Let's try something new. Instead of throwing statistics and screaming at each other ... why don't we discuss ways we can make our society more safe through our favorite subject I'm sure -- GUN CONTROL!

What works? What doesn't work? Why do some European countries have very few gun related incidents (both those which arm every citizen and those which ban ownership of the things?)

WHAT DOES THE NEXT ADMINISTRATION OF THIS VERY FUCKED UP COUNTRY (that is, the US of A) HAVE TO DO TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU AND I (in the very general sense) DON'T GET BLOWN AWAY BY SOME TRIGGER HAPPY FOOL?

Shall we begin?

------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore

The countries which have fewer gun related incidents might do that because their society isn't so fucked up that people feel the need to declare that they love a bisexual dwarf infront of their husband on national TV, a society full of people so desperate to place blame (and not accept responsibilty) that they declare harmless cartoons involving a little yellow electric mouse evil and responsible for everything that's wrong in the world, a society that's so completely screwed that kids walk into their own schools and start murdering their fellow pupils.

Hey, I know, let's blame music, and TV! Cause it can't be the parents who refuse to discipline their kids, that don't teach them the difference between right and wrong, who treat them like shit; they can't possibly be what's wrong.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

------------------
"Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps."
- Tiger Woods

 

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

*bludgeons UM with a Norway-class*

But now to the question at hand...

Now since laws affecting gun ownership nearly by definition don't affect criminals, you have to take into account that the legislation only affects law-abiding citizens. You'll always have criminals with guns, short of eliminating ALL of them, so the optimal solution is to let any law-abiding citizen own a gun, but keep as many out of the hands of children and criminals as possible. Enforcing the laws that already exist would be a good place to start. They include instant background checks, and disallowing the sale of firearms to anyone with a criminal record. Good start. Then there's Bush's plan to raise the age at which one can own a gun to 21. Also good.

Obviously, there's not much you can do to completely eliminate the chance of running into a nut with a gun (AKA a criminal). Your best bet is to be able to defend yourself if you do.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

------------------
"Two parts slush...one part solid ice...one part hard-packed snow...a dash of assorted debris...sculpt into sphere, and serve at high velocity without warning." --Calvin

 

One way to do that? If your gun is stolen, you have to pay a steep fine and possibly risk jail time. Extreme, I know, but lots of people buy guns then give or sell it to someone else and report it stolen. With these kind of penalties, people would be VERY careful about where their guns were at all times. And this way, a person could only do a straw-purchase one time: and then s/he'd NEVER be allowed to purchase any type of firearm again...

------------------
"[Smith] ran on an agenda that was revolutionary for his time -- a 45 cent minimum wage, limiting the workweek to six days, building a bridge to the 1930's -- and I want to say it's quite a tribute to Al Smith that Governor Bush has adopted the same agenda." - Al Gore

Someone's gonna haveta explain this Defiant thing to me...

------------------
"So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts"

- Bloodhound Gang
 

------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000 - a step forward into the new millennia

 

And what of the people who's guns really ARE stolen? Should they have no right to defend themselves because of their bad luck? Some statistics might be nice...

Although perhaps reporting your gun stolen, say, twice in six months would be sufficient cause to start an investigation. But certainly not disarmament without being convicted of a crime.

And shouldn't that .sig be "new millenium"? "Millenia" is plural.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited October 26, 2000).]
 

Stiffer penalties would have to be directed at these people to control weapons in this country.

To police up the problem that we have here in the US I have a feeling that a lot of people are going to have law suits against the Government. The law abiding citizens are going to have to deal with some things that we won't want to deal with.

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

In some states, using a gun in a crime tacks a manditory 5 YEARS on your sentence, no matter what the crime... but it's very rarely enforced.

Richmond, Virginia just started enforcing that and similar laws a few years ago, and from what I hear, crime has dropped upwards of 40% above and beyond the nationwide drop.

Oh, get this. The year with the record number of school shootings/firearms incidents?

