Why does Bush- someone with honor and integrity but who occasionally flubs things- seem so much worse than Gore-a demogogue who can't seem to stop lying?
It quite honestly boggles my mind.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited October 25, 2000).]
Don't misinterpret that as an attack, either. I'm sure you've heard the phrase "it's the economy, stupid" before.
Also, remember, there's a current scandal in Texas involving a funeral management company or something that Gore is involved in -- and there is clear and definite proof that he lied about that (I posted the article around here somewhere a day or so ago).
So it's not Bush's intellectual prowess v Gore's lying, 'cuz guess what? Bush is as red handed as anyone.
Besides, this is America. We the people have been nurtured to the idea that ALL POLITICIANS LIE. Someone says "so-and-so told a lie!" and that's expected.
But, Jeff, how does Bush, who flubs things and lies, suddenly become so much better than Gore? And I doubt very much that Dubya has honor or integrity -- sorry, dude. I think that became clear when he attacked that reporter a month or so ago.
------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 25, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 25, 2000).]
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
Bush's Lies
--------------------------
(we'll take the one you've stated, since its the only one I've heard about, whether or not it be true)
Gore's Lies
-------------------------
He lies about his mother-in-law and his dog taking the same drug.
He lies about Winifred Skinner having to collect cans to pay for her prescriptions.
He lies about discovering the Love Canal
He lies about inventing the Internet
He lies about himself and Tipper being the model couple in Love Story
He lies about authoring the Earned Income Tax Credit
He lies about helping to create the Strategic Petroleum Reserves.
I can come up with more, if you'd like.
Oh, but really, we can forgive all this... Gore is so much more an eloquent speaker than Bush is, so he deserves to be President more than Bush does.
If you have listened to Bush's address at the Al Smith Dinner(I can provide audio clips, if you wish), as well as his satellite address last week, you'd find that Bush is actually not that bad of a speaker.
You might as well vote for Gore because he has nicer hair.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
If you want to vote for someone who wants to "limit freedom", be my guest.
Do you know who Zack Exley is? He operated This Site. When Bush found about about this, he called Exley a "Garbage man" and also that there should be "limits to freedom." (Washington Post, April 20, 2000)
Al Gore exagerates about creating the internet (he actually never claimed to, Jeffy boy, although he did take quite a bit of iniative in pushing through Government support for it), and Bush wants to take away personal freedoms ... and suddenly, Gore is the bad guy?
Hello, this country is founded on freedom ... and George Dubya says "uh-uh!" ????
As for lies, do you remember Dubya claiming that he "brought Republicans and Democrats together to get a patients' bill of rights through." He vetoed the bill, Jeff. He told what is called a "whopper" ... yes, a lie. Jon Alter
And how is Houston the most polluted city? Bush said "we have a lot of cars. We're a big city." Um, hhmm ... bigger than New York or LA? I think not.
I mean, come on, during the debate, Bush couldn't even give specifics on his own tax cut plan! GOOD LORD!
------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 25, 2000).]
A: You have no evidence that Bush lied.
B: A quite comment to an aide is hardly an attack. Not that he was wrong.
JK2:
"Bush has got poor communication skills, no matter how earnest he is. And quite frankly, I don't want someone running the country when I know I can speak better English than he can."
Are you really that shallow when it comes to voting? What the eff difference does it make that he can't speak well in public!? He's got the better ideas, the leadership skills, the credibility, and the record. Gore has... what?
Not that JR didn't say all that already.
JK2:
"If you want to vote for someone who wants to "limit freedom", be my guest."
He's voting for BUSH, remember?
As for that website, last I checked, libel was illegal, and calling someone a crackhead with the direct intent to harm them is libel. Unless you can prove it, that is.
"As for lies, do you remember Dubya claiming that he "brought Republicans and Democrats together to get a patients' bill of rights through." He vetoed the bill, Jeff."
IIRC, he vetoed a DIFFERENT PBoR. I seem to recall there being one on the books.
"And how is Houston the most polluted city?"
Why don't you ask the Democrat mayor? Or the Democrat governor under whom it got that bad?
"I mean, come on, during the debate, Bush couldn't even give specifics on his own tax cut plan!"
Really? I must have missed that, what with all Gore's mischaracterization of (read: lying about) it. Example, please.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
"Do you know who Zack Exley is? He operated This Site. When Bush found about about this, he called Exley a "Garbage man" and also that there should be "limits to freedom."(Washington Post, April 20, 2000)"
If I created a webpage called "www.jeffkarde.com" and included nothing but slander against you, how would you respond? And if that link is supposed to show where Bush said this, all it does is bring me to the front page.
