define cessation of excessive taxation as help? I call it an end to active harm. There's a difference. If someone has me on the rack, then takes me off of it, do I say that they've helped me? Should I thank them?
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
We know that Gore has a serious credibility problem. We know he can't go 5 days without lying. The media is slowly picking up on it, and maybe people out there will too.
George W. Bush is honest, and has far more integrity than Gore. You and I know this. You can present all the information you can, and if others still don't understand, forget about them. Its their loss. I think its time to chill off on the horse for now, ok? It can't get any more dead.
(hrm, I suppose I just gave him license to be smug... oh well)
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Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
Giving up never has been my style.
Ultra:
"Well, if the someone who takes you off the rack isn't the one who put you on it in the first place, then it's help."
Good point. Of course, you could make the argument that it's still the government, no matter who's in charge, that's doing all this, but let's not.
Under any circumstances, cutting unfairly high taxes on big business is right. Why should they pay a greater ratio of their earnings? Why should anyone? Does that seem "fair"?
Can anyone tell me exactly how a business pays taxes? It's never occured to me to ask. Just on their basic income like anyone else?
I still think a flat sales tax would be the most
"fair" and efficient.
"Shouldn't that read "George W. Bush is less of a liar than Gore"? Because, we you are speaking of a politician, are you not?"
That's rather cynical, don't you think?
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
As if no one in history has ever garbled a word before.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
And why don't you address some of the tougher questions, like public health, instead of spewing party lines on "assisting" the economy?
Might I remind you that despite all the taxes, corporations have the money to hire big time lawyers to find tax loopholes. Need I even MENTION that companies like Nike charge us $100 for a pair of shoes while its workers are underpaid?
For your information, I don't really care what the polls say about Gore or Bush. I did a poll project in government class, and if there's one thing I learned from it, it's that polls are untrustworthy because people change their opinions all the time. Not only that, the way the questions are phrased can impact the results as well.
On a last note, Nader's really a swell guy. Besides the fact that I like his ideals, he spoke at my school with only a week's notice and didn't even get paid for it. On-campus Democrat and Republican groups are trying to get Bush and Gore to speak, though I don't think they'd have any luck.
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"Poetic souls delight in prose insane."
--Lord Byron
Okay. the reason people can't afford health care, especially prescription drugs, is government interference. When you arrange for the government to pay for something, the companies supplying it will charge as much as possible, since the government can pay pretty much any price. Hence the $400 hammer.
"Might I remind you that despite all the taxes, corporations have the money to hire big time lawyers to find tax loopholes. Need I even MENTION that companies like Nike charge us $100 for a pair of shoes while its workers are underpaid? "
Need I even mention that you don't need to BUY them?
I have never paid more than half that for a pair of shoes. Ever. I won't, I'm too cheap. I shop at discount stores for inexpensive brands, and screw Nike. It's the Fashion Clones simply MUST have the 'swoosh' who keep Nike's prices high. Supply and Demand. if demand is high, prices go up. If demand dries up, prices go down.
I do agree with you about politicians selling out to get campaign money. Here's a campaign promise. I will tell anybody anything to get myself money to get elected... but I'll be lying. Feel better?
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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"...you know, Omega, there's a phrase you might want to look up. It goes something like "paranoid arrogant fuckwit who has more chance of ejaculating to the moon than he has of ever convincing a girl that he's a viable prospect for marriage." -PsyLiam, September 16, 2000 10:23 PM.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Well, First beat me to the rest of your post, so let me just say that polls are NOT untrustworthy, in toto. Certain polls, yes, but go look up the accuracy records of PoA and Battleground. They called the '96 race dead on.
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
Twice?
But my real point is that it means that Bush II has never listened to John Henry.
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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
------------------
"My dear, I used to think that I was serving humanity... and I pleasured in the thought. Then I discovered that humanity does not want to be served; on the contrary it resents any attempt to serve it. So now I do what pleases Jubal Harshaw." ---Jubal Harshaw, Stranger In A Strange Land
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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
There's a word my girlfriend just CAN'T manage to pronounce, but right now I can't remember what it is. There's a few that sometimes trip me up too. It's not a big deal, except that for a moment you end up sounding like Archie Bunker or something.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."
- George Bernard Shaw
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited September 22, 2000).]
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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
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Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
Good one.------------------
"More beer, more beer, more beer, more beer! ARSE!"
- Ode to God.
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love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.