1993. Nationwide, It's actually on the decline, despite Columbine and the media blitz. Difference? Those kids was white.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

True, on laws, there are several laws of all types that don't get enforced. There are also laws that get enforced that a lame by todays standards. Like the guy that the police arrested here in Michgan for cussing in public, in front of women and children really. The cop shouldn't have been that bored.
------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited October 26, 2000).]
 

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them.

If you build it, they will come.

Of course, 'it' is a ballfield, and 'they' are dead pro baseball players, but I still think it fits this situation perfectly.

------------------
"Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps."
- Tiger Woods

 

"If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have them."

And if you outlaw murder, only outlaws will murder people. Doesn't this fall under some category of circular logic? :-)

Oh, and two things, Omega. First, neither "millenium" nor "millenia" is a word (unless you count the Millenium Falcon). The words are "millennium" and "millennia". And if someone wants to usher in the new millennia, I'm sure they can, though they're not going to be around to see more than one of those...

And the other thing is that I believe that color-change joke was a reference to the use of the words "was white", as in past tense.

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

"And if you outlaw murder, only outlaws will murder people. Doesn't this fall under some category of circular logic?"

That's not circular logic. It's a logical conclusion. Obviously, if you outlaw murder (we'll ignore the fact that murder is illegal by definition), then only outlaws will murder people, since, by murdering someone, they will become outlaws.

Are you saying that it does not follow that if you criminalize gun ownership, then only criminals will own guns? If so, you're a twit.

And you're certainly not going to argue that the best circumstances are those under which ONLY the criminals have guns. We've seen what that does in Brittain.

re: Millennium

Again, spelling isn't my best category.

*"Two 'L's, Two 'N's...*

"I believe that color-change joke was a reference to the use of the words "was white", as in past tense."

IIRC, they're dead, so that would be the appropriate tense to use...

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

"Obviously, if you outlaw murder (we'll ignore the fact that murder is illegal by definition), then only outlaws will murder people, since, by murdering someone, they will become outlaws."

Look at this guy... Even when he goes and explains the point I was making, he still doesn't get it...

I'll type this slowly, so you can understand it, Omega. If something is illegal, only criminals will do it, because doing it makes them criminals. Therefore it's utterly pointless to make such an arguement, since it basically just repeats itself. What meaning does it have to say only criminals do illegal things? The only real response to such an arguement is "No shit, Sherlock.", or some variation thereof.

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

And to your right you will see a man who does not recognize that there are multiple definitions of the word "criminal".

*/TourGuideSpeak*

"Criminal" can also be defined as someone who doesn't have any respect for the law, and thus doesn't care when they break it. THIS kind of criminal isn't going to turn over his guns if they're outlawed. Thus, to be even MORE simplistic about it: "If ownership of a firearm is made illegal, then only those who have no respect for laws will own firearms." This is a logical conclusion. Do you really want only people who have no respect for the law to be the only ones with guns? You know, like in England?

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

I am a criminal, although my crimes are traffic violations, and not murder. I am still guilty of usually doing 5 mph over the speed limit, and the rolling 'stops'.

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

BRING ON THE FRENCH WHORES!!

------------------
"Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps."
- Tiger Woods

 

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

A) Protect your rights faster?

B) Provide an even bigger detterent for criminals?

------------------
"Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps."
- Tiger Woods

 

Branch Dividians ring any bells, they were over zealous in the right to self defense from the U.S. Government.

What was the intention of the 2nd Amendment? The right to self defense. But from whom??? Your next door neighbor or the Government?

Remember, the 2nd Amendment was written just after a government was overthrown.

The answer is????

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

"This violates the spirit of the second ammendment."

You're joking, right? If not, you obviously don't know jack-shit about the second amendment, assuming you've ever actually read it, so I think it's safe to say your arguement is void...

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000 - a step forward into the new millennium

1. The person reporting the incident is an idiot, doesn't know the difference between automatic, semi-auto, and other types of weapons, or doesn't care and is using scare tactics to sell the story (see: Most media types)

2. It actually IS an automatic weapon, the existence of which must be laid at the feet of inadequate law enforcement, and criminals.