"Al Gore exagerates about creating the internet (he actually never claimed to"
"During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." Al Gore, during an interview with Wolf Blitzer on CNN on March 9, 1999. Gore supported technological advances related to the advancement of the Internet, but to say that HE took the initiative in creating the Internet is a bit much.
"As for lies, do you remember Dubya claiming that he "brought Republicans and Democrats together to get a patients' bill of rights through." He vetoed the bill, Jeff."
That's not what I heard. He did veto one, but after that, he signed another one after he got together to work it out with both Democrats and Republicans
"And how is Houston the most polluted city? Bush said "we have a lot of cars. We're a big city." Um, hhmm ... bigger than New York or LA? I think not."
Don't even bring this in. Houston is run by a Democrat Mayor, who refuses to do anything about it, not to mention that most of the statistics being used by the Democrats are outdated by, say, 8 years!
"I mean, come on, during the debate, Bush couldn't even give specifics on his own tax cut plan! GOOD LORD!"
Specifics?! GOOD LORD!! http://www.bush2000.com/issues/taxes.html
Most of which I heard in the debates.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
Hwaet gecynd thes Englisces?
"The way I see it, just reading unbiasedly through this and other threads on the subject, one can find enough wrong w/ both candidates to realize that neither one ought to be president..."
I'm certainly not voting for either...
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Gardening for Dummies is too intense." - Rick
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
IT'S THE ECONOMY, STUPID
And that's the damn truth. You can't deny that the nation's economy is doing GREAT right now -- employment is low, people are making the dough.
And that's what counts ... =)
------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
You actually believe that Clinton and Gore actually had something to do with this economy?!
*LMFAO*
Just about every economist will tell you that Presidents, or any politician, has almost NO effect on the economy, with exception to raising and lowering taxes. Just because it happened while He was there, doesn't mean he had anything to do with it. I'm sorry, but the economy is NOT a valid rebuttal.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
I eat Liberals for Breakfast.
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited October 26, 2000).]
------------------
Frank's Home Page
"Gardening for Dummies is too intense." - Rick
So peace out you conservative types.
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
I am very well aware that Alan Greenspan is responsible for the economy, being the head of the Federal Reserve (I bet you didn't even know that much, did ya?).
You know what? I don't give a fuck. Greenspan's been in office since the Regan Admin, and the economy has taken off since Clinton took office. And it's true -- do you know how low unemployment is? There was an article in Newsweek about how employers are going to great lengths to keep their employees.
All Presidents take credit for the economy. Yep, Jeff, all of 'em. So I'll say it again num-nuts,
IT'S THE ECONOMY, *STUPID*
And as for Houston, I find it hard to believe that Bush couldn't go in and force 'em to clean up their act. Sorry, buddy. Bush is the governor of Texas and responsible for the whole state. You can't brush it off by saying "oh, its someone else's fault!" Bush himself didn't do that, he didn't say "there's a Democrat there, so it's not my fault" so I find it hilarious that you're using the excuse.
------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 26, 2000).]
A challenge. You named 7 lies you've accused Gore of, including one, which most people invovled in relationships realize isn't really a lie, it's probably the most romantic thing you can say to a girl, so shame on you.
But, back to the challenge ... if you can name 7 lies that Gore supposedly said, can you list 7 positive things Bush has done for Texas? And back them up? And I don't mean:
-Bush stops at all the red lights
Can you take this challenge, oh-you conservative right wing nut head?
------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000 - a step forward into the new millennia
Untrue. The economy began a steady rise roughly 18 years ago, and was only interrupted briefly (actualy, stalled out entirely for a short time) by the huge 1993 tax increase passed by the then Democratic (but not for long, guess why) Congress.
The explosion under the late Clinton Administration is a result of reversals on the Now-Republican Congress's part, combined with a profusion of unstable 'dotcom' stocks, and the uninhibited influence of Greenspan. Clinton/Gore had almost nothing to do with it, and, had they been able to push through the tax increases they proposed, would almost certainly have stalled it out again.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Unemployment Down to 4.1%: The unemployment rate in Texas has declined from 7.6% to 4.1% since 1993.
2,005,800 New Jobs: 2,005,800 new jobs have been created in Texas since 1993 -- an average of 267,440 per year, compared to an average of only 153,075 jobs per year during the previous governor's.
1,803,300 New Private Sector Jobs: Since 1993, 1,803,300 new private sector jobs have been created an average of 240,440 jobs per year, compared to an average of just 113,000 private sector jobs per year than the previous governor.