When reading the Second Amendment, it is necessary to use what you learned in elementary English grammar to realize that the bit about the 'well-regulated militia' is a subordinate clause, and that the real object of the paragraph is 'The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.' The Militia bit is only a REASON, for the object to be what it is, and not necessarily the SOLE reason.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Er, we have?

"Do you really want only people who have no respect for the law to be the only ones with guns? You know, like in England?"

It's true. Gangs are rampant. My parents have been shot muiltiple times this week alone. Damn it.

Now, people didn't kick up much of a fuss when guns were (essentially) banned over here. They thought it was a Good Thing. Now, either everyone in Britain is a moron, or the government is obviously controlling us with the floride in the drinking water, so that when they announce that Tony Blair is really Hitler's son, and he declares matrial law, and that we know live in a dictatorship, we won't be able to do anything (possibly due to the flouride having stuck out teeth together. Or something).

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

When you've got unarmed cops up against criminals with automatics, yes, we have.

"Now, either everyone in Britain is a moron"

Oh, you set yourself up for that one.

So tell me, Liam. Who in Brittain owns the majority of the guns, besides your military?

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Omega: Is that USS Brittain, the misspelled starship?

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

or
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

[Fixed link]

[This message has been edited by The Shadow (edited October 29, 2000).]
 

Because a well regulated militia is nesecary to maintain the freedom of the people, the government may not infringe upon the people's rights to own and carry weapons.

Anyone think that this doesn't mean the same, thing before I go on?

TSN:

What is your basis for that conclusion? 'Cause I'm basing mine on the actual wording of the law, and the words of the people who made it.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

Now that we have an outrageously well-funded military to defend us, a "well-regulated militia" is not necessary any longer, therefore this amendment ought to be repealed, anyway.

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

The Gentlemen that wrote this Amendment had recently overthrown their Government, which is the purpose of the Second Amendment. This is so we have the ability to do like we did, because they wanted us to have the same chance we did. They knew, above everyone else, that a Government can go out of control, and We the people must have a way to protect ourselves from it.

This clause has two points in it, the states get a well regulated militia, the National Guard, and the people of the US have the right to keep and bare arms.

If you take the Second Amendment at face value you are snubbing your nose at Washington, telling him that what he and his associates did was for nothing. And by repealing it you are telling these same men that we might have just as well remained under British rule, for now, just over 200 years later, we will allow our government to do whatever it wants and we will take it.

In the gasoline thread we bitched about the price of gas, but we never talked about the taxes added on to it. Which, yes, someplaces suspended or lowered. But taxes were the last straw then.

So, in conclusion, gun control is a form of Government we can not have, looking at our founding fathers point of view.

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

Tim:

"Now that we have an outrageously well-funded military to defend us, a "well-regulated militia" is not necessary any longer, therefore this amendment ought to be repealed, anyway."

My friend, your irrationality never ceases to amaze me. As we've been through before, privately owned guns are to defend your rights, against threats from whatever quarter. A: that's not the military's job. The intent of the military is to defend us from EXTERNAL threats, of which there are thankfully few. B: there is NO organization capable of defending you against all threats. The only sure way to do it is to do it yourself. C: What if the military itself BECAME the threat?

Tell me, Tim: give me the sequence of events that you think would follow the repellation of the second ammendment?

Why are you libs so set on eliminating my right to own a gun that you become irrational, anyway? I don't see it.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

------------------
"Two parts slush...one part solid ice...one part hard-packed snow...a dash of assorted debris...sculpt into sphere, and serve at high velocity without warning." --Calvin

 

Ultra: Last I checked, there were gays in pretty much every country. What's that got to do w/ guns?

Omega:

"Tell me, Tim: give me the sequence of events that you think would follow the repellation of the second ammendment?"

Er... I don't know. WTF does "repellation" mean?

------------------
"You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend."
-Yasir Arafat on religious wars
 

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

But it's less a "define me", as a "we need ta fai'ght 'gainst tha oppresive gov'ment.".

------------------
"Hockey is a sport for white men. Basketball is a sport for black men. Golf is a sport for white men dressed like black pimps."
- Tiger Woods

 

In their defense though, they did make the Simpsons. So it's not all bad.

------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

Misspelling. To rephrase: exactly what do you think would happen if we repealed the second ammendment?

Shik:

Sounds more like a strict Libertarian than me. Already stated my posit on weapons o' mass destruction. Funny anyway.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

YOU (personally) have no right to own a gun. You're too young. So how can we eliminate something you don't have?

That would be like threatening to have my Toyota towed.

(I don't own a Toyota)

=)

I can't WAIT to hear your answer to that.

But frankly, I don't want people to own guns because I'm sick and tired of reading of road rage incidents that end with gunshots and deaths. I'm sick and tired of reading of children getting shot by their young classmates (where do you think they get their guns, hmmm?).

QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE A GUN BECAUSE I DON'T TRUST YOU TO GO OUT AND GET DRUNK AND DECIDE TO SHOOT ME!

I don't trust you to pull out your gun and shoot me after I cut you off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway.

I don't trust you to keep a trigger lock on said gun so your kid can't pick it up and decide to blow my kid's brain out (and, Omega, you did say earlier in another post that you would leave a trigger-lock unlocked, BTW).

Enough reasons?

------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 30, 2000).]
 

It's sad and pathetic when someone thinks they've made a legitimate point by nitpicking.

Did it live up to your expectations?

"But frankly, I don't want people to own guns because I'm sick and tired of reading of road rage incidents that end with gunshots and deaths. I'm sick and tired of reading of children getting shot by their young classmates (where do you think they get their guns, hmmm?)."

Oh, so you'd rather read about ten times the number of murders you read about now? You keep ignoring the fact that private citizens use guns two MILLION times a year to prevent crimes. And that's from the FBI. Show me that the same number of crimes are COMMITTED with guns every year that couldn't be committed otherwise, and then you might have a point.

"QUITE FRANKLY, I DON'T WANT YOU TO HAVE A GUN BECAUSE I DON'T TRUST YOU TO GO OUT AND GET DRUNK AND DECIDE TO SHOOT ME!"

And I'm called paranoid...

If I was drunk, I wouldn't be able to shoot the broadside of a barn, you moron. Judgement isn't the only thing that alcohol affects. Go look up how many alcohol-related gun fatalities there are in a year. You also might want to look up exactly what alcohol does to your CNS. It reduces the quality of your judgements, slows reaction time, and lowers inhibitions. Basically, I'd only shoot you if I REALLY hated you in the first place, and I tend to pity the ignorant, not shoot them.

"I don't trust you to pull out your gun and shoot me after I cut you off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway."

We'll ignore the fact that that'd be nearly impossible. Again, go look up the number of deaths like that. This is another liberal falacy: perfectly normal people suddenly become maniacs when you put a gun in their hands, and then revert when you take it away. The world doesn't work that way. Get used to it.

"I don't trust you to keep a trigger lock on said gun so your kid can't pick it up and decide to blow my kid's brain out"

Again, how many kids get killed by other kids with guns every year? I'm talking real kids, like, under fourteen, not under 22. And how many of those involve kids that aren't smart enough to unlock the gun? Why don't you actually do some RESEARCH, and find the truth for yourself, instead of just accepting what you're spoonfed?

"Omega, you did say earlier in another post that you would leave a trigger-lock unlocked, BTW."

Yet again, you're assuming that I'd be irresponsible enough to leave the gun where the kid can actually get to the thing, which I wouldn't. Regardless of what you've been indoctrinated with, the majority of people are sane, responsible people who care about their children.

"Enough reasons?"

There wasn't a shred of reason in your entire post. Correct that and get back to me.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

And of those two million (and where in the UCR did you find that? 'cuz I looked through it, and I didn't see that number anywhere - be more specific), how many were lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to scare off other lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to commit illegal deeds?

Where would you hide your gun, Omega? Under the bed? Under a pillow? I know, maybe on the top shelf of your closet. I doubt you'd buy a gun safe (take too long to open?) if you wouldn't utilize a trigger-lock. This is what I'm talking about -- irresponsibility with gun ownership.