106,600 New Manufacturing Jobs: 106,600 manufacturing jobs have been created in Texas since 1993 -- an average of 14,213 jobs per year. In contrast, an average of only 1,950 manufacturing jobs were created each year during the previous governor's admininstration.
212,000 New Construction Jobs: 212,000 construction jobs have been created in Texas since 1993 -- an average of 28,267 jobs per year. In contrast, an average of only 6,300 construction jobs were created each year during the previous governor's admininstration.
Bankruptcy Filings Down 13.7%: Bankruptcy filings in Texas have declined 13.7% per year since 1993, after increasing 14.2% during the previous two administrations.
Homeownership Has Increased in Texas: Homeownership in Texas has increased from 59.3% to 62.9% since 1993.
Homebuilding Up 10.3%: Homebuilding in Texas has increased 10.3% per year since 1993. In contrast, homebuilding in Texas decreased an average of 5.6% per year before Bush.
1.4% Growth in Total Bank Loans and Leases: Texas has seen a 1.4% average growth rate in total bank loans and leases per year since 1993. In contrast total bank loans and leases fell an average 4.9% per year before Bush.
0.6% Growth in Commercial and Industrial Loans and Leases: Since 1993, Texas has experienced a 0.6% annual growth rate in commercial and industrial loans and leases. In contrast, commercial and industrial loans and leases fell an average of 8.2% per year before Bush.
ACCESS TO EDUCATION
Over 58,100 Children in Head Start: 58,173 Texas children were enrolled in Head Start in 1999. In FY00, Texas will receive $351.2 million in Head Start funding, an increase of $179.2 million over 1993.
Over $35 Million for Technology Literacy: This year, Texas receives $35.2 million, for the Technology Literacy Challenge Fund, which helps communities and the private sector ensure that every student is equipped with the computer literacy skills needed for the 21st century.
$681.4 Million for Students Most in Need: Texas receives $681.4 million in Title I Grants (to Local Educational Agencies) providing extra help in the basics for students most in need, particularly communities and schools with high concentrations of children in low-income families [FY00]. This includes $11.6 million in accountability grants, to help states and school districts turn around the worst performing schools and hold them accountable for results.
CRIME AND VIOLENCE
Crime Falls 15% in Texas: Under Bush, Texas has experienced the longest continuous drop in crime on record. Since 1992, serious crime in Texas has fallen by 15%. Violent crime and property crime has also declined by 18% and 14% respectively.
Crime Has Dropped Sharply in Major Cities: In Dallas, between 1992 and 1997, serious crime, as indicated by the crime index, has declined 23%, with a 46% drop in murder and a 51% drop in robbery.
In addition, serious crime has also declined 47% in Fort Worth, 32% in Beaumont, 46% in Odessa and 31% in Wichita Falls. The murder rate has fallen 52% in Beaumont, 47% in Brownsville, 45% in El Paso, 57% in San Antonio and 91% in Wichita Falls. [1992 and 1997 Uniform Crime Reports]
Juvenile Arrests Down in Texas: Texas�s juvenile murder arrests have decreased 61%. [FBI, Uniform Crime Report, 1992 and 1997]
WELFARE TO WORK
496,746 Fewer People on Welfare: There are 496,746 fewer people on welfare in Texas now than there were at the beginning of 1993 -- a 63% decrease.
Child Support Collections Up 178%: Child support collections have increased by nearly $448 million or 178% -- in Texas since FY92.
TEXAS�S HEALTH
In Texas in 1998, 91% of two-year olds received the vaccines for diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis; 88% received the vaccine for polio; 90% received the vaccine for measles, and 91% received the vaccine for Haemophilus influenzae B, the bacteria causing a form of meningitis.
11 Toxic Waste Sites Cleaned Up: Since 1993, the EPA has completed 11 Superfund toxic waste clean-ups in Texas. The sites are located in Grand Prairie, Bridge City, Texas City, Friendswood, Crosby (2), Houston, Lamarque, Conroe, and Odessa (2).
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited October 26, 2000).]
"including one, which most people invovled in relationships realize isn't really a lie, it's probably the most romantic thing you can say to a girl"
Irrelevant. It's still a lie. Things don't suddenly become good because you have good intentions. If you say something that you know is false, IT IS A LIE. Period.
Fo2:
"The economy began a steady rise roughly 18 years ago, and was only interrupted briefly (actualy, stalled out entirely for a short time) by the huge 1993 tax increase passed by the then Democratic (but not for long, guess why) Congress."