It would be very possible for me to cut someone off at 90 miles an hour on the Beltway. I don't drive on 695 often, but I've cut people off at that speed before (and had the same to do to me). It wouldn't be hard for someone to follow me where I'm going and shoot me. Maybe you've heard of something called Road Rage? Yes? Rational people + Automobiles = Irrational people. And you could attack me with anything -- a flashlight, a club ... but if you've got a gun, that would probably be your weapon of choice, yes?

And if you're drunk, and we're standing in the same room together, I have no doubt you could hit me. And you yourself admited that it did lower a person's judgement, so how can you be so sure that you wouldn't want to kill me? Have you ever been drunk? If not, you can't really say what you would or would not do. Everyone reacts differently to alochol -- some get violent, some get mellow. You might very well try and shoot me, and even if you DIDN'T hit me, just pulling the gun out would be enough to prove my point.

How many kids under 14 get killed? Well, look at that shooting in Arkansas or Alabama a year or so back. I forget the name of the school, but as I recall, it was an elementary school and the shooters were well under 14 themselves. Where do you think those children got their guns from? The big-bad-crack-dealing black man on the city corner? No, mommy and daddy's closet shelf.

Oh, and its not "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns."

It's: "If you outlaw guns, only Republicans will own guns."

------------------
Friends Don't Let Friends Vote Republican
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

 

Then look harder. Everyone else here seems to have heard it.

"And of those two million, how many were lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to scare off other lawfully-licensed handgun owners using their handguns to commit illegal deeds?"

What exactly do you mean, lawfully licenced? I don't have to have a licence to own a gun. 'Least, not unless Gore gets elected. Under any circumstances, how is this relevant?

"Where would you hide your gun, Omega?"

Likely in a firebox on the top shelf of my closet, with the key in my nightstand drawer. I might think of a better arrangement, though. And that's only when I wouldn't be using it to teach my kid to fear the thing. The best way to keep a kid from using a gun is to teach the kid to fear it. Works for oven's, don't it?

"Rational people + Automobiles = Irrational people."

Again, the world doesn't work that way. The people have to be irrational in the first place to actually chase someone down like that.

"And if you're drunk, and we're standing in the same room together, I have no doubt you could hit me."

Do you have any clue how hard it is to hit a moving person from across a room when you're sober? 'Bout the only way I could kill you while drunk is if you were standing two feet away, and you'd have to be a moron to get anywhere NEAR that close to a violent drunk.

"And you yourself admited that it did lower a person's judgement, so how can you be so sure that you wouldn't want to kill me?"

You really need to pay attention to what you're arguing against. I'd have to hold a good bit of animosity toward you in the first place, to want to kill you when my inhibitions and judgement weren't in play.

"Have you ever been drunk? If not, you can't really say what you would or would not do."

Not true. I know the effects of alcohol on the CNS (unlike you, I might add). I know my own mind. Therefore, I can predict how I would act under the influence of alcohol. Being drunk doesn't make one's actions totally random.

"Everyone reacts differently to alochol -- some get violent, some get mellow."

Based upon their own personality and temperment.

"How many kids under 14 get killed? Well, look at that shooting in Arkansas or Alabama a year or so back."

That doesn't answer the question. Yes, school shootings happen on rare occasion, but that has absoltely nothing to do with the number of children killed with guns each year.

"Oh, and its not "If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will own guns."

It's: "If you outlaw guns, only Republicans will own guns.""

Do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounded?

I have a suggestion for you, Jeff. For the sake of your own reputation, go check out a few books on logic and debating at your local library. You need to learn how to think in a coherant manner. You NEVER respond to the actual point made. You NEVER do your own research. You inflict ignorance of the topic on yourself, expect others to keep you informed, then deny the information supplied. And THEN, having no knowledge of what you're talking about, proceed to debate the topic anyway!

Either make some pretense at actually trying to make a coherant argument, or back off. Your only other option is to continue making a fool of yourself.

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

------------------
Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited October 31, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited October 31, 2000).]
 

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

Prove it.

------------------
Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.

Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
 

------------------
Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

Don't hold your breath for my action,, but that number IS out there.