Well, almost right. The economy was stalled by the 1991 tax increase under Bush. Balanced budget deal, in which the Dem congress lied. Again. But the economy was back on its feet LONG before the '92 election. Yet another thing Clinton lied about to get into office.
"Clinton/Gore had almost nothing to do with it, and, had they been able to push through the tax increases they proposed, would almost certainly have stalled it out again."
Oh, and don't forget about HillaryCare. Natonalizing a full seventh of the economy is generally a bad thing. 'Course, we in TN got stuck with it anyway...
JK (again):
I think JR won that one.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
------------------
"So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts"
- Bloodhound Gang
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
NEVER make me read all that shit again at once! My head hurts now.
I can't justify Bush. Nor can I justify Gore; the spectre of PMRC still lingers in my head 15 years later. I'd vote McCain, but..well...yeah.
I COULD take my housemate's idea & wrtie in our mayor....hell, EVERYone loves Gene!
Nah...I'll probably go all out & vote for Unabashed Craziness: Duke 2000
------------------
"Two parts slush...one part solid ice...one part hard-packed snow...a dash of assorted debris...sculpt into sphere, and serve at high velocity without warning." --Calvin
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
Here's the real issue of this election.
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
and...
Fun for the whole family! Well, except for Nader supporters, but who really cares about them?
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
------------------
"So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts"
- Bloodhound Gang
Stupid idiot doesn't realize that the military has been shrung because the Soviet Union collapsed. Did he miss the fact that the cold war is over? What a moron.
------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000 - a step forward into the new millennium
Russia sold nuclear technology to Iran. Is that the action of a non-threat?
Then Chenemyrdin (sp?) entered into an agreement with Gore to withhold knowledge of said sales from Congress. Is this good?
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
), Bush would get my vote, no matter how much Gore teases bush about that so called "llllaaaaaahhhhhkkkkkkbbbbaaaaaxxxxxx!!!!!!"But of course, this is an American election. We have our own matters to tend to.
As for Gore's so-called lies that I have so far never heard about.....
He lies about his mother-in-law and his dog taking the same drug.
Could be a possibility. Was it pennicilin?
He lies about Winifred Skinner having to collect cans to pay for her prescriptions.
Who is Winifred Skinner and where is she from?
He lies about discovering the Love Canal
BAH!!!!! So he likes to joke around. Can someone confirm where and when he said this?
He lies about inventing the Internet
He should be nuked for saying that.
He lies about himself and Tipper being the model couple in Love Story
That's his opinion. I could say that my gf and I are the model couple in Love Story too. I don't take it as a blatant lie, not yet, that is.
He lies about authoring the Earned Income Tax Credit
No comment. I have no knowledge of this whatsoever.
He lies about helping to create the Strategic Petroleum Reserves.
I think I'll have to agree on this one. Mention was made that the US had plenty of strategic reserves since the 50s (or somthin like that).
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
He lies about himself and Tipper being the model couple in Love StoryThat's his opinion. I could say that my gf and I are the model couple in Love Story too. I don't take it as a blatant lie, not yet, that is.
No, I believe what he was claiming was that he and Tipper were the model for story. As in, it was based off of their lives.
------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
Is it Nationally politicians don't get the economic credit, but state leaders do?
------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...
The drug was called Lodine. The campaign has refused to comment on whether his mother-in-law OR the dog actually use the drug. The problem is with the numbers, since he actually pulled them straight out of a Democrat report, not from any factual source.
"Who is Winifred Skinner and where is she from?"
Skinner was a "seasoned citizen" he supposedly found somewhere who he said had to collect cans to pay for her perscription drugs. This was a lie. She did pick up cans while walking, and she did turn them in for money, but so does my grandfather. Both reasons are the same: they don't need the money, they simply don't like seeing trash on the road. The woman was hardly poor: she drove her winnebago to the first debate.
"BAH!!!!! So he likes to joke around. Can someone confirm where and when he said this?"
IIRC, he was talking about his oh so WONDERFUL environmental record. "I discovered a little place called Love Canal." He had nothing to do with the discovery of the problems at Love Canal.
"He lies about himself and Tipper being the model couple in Love Story."
Well, this is more of a half-truth. The male lead was based on a composite of him and his roommate (Tommy Lee Jones), and mainly the roommate. Tipper had nothing to do with it.
"He lies about authoring the Earned Income Tax Credit."
Yeah, he said he created this, when in fact it became law before he was even elected.
"He lies about helping to create the Strategic Petroleum Reserves."
Same here.
Ritten:
Well, you have to consider the turnaround. Things were abysmal before he got into office. Now I know it's a sort of post hoc, ergo proptor hoc, but if "B" follows "A", it's at least possible that "A" caused "B". Thus if things turned around after Bush started implementing policy, then it's likely (but not definite) that it was BECAUSE of that policy. And don't bring up Clinton. The recession was over before he even started running, much less implemented policy.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
The reason he got voted out of office was that CLINTON LIED (oh, there's a surprise) about the economy. People like, oh, say, you believed him when he said that the recession was still on. So it's uninformed, ignorant people like you that got Bill elected in the first place.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
Watch your mouth, Omega.
So let me guess, Liberals/Democrats are always ignorant liars and Conservatives/Republicans are always good people... right.
Liars are on both sides of the fence, Omega. It is unfortunate that you have never seen a ignorant, lying conservative before.
------------------
"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited October 31, 2000).]
I never said "ignorant liars". I said "ignorant and uninformed". That describes JK, and a good 80% of the people who vote Democrat.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
Dude, you're being ignorant right now. Stop it, or you'll be no better than the "Liberal scum" you oppose.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
First off, there are more reasons why Bush Sr. lost against Clinton, one of them being a man named Ross Perot. Not only that, Bush had a negative campaign, which doesn't always work. Also, Clinton is masterful at playing on the emotions of the populous, which makes him a great liar.
Omega, you seem to not understand something. I'm going to offer some advice, take it or leave it.
The arguments you pose do not convince people of your point of view when you resort to calling them 'ignorant and uninformed.' This doesn't help your cause very much, as it only makes people mad at you. I suggest assuming your opponent has the reasoning capability that you do, and present your facts. If they don't get it, just give it up. People stop listening after you've beaten them upside the head for so long. Case in point; My argument against Jeff Kardde didn't change his mind, it only shut him up. People are stubborn when you prove them wrong, but at least it will create some doubt in their argument.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
------------------
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
Let's see ... ignorant conservatives ...
How about Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura? They both fit the bill pretty well.
But, hey, what do I know? I'm ignorant and uninformed.
Do I agree with what the other Jeff has said? Not really, I believe most of the "lies" Gore has said have been misquotes taken out of context ... i.e, he WAS a model for Oliver Barret in "Love Story" (ask Erich Segal), and he NEVER claimed to invent the internet ... although he did push for government backing. EVEN NEWT GINGRICH has "publicly given Gore credit for encouraging the development of the internet" (Newsweek, Nov. 6, 2000), and also Phjillip Hallam-Baker (who helped create the WWW) has "called the smearing of Gore's reputation 'a calculated piece of political propaganda to deny Gore credit for what is probably his biggest achievement.'"
Does this mean I think JeffR is an ignorant, uninformed conservative? No, I think he's a nice guy, very passionate about what he believes, who is rooting for the wrong guy (sorry, Jeff, but that's how I stand ... "No New Texans" and all)
Note, Omega, I didn't say (and Jeff, this isn't an attack): "JeffR, you smell funny and Phillip Hallam-Baker and Newty-boy back up Gore, so go stuff it!"
And, would this be an ad-homenium that you threw against me Omega? Tsk tsk.
Well informed enough for ya'?
And you also need to remember that Gore crossed party lines to support George Bush in the Gulf War ... even though he was warned it could cost him another presidential nomination (his first was in '88), he stood by his guns, and yes, was one of only 9 Democrats to back George ... (Joe Lieberman was another).
See? Not a nasty word against ya' Omega.
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 31, 2000).]
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
It's not an ad hominem when I'm not trying to proove my point in a debate with it. Nor am I trying to insult you personally. I'm just pointing out that you don't know a thing about the subject, and by continuing to argue about it, have lost all credibility. Without you bothering to learn about the topic, I can not consider you a legitimate debater, JK. Might I suggest the book "More Guns, Less Crime"? Extremely comprehensive study.
"Let's see ... ignorant conservatives... How about Rush Limbaugh?"
Rush isn't ignorant. He knows exactly what he's talking about. You seem to be ignorant of the definition of the word "ignorant"...
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
A state that one can be taught out of, where as stupidity is a lasting thing that one can not hope to be set free from.
Hence the statement: Ignorance of the law is no excuse. One can learn the laws, unless one is stupid.
The reason for the addition of the word stupid is because it is used here often.
------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...
"Well, he has an opinion, and I can't change him to mine, so he/she/it/the four-eyed camel down the street molesting robins/ is ignorant."
It's like when racists call you ignorant, because you can't accept their opinions.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
Think about that. A man casts a vote that may send thousands of men to their deaths... and he decides not on the basis of issues, or need, or anything relevant... but for time in front of TV cameras.
Of course, we've already seen the Clintonian concept of ordering airstrikes when you're having political problems back home...
Still, I hope we're not in a hostile situation with any countries, should Gore ever need to run for RE-election...
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
As for Dr. Laura, well, she's speaking from traditional morals, of which she has a lot of expertise in. Don't like her morals? Don't listen to her then. I'm sure she won't be offended.
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
I guess I was wrong.
Communism in 2000. For the sake of your children, and their beanie babies.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
Are you aware that her doctorate is in PHYSIOLOGY? She's more qualified to coach a fucking LAX team then to give out psychological advice!
And for all her "high morals" that she preaches, she is a hypocrite by:
-posing nude
-having premarital sex in college
-she tells women to "stand by their man" ... never mind that she's divorced and cheated on her previous husband ...
-she don't have a degree in psychology or sociology or a related field, yet feels confident to make people feel that she is qualified to console them by putting her "Dr." title on ... hell, if I got a doctorate in history, would that make me capable of brain surgery?
-Homosexuality is a biological error? Yeah, and Omega has a brain ...
-Had an affair with her current husband ... while HE WAS MARRIED ... that's right, she was the OTHER WOMAN! What a homewrecker ...
-Champion of family values ... and estranged from mother and sister ... ????
The fact is, Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a hypocrite.
Yeah. Dr Laura has got morals. How anyone can say that she does is completely ... ignorant of the facts (look, you didn't know she had a degree in physiology, did you?)
Now, as for "Rush Limbaugh is a big, fat idiot" (he is, by the way) ... are you aware of all his high moral praisings ... of all his denouncments of Bill Clinton, that he has:
Ok: mixed bag here, including factual errors:
Volcanoes do more damage to the Ozone than humans, in his book "THE WAY THINGS OUGHT TO BE" (pp 155-175), "Mt Pinutubo in the Philippines spewed forth more than a thousand times the amount of ozone-depeleting chemicals in one eruption than all the fluorocarebons manufactured by wicked, diabolical and insensitive corporations in history..." he goes on to call those who worry about the ozone "enviormental wackos" and "dunderheaded alarmists and prophets of doom."
Riiiiiiight ... Volcanoes ... yeah, THAT'S the answer!
In Rushland: "Banks take the risks in issuing student loans and they are entitled to the profits" (Radio show, quoted in FRQ, Summer/93"
In reality, banks take no risks in issuing student loans: the loans are federally insured.
In Rushland: "The poorest people in America are better off than the mainstream families of Europe." (Radio show, FRQ, Spring/93)
In Reality, the average cash income of the poorest 20 percent of Americans is $5,226; the average cash income of 4 major European nations (Germany, France, UK, Italy) is $19,708.
In Rushland: "There's no such thing as an implied contract." (Radio show, FRQ, Spring '93)
Reality: every first year law student knows there is...
In Rushland: "Ladies & Gentlemen, we know know why there is this institutional opposition to low tax rates in the liberal wing of the Democratic Party. It's because [low tax rates] are biblical in nature and in root. When you can trace the lowering of tax rates on grain from 90% to 20% giving seven fat years during the days of Pharaoh in Egypt, why then you are tracing the roots of lower taxes and rising prosperity to religion ... You can trace individual prosperity, economic growth back the Bible, the Old Testament ... Isn't it amazing?" (Radio show, 6/28/93)
In Reality: Amazing WRONG! Genesis 41 is about the wisdow of INSTITUTING taxes, not cutting 'em! After Pharoah had a dream that prophesized seven fat years to be followed by seven lean years, Joseph advised himto "appoint officers over the land, and take up the fifth part of the land of Egypt in the seven plenteous years ... and lay up corn under the hands of the Pharaoh." In other words: a 20% tax on the harvest would put aside food for use during the famine. Pharaoh took Joe's advice, and Egypt avoided hunger.
Rushland: "The worst of all of this is the lie than condoms rarely protect against AIDS. The condom failure rate can be as high as 20%..." (Ought To Be, p. 135)
Sorry, Rush ... reality: Dr. Joseph Kelaghan, who evaluated contraceptives for the NIH "there is substantive evidence that condoms prevents transmission if used consistently and properly." A 2-year study of couples in which one partner was HIV-positive ... among the 123 couples who used condoms regularly, there wasn't a single new infection (AP, 8/29/93)
Gee, Rush sure documents himself really well, doesn't he, oh-ye-Conservative nut heads?