------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

That first link links to a page which says that OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT FIGURES are 80,000 ... NOT TWO MILLION.

Government figures would be the UCR. Two million my ass.

------------------
Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

Okay, lets start with the oven/gun analogy. Your child will fear the oven ...

a) because it is off and is not hot
b) because it is on and hot and they burn themselves
c) because they like to sleep on top of it
d) because you tell them to

"B" is correct! A child fears what causes them pain. Ergo, if the oven is hot, and they touch it, they'll tend not to repeat the experience.

A child will fear a gun ...

a) because it is too big for them to hold?
b) because you shot them in the foot to teach them the same lesson burning 'em on the oven did
c) you tell them to
d) you pinched them with it when releasing the clip

Hmmm? Maybe they'll fear it if you tell them to, but they probably won't fear it till you shoot them ... if you're using the rationality that a burning oven will make them fear it. Capishe?

It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict how you'd react to alcohol. Ask anyone who has gotten drunk. I've known people who have tried to pull swords to break up parties ... sheeesh. Look, if you know yourself, that is all well and great ... but you add alcohol, and its a totally different story. It really is. And if you've got a 10-round clip, and you start squeezin' that trigger, you've got ten chances to hit me ... and I don't much care for those odds.

How is a firebox a better option than a trigger lock?

Road Rage ... tricky topic, ain't it?

Dr Leon James, Road Rage Testimony

[URL=http://www.angelfire.com/al/alyplace/index.html]RoadRage...Personal

(DAMMIT! Why can't I get these links working? Oh, right, I'm an ignorant, uninformed liberal ... thanks, Omega...)

Now tell me armed men committing road rage aren't dangerous.

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
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"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited October 31, 2000).]
 

Not EVERY person that suffers road rage and is armed is going to kill someone.

Although the chances increase. Like some of the cops that beat or shoot a person that has them running the streets and roads at 90 mph. This is a case of road rage, but not every cop does it.

Omega, thinking that you can predict what you will be like after having a few is wrong. When I was drinking I would be a great guy sometimes, a crying drunk sometimes, and my evil twin would visit sometimes. And the way the day went before I hit the bar didn't matter. Alcohol will twist a mind in to something that you have never seen before. It will also cause you to turn a vehicle in to a weapon of mass destruction. Which is a danger we face more daily than getting shot. Which needs more or better control? Maybe a People Control is better than Gun or Alcohol Control!!!

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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

You've never had kids, have you, JK? I never burned myself on the stove. I simply feared the thing because my parents told me what'd happen if I touched it. And if I'd tried to, a good swat to the butt would have set me straight.

"b) because you shot them in the foot to teach them the same lesson burning 'em on the oven did"

Sir, if you can infer that from what I said, you are truely a moron.

"How is a firebox a better option than a trigger lock?"

Have you ever seen anyone try to disengage a trigger lock? I could get the box down and open it in twenty seconds, in the dark, with sweaty hands. To disengage a trigger lock under those conditions is, for all intents and purposes, impossible.

Ritten:

"Like some of the cops that beat or shoot a person that has them running the streets and roads at 90 mph. This is a case of road rage, but not every cop does it."

I feel compelled to point out, though it's completely irrelevant, that this is exactly what lead to the whole thing with Rodeny King.

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

Club Control????

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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

Or, for a less drastic approach, we could try communism. It seems to me that no other band-aid will heal the wound of this great nation.

*cough*

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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.

Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
 

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

In another post, you're talking about getting your "first" job, yet you imply that you've got children here?

Dude, don't contradict yourself like that.

Ok, your parents told you ... what? If you touch the oven, you'll hurt yourself?

So you tell your kid (when you have one), "if you touch my gun, you'll shoot yourself" ... yet, I thought you said you would never allow your child to find your gun, much less work the trigger? So why warn him/her?

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

"Ok, your parents told you ... what? If you touch the oven, you'll hurt yourself?"

Something like that. Then they gave me a good swat if I tried to anyway. Enough to keep me away.