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Alan Simpson has long alleged that Al Gore offered his vote for exchange for a prime speaking spot, but there is not a shred of evidence to support that charge.
Weigh the facts: Al Gore WANTED to run for President (he was nominated in '88!). The Democratic party threatened him by telling him that if he voted with Bush, he would NEVER be nominated by the party ... would he trade that for a vote? Keep in mind that at the time, projected US casualties were in the thousands ... there was no way of knowing casualties would be as low as they were.
Sorry, the argument that he gave a vote for a speaking spot is unfounded and has no basis.
And that's the way it is, folks.
"The real costs of war are horrendous. What are the costs and risks if the alternative policy does not work? I think they are larger, greater, and more costly..." - Al Gore, announcing his vote
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
like those nudie photos?? 
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
Oh, the majority doesn't feel that way. Just the ones that are wrong.
JK:
So, so people aren't allowed to make mistakes, repent later, and give out advice to avoid the same pitfalls?
That's all I'm gonna say on the matter, 'cause I don't listen to the woman, and I couldn't care less.
Well, except for...
"Homosexuality is a biological error?"
Well, it's gotta be something, and it can't be genetic, due to natural selection. That's an obvious possibility.
And...
"look, you didn't know she had a degree in physiology, did you?"
Yes, as a matter of fact I did.
OK, next subject, which IINM, JK copied directly out of the book "The Way Things Aren't: Rush Limbaugh's Reign of Error".
"for "Rush Limbaugh is a big, fat idiot"
I read that book. The guy who wrote it is a big, fat idiot. Period.
"Riiiiiiight ... Volcanoes ... yeah, THAT'S the answer!"
Amazing how he doesn't actually counter the argument with fact, ain't it, guys? Of course, by now it shouldn't be so amazing...
"In reality, banks take no risks in issuing student loans: the loans are federally insured."
Only to a point, IIRC. And the laws can change at any time.
The rest may be factual errors, but if you condensed the book down to the real errors, eliminating jokes, bad sources, etc., you'd have about two pages, which for thirteen years on the radio, three on TV, two books, and a long-running newsletter, is pretty darned good.
But under any circumstances... what's your point?
re: Al
Basically, we've got Al's word against Alan's word. Since we've seen Al to be a pathological liar, I'm more inclined to trust Alan. And there was another senator involved. Dole, wasn't it?
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
Rush Limbaugh IS a big fat idiot. Go to that link, Omega. There's SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that volcanoes are not destroying the ozone.
Jesus, Omega ... why don't YOU get some facts?
I honestly do not see how you can go around calling people uninformed when you OBVIOUSLY are.
Al Gore did not trade his vote for a seat. Did you see that he would've given up his hope for a Democratic presidential nomination if the war had gone badly?
If you're the product of home schooling, I fear for the future of America ...
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Next you're going to say that the Boy Scouts are a hate group. Just like you've been spoon-fed to believe...
"Al Gore did not trade his vote for a seat. Did you see that he would've given up his hope for a Democratic presidential nomination if the war had gone badly?"
A: What the heck are you talking about, "a seat"?
B: What were the chances that the war would go badly? I don't care what "experts" said, we at the time had the most powerful military in history.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
At least, that was the general consensus among every INFORMED person I knew at the time.
Al Gore, (and this is COMMON knowledge in Washington) walked into the Senate that morning with TWO speeches, one for the War and one against, because the decision came down to the wire.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited November 01, 2000).]
Second, this is great fun. I wish I lived in America.
No, wait, I don't. Sorry.
Third, if we all live in different realities, can I move into Charisma Carpenter's reality? It's probably better than my current one.
Forth, it's absolutly pissing down here. A whale has just swam up to the window.
Fifth, I can't actually think of anything relevent to say. Er, why don't you vote fascist? They get the job done.
------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
Karrde: When Bush gets elected, what will you do?
------------------
Intelligence, Integrity, Responsibility.
Vote Bush/Cheney 2000
I mistyped, sorry. I meant "speaking spot" not "chair"
Omega, yes, we have the most powerful military. But when we were moving our troops in to Saudi Arabia, they were very vulnerable, and very much outnumbered by the Iraqis.
US Military Intelligence analysts "warned that liberating Kuwait could means U.S. casualties in the thousands." (Newsweek, Nov. 6, 2000)
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
------------------
"Omigod. Singing meat. This is altogether too much."
Actually, Omega, direct from NEWSWEEK:
NEWSWEEK, Nov. 6, 2000
John Barry
American military officers vocally support Bush, expecting him to open the bank. The reality is that under Bush, the services would face upheavel. Gore has defended the status quo, boasting that "our military is the strongest and best in the entire world" - and promising to keep it that way. Bush, by contrast, has called for a "division of labor" with longtime American allies as well as sweeping through unspecified cuts in new weapons programs.
The new president will command a US military that has shrunk by a third since the cold war ended. American forces in Europe have been cut by almost 3/4ths. Nine in every 10 military family members now live on US soil. That has turned the military largely into an expeditionary force - and inspired Bush's charge that the Clinton administration has send underfinanced divisions to meet overstretched commitments. This supposed overstretch is largely a myth. Claims of a threefold increase in deployments under Clinton come from a misread congressional report.
Two regions pose the problems. The Persian Gulf is a huge, new and open-ended US commitment: precisely what Bush has been criticizing, even though it began with his father's failure to topple Iraq's Saddam Hussein. Now 20,000 US troops are stationed in the region, and the Navy's carrier fleet and some scare Air Force aircraft for electronic warfare and command and control have been run ragged by the low level war. Neither candidate has a plausible plan to overthrow Saddam, so the conflict presumably will continue.
In the Balkans, the US Army (active strength: 475,000) complains about the diffculty of keeping 13,000 peacekeepers in Bosnia and Kosovo (one fifth of the NATO force there). The Army's own structural problems are largely to blame. Bush says he would pull US troops out of the Balkans and leave future peacekeeping missions to the Europeans - reserving the US miltary for Big Wars only. European politicians warn this would cost the US its leadership role in NATO, America's main alliance.
Whoever wins, the military faces cuts. The $310 billion defense budget is already larger than the world's next 12 military budget combined, and three times the combined defense spending of Russia, China, and seven "rogue" states, including North Korea and Libya. Still, by some measures, US forces are underfunded. To replace all aging equipment would cost an extra $35 to $60 billion a year. To fully fund operations and maintenance would take at least an additional $10 billion. Neither candidate is promising that kind of money. Gore talks of an extra $100 billion over 10 years. Bush promises $45 billion, going mainly for research and development to hasten the next generation of weapons.
Here Bush appears the radical. Looking to predict advances in computers, sensors and communications, he would "skip a generation" of weapons and instead push toward the truly revolutionary generation after next. That, says Gore, would be to gamble on uncertain future technologies."
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
NBC = Nuclear/Biological/Chemical
The US thought wrong when the USSR split apart, because of the stabilizing effects of 2 super powers. Now, with the lopsided balance of power, smaller nations want to flex their muscles. The US should not have made such cuts, I was depressed when my first division, 3rd Armored, was deactivated. Maybe making smaller units, brigades and battalions to back up lighter units of leg/airborne/air assault divisions.
The US fucked up, plain and simple. Fixing this FUBAR is going to cost.
------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited November 01, 2000).]
How do you see the US Military in the future? Mobile and powerful?
What about the role the military will play? Do we play peacekeeper to the world, or only when our interests are threatened?
------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
*snicker*
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
"I don't believe we can be all things... to all people."
The military's job is to protect American interests.
------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"
You know, maybe this is just me, but I really don't see how the most powerful nation in the world can simply stand by and do *nothing* when people are being repressed and killed.
When I see a big bully knocking down someone smaller than him, I like to step in.
So should the U.S.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
quote:
You know, maybe this is just me, but I really don't see how the most powerful nation in the world...When I see a big bully knocking down someone smaller than him, I like to step in.
So should the U.S.
Yeah. You guys do a hell of a lot for world peace. Nevermind the fact that your noses are sore from being buried in the affairs of countries of which you have no business.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
I think we should help.
My grandfather landed on Normandy, and I lost several family members during both World Wars. I'd rather have our troops helping keep the peace in Europe then have to face a larger conflict.
First, you were dragged through the streets of Mogadishu?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Or is Somalia only a memory?
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
And what about Kosovo?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
I'll hug your elephant if you'll kiss my ass.
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Oh how very G.I. Joe.
Kosovo was a Vietnam Jr. Except you guys didn't end up it Prison camps.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
On the subject of world policing.....
When I was in I had signed up to do what the polis and stars decided needed to be done. Whether is was to invade a nation or help with giving food and shelter to those in trouble. So don't do to much defensive posturing for the troops involoved, it is a given that you are at the mercy of those that are elected and promoted in to positions of power. You do pray/hope that they will not do anything stupid, but you know it happens. Each one knows that they sign up for things that are NOT going to as pleasant as getting shot and killed out right.
------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.
Vote Communist Party of America 2000.