"So you tell your kid (when you have one), "if you touch my gun, you'll shoot yourself""

No, I'd tell my kid, "You see this? It's a gun. Guns are REAL dangerous. So NEVER pick one up, you hear me? If you see a gun, run away as fast as you can and come tell me. But don't touch it." Something along those lines, anyway.

"yet, I thought you said you would never allow your child to find your gun, much less work the trigger? So why warn him/her?"

Because I can't be around my kid 24/7, unfortunately. Gotta trust him/her to some degree.

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

I also saw the results frequently when he went hunting... such as a groundhog with its inside on the outside. GROSS.

He then talked with me about gun safety, and the three major rules.

He then told me where his guns were kept, which ones were loaded, and that if he EVER caught me having handled one without permission, or even suspected that I'd touched one, he would SKIN ME ALIVE. I believed him, because he ALWAYS followed through on punishments.

Those together were enough to keep me perfectly safe in a house owned by a gun collector / hunter / firearms dealer for nearly THIRTY years.

As they would be for anyone with two active brain cells.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Yes, it was that good a joke. People's heads would have burst.

You know that pain you're feeling? That's "joke-rage".

(as a side note, I'm amazed we've got this far without some self-satisfied git going 'well, I wouldn't touch alcohol anyway, as only morons need alcohol to enjoy stuff, I'm far to good for it, blah blah blah I own a Star Trek uniform blah blah computer's are fun and interesting blah blah internet porn blah' and so on).

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"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
 

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Pilot: You're sure they were Americans, eh?
Fraser: They were all wearing new boots, they were driving a Jeep Wrangler, and they carried big guns.
Pilot: Americans it is.
- "due South"

 

That actually sounds like a good way to keep a child afraid of guns. I don't disbelieve that your father did a good job of keeping you from treating a gun as a toy.

But, we live in a society where guns are glamourized. Murder is commenplace in TV shows, where the heroes blast fifteen guys away then go out for a beer. And children like to play with guns ... toys, we can hope, but ...

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

quote:

---

But, we live in a society where guns are glamourized. Murder is commenplace in TV shows, where the heroes blast fifteen guys away then go out for a beer. And children like to play with guns ... toys, we can hope, but ...

---

I don't want this to turn into a whole 'fuck the media! it messes up our kids' debate, but I'd think you'd be extremely hard pressed to find ANY crime that was committed because someone saw something on TV that was cool.

I like Gladiator. I don't wrestle tigers because it was glorified, they'd hurt me, and Lord knows how I hate pain. Agonizing, throbbing pain, that spreads through your body like when you bonk your head on the corner of the table after you fell of you chair and couldn't catch yourself because your hands were still down your pants from masturbating to nude pictures of Dr. Laura, and when your parents hear your fall, they come upstairs and see what's on your screen.

Anyway, I seem to have forgotten my point. My point is that fish are not supposed to be on pizza. The Italians didn't call ir 'Fishzza', so get those anchovies the fuck of my pizza.

Refute that, you right-wingers.

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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.

Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
 

After the movie was released, a couple kids decided to react the scene and were killed.

Does anyone remember the movie? This was about 10 years ago.

I'm not saying that kids are going to see someone get shot in a movie and go get a gun and shoot someone ... but guns ARE glamourized in films. Shootouts are commonplace. Can you deny that?

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
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Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

As to the movie... If some folks are stupid enough to copy something like that that happens in a movie... they deserve being run over. Think of it as evolution in action.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

I have a bumpersticker on my Jeep: BUY A SWORD/NO WAITING

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Read My Lips: NO NEW TEXANS!
***
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush

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Stupid bastards and religious freaks,
so safe in their castle keeps...

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Equality, Cooperation & Benevolence.

Vote Communist Party of America 2000.
 

"Go, Lucky! Use your 'sit there and look pissed-off' attack"

"Woah. Watch out Muffin. Counter with your 'lick your own paws' attack".

Unless some kids actually do manage to find an electric rat, I think we're safe.

Now, Dragon Ball Z. That causes much pain. You know how many children I've seen die because their mates got pissed-off, and thrown a fire-ball at them? 27. Not including my brother. That'll teach him for growing taller than me.

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"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS