If no one gets a majority, then the election goes to congress. It looks like this MAY be possible, due to strange laws in FL, and Gore dragging things out like he is. Now if this happens, the House decides on the president, and the senate on the VP. Every state deligation gets a single vote in the house, and neither party controls enough deligations to elect their cantidate. Since the GOP controls the senate, Cheney would get the VPcy, and since you'd have a deadlock in the House, and thus no president, Cheney would become president in January.
Of course, since we'd have a deadlocked senate in that case, and no VP, there'd be no way to break a tie, which is too bad. It might be interesting to see Cheney appoint Bush as VP, resign, then get appointed himself...
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
But, yes, there have been glaring ... "problems" in the Florida election, and I think they need to be looked into. I've already said in another post that the "Buchannan ballot" thing is really a non-issue: people should've complained about that when they went to vote.
But I've heard reports on CNN that black voters were turned away from polling places ... and that makes me wonder quite a bit.
You're also wrong to assume that Cheney would become President -- the Senate would *have* to pick someone ... its not like they can declare a mistrial! And, is it the pre- or post- election HoR and Senate?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 09, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 09, 2000).]
Apparently, the "ballot" sent to homes before the election (so people can see it) was DIFFERENT from the one actually used ... it only displayed the arrows, and not the holes you had to punch.
In Md, we vote by arrows. It would look like:
Gore, Al <-- --
Bush, George <-- --
To vote, you fill in the arrow, like so:
Gore, Al <---------
Bush, George <-- --
Maybe that's what people in Florida thought. This also makes the whole thing a bit more than just a "they shoulda looked at the sample" harder ... Florida also stated that they wouldn't know the outcome until Sept. 17th ...
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Who said anything about the recount? He's dragging it out with legal challenges.
"And, is it the pre- or post- election HoR and Senate?"
It's the congress that is currently in office that would decide, since it would take place before inauguration day.
"You're also wrong to assume that Cheney would become President -- the Senate would *have* to pick someone ... its not like they can declare a mistrial!"
And what if the house (I assume you meant house, not senate) COULDN'T decide? Exactly what do you think happens if they don't come to a decision before inauguration? Bill just stays in office to do us a "favor" until it's sorted out?
"Florida also stated that they wouldn't know the outcome until Sept. 17th ..."
You mean November, I presume? 'Cause that's when the absentee balots have to be in by. Assuming they were sent out at all, because there are many stories of personnel not receiving theirs...
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
"Sir, the Iraqis are being tits again."
"Iraq -- what -- oh my hear--."
*thump*
And the curse of the '0''s continues.
------------------
Communism. The most socialist of all the 'ism's. It's in you to vote.
Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Actually, a re-election in that one county wouldn't be a bad thing ... literaly *everyone* would go to vote, so who knows how it would turn out?
I doubt the House would have the option of not-choosing. If that would mean locking them up until they came to a decision, so be it.
Again, you're confusing what Gore's Campaign Managers are doing to what Gore is doing. Keep in mind, CNN reported about the strange ballots *before* they even took Florida *away* from him the first time, yet the VP was ready to concede (and then the gap got MUCH smaller, so he recanted his call to Bush).
I honestly doubt that Gore would not concede if he loses Florida.
Omega, be careful about your liberal comments. This *isn't* the flameboard (did you notice?) Yet you're treading on dangerous grounds ... and anyway, more people want Gore in office than Bush, so nyah-nyah!
Oh, and no one had to trump up anything about Bush being dumb ... he did enough of that himself.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 09, 2000).]
You're a perfect example of what I was talking about. You can't point to any evidence that Bush is dumb, yet you believe it anyway.
"I doubt the House would have the option of not-choosing. If that would mean locking them up until they came to a decision, so be it."
You can't force a group of people to agree. You have yet to answer the question of proceedure. What if the house DOESN'T choose? How can you force them to?
"Again, you're confusing what Gore's Campaign Managers are doing to what Gore is doing."
Oh, yes. REAL important difference. I forgot that Gore doesn't run the Gore Campiagn...
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Bush hasn't proved his intelligence by mis-statements such as the one in my sig ... but, this is an argument for the "Flameboard" ...
Hey, if it comes down to the House flipping coins ... I don't think they have an *option* not too choose, do they? That might leave us in limbo, with whoever the Senate picked as VP running things, but I really doubt the House could say "yeah, we can't pick 'em, so, we can either pick Nader, or you can have 'em as Co-Presidents ..."
The Florida vote is too close to call, Omega ... there are a lot of irregularities, and people need more info before anyone goes whining about either candidate dragging stuff out.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
Adams was also a really sucky president, but I'll hold off on my opinion on Bush's if he wins after the term's over.
------------------
"Life sucks, then you die"
------------------
"The distinction between past, present, and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion."
--Albert Eistein
Gore has won the Popular Vote, no matter what
Bush will probably win Florida
Despite who wins Florida, I think there should be a Federal investigation. Something rather fishy happened down there in regards to the investigation. I also think this whole thing is going to blow up in Jeb's face, and he'll have a fight on his hand for any other public office he tries to run for in Florida.
Bush might start out despised, but might gain popularity. Of course, he might not. The first indication will be the elections in two years.
If Gore doesn't gain the White House in 2000, he *will* be back in '04, so Bush had better do a damned good job -- because I find it quite likely that Dubya and his daddy will also find themselves sharing only one term in Office.
*IF* Bush wins ... I want to hear him respond to the following question (he avoided it in his statement yesterday):
How do you feel being the President of the US, when more Americans voted *against* you than *for* you?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 09, 2000).]
uumm, I think maybe it's suposed to be the Vice President. I hope it gets that far just to see what happens.
------------------
All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.
Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.
Bob Dylan
------------------
"Life sucks, then you die"
"Bush hasn't proved his intelligence by mis-statements such as the one in my sig"
So he's made some misstatments. What's your point? Gore couldn't remember the word "mammogram". Does that make him an idiot, too?
"I don't think they have an *option* not too choose, do they?"
Again, how can they be forced to choose? You're not making any sense.
"I really doubt the House could say "yeah, we can't pick 'em, so, we can either pick Nader, or you can have 'em as Co-Presidents ..."
Obviously not. I wasn't suggesting anything of the kind. IIR my constitution correctly, they have to choose between the two who got the most electoral votes. Thus they have to vote between Gore and Bush.
*looks*
Ah, ammendment twelve:
"...if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest nubers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice."
And here's the important part:
"And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following [this would now be noon, January 20th, because of the twentieth ammendment], then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the president."
So there you go.
"The Florida vote is too close to call, Omega"
No, it's not. Bush got over 1,700 more votes than Gore, a number which, when adding all 53 counties that had at last report sent their numbers to the state, had not changed. That's not too close to call.
"there are a lot of irregularities"
Such as? The perfectly legal ballot (look at the state constitution) that was also used in Illinois, where Gore won and no one's complaining? The people who marked their ballots twice, in which case it's perfectly legal to throw them out? The box of crayons? These are all trumped-up charges to drag this out.
Vanguard:
"if BUsh wins, then he'd have won the electoral votes but lost the popular vote"
Not nesecarily. We've still got absentee ballots coming in and being counted, the military, and a couple more possible recounts. Bush is only down by, what, 90,000 at this point? I don't particularly care about the popular vote, but still...
"I'll hold off on my opinion on Bush's if he wins after the term's over."
A wise choice. Perhaps you could influence those around you in the forum.
Ziyal:
"Basically Gore has the popular vote."
As above, not nesecarily.
"If Bush wins by a few HUNDRED votes in Florida (leading by 225 votes as of now)"
Those are the AP (Associated Press) numbers. At the last official (well, "unofficial but certified", which is close enough for me) word I heard, Bush was still up by the original number of votes, with 54 counties reporting. These AP reporters are jumping the gun again, like they did when they gave Gore Florida Tuesday.
JK2:
"Gore has won the Popular Vote, no matter what"
Again, not nesecarily, and even if he does, barely.
"Despite who wins Florida, I think there should be a Federal investigation. Something rather fishy happened down there in regards to the investigation."
Election, you mean? Like what?
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
------------------
I see a red door and I want it painted black
Well, the ballot part. Are you aware it is illegal in Florida election law to have the voting-hole-thingy-whatever-it-is-called on the right side of the candidate's name? And yet ...
The box of crayons -- well, people find a ballot box -- what do you expect? Now that people know it was filled was crayons, it's a non-issue.
And so far, we *still* don't know why the NAACP is up in arms.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
------------------
love's function is to fabricate unknownnness
--
E. E. Cummings
****
Read chapter one of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! And party everyday.
Sol System is about as much my watchword as are two naked purple telephones mating to the sexy tunes of Kathy Lee Gifford. How 'bout them watchwords, now, Mr. Sol?
quote:
Liberals never cease to amaze me. Someone trumps up charges that Bush is dumb, and you believe it. Someone says Cheney is in poor health, and you believe it. Gore HIMSELF lies through his teeth, and you refuse to believe it. I'd love to hear your opinion on Lieberman's being excommunicated and flopping on all his views.
Omega: You seem to be confusing me with:
A) Being a "liberal"
&
B) Someone who gives a damn about American politics in general.
See, for 'A', I know not of which a liberal is. Unless you mean the Canadian political party. Of which Jean Chretien is the leader. I'd bet you wouldn't know anything about Canadian politics, and nor do you care. Like I don't about you Yankees.
You can use your standard "Oh, liberal" attack until your skin has melted off your face, and your pants have split due to the effort expended trying to call people Liberals, (Of course, provided you wear pants. I'm told they don't do much of that in Tennesee. Yee haw.) and it won't matter to me. It doesn't hurt my feeling and make me go home and cry to my Mother and suckle her teet, as it presumably does to you and your hyperconservative ilk.
GO MOTHERFUCKING NATURAL LAW PARTY. FOR CHRIST SAKES, MAN.
------------------
Communism. The most socialist of all the 'ism's. It's in you to vote.
Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.
------------------
I see a red door and I want it painted black
Electorial College count is what matters...and in the winner take all system we have, that is why when the election is as close as it is in Florida, then every vote counts.
The perviously mentioned Amendment, number 12, does not specify the number of ballots that the House may take before reaching the final one. Therefore, they can take all the time that they want from "whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them" to March 4 to make up their minds.
If they do, then there is going to be a real Constitutional pickle. Because Amendment XX reads:
quote:
Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January
Therefore, if there is no decison by the House after noon on the 20th of January, then there will be no Vice President in office to take over the duty of President.
And Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice- President (which was Ratified 6/15/1804, when as I recall the President and Vice President were elected on different ballots...therefore the President and Vice President could be from different political parties.) goes on to read
quote:
The person having the greatest number of votes [fomr the Electorial College] as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President...
Now, it gets really interesting.
quote:
if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President;
Same process as the President, but no end time for a vote established.
On the occasion of a post 20th of January decision by the House since neither he nor Bush have won anything until the House and Senate have decided. Moreover, neither has Gore the ability to move to the position to be President due to the fact that his term ended at 12:01 on the 20th.
And the last I read, there was just about a 50/50 split in the Senate with one seat not settled.
I can't imagine that today, as the VP and the POTUS are tied together by party and tradition, that there would be a vote for the VP before the POTUS.
I should think that all the political rangling, were it to go so far, would be all done in the Congress before the 20th of January.
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
That all depends on what the chances of their getting caught are, and the possible consequences. Of course, it's always possible for either side to get someone to do it so it'd be untracable to the campaign, but we'd know which side they were changing it towards, so that'd destroy the political future of that cantidate.
JK1:
"Are you aware it is illegal in Florida election law to have the voting-hole-thingy-whatever-it-is-called on the right side of the candidate's name?"
UM:
"Of course, provided you wear pants. I'm told they don't do much of that in Tennesee. Yee haw."
You seem to think you know a lot about the US, our politics, and even specific states. Listen to me very carefully: you don't. I don't know a thing about how people operate up north, nor do I particularly care, just like you toward us. The thing is, I don't pretend I do know.
But just to disspell whatever myths you've been fed: Bush is quite intelligent, and Cheney is in excellent health.
Ritten2:
Not uptight. Just frustrated.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Florida Code, Title IX, Chapter 101.011, Section 2:
"No paper ballot shall be voided or declared invalid in any election within the state by reason of the fact that the ballot is marked other than with an "X," so long as there is a clear indication thereon to the election officials that the person marking such ballot has made a definite choice, and provided further, that the mark placed on the ballot with respect to any candidate by any such voter shall be located in the blank space on the ballot opposite such candidate's name."
The "butterfly ballot" fits these requirements.
And while I'm at it, the "multiple vote" voters...
Section 4, Clause 1:
"If the elector marks more names than there are persons to be elected to an office, or if it is impossible to determine the elector's choice, his or her ballot shall not be counted for the office;"
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited November 10, 2000).]
In fact, CNN reported that several million votes in several states, including Iowa, New York, California, Oregon, and Alaska have not been counted yet, which is more than enough to potentially take even the POPULAR vote, meaningless though it is, away from Gore and give it to Bush.
As I partly said in another thread... The host of FOX's national news had a seven-year-old kid. They gave the 'disputed' florida ballot to said kid, and told him to pick out Gore's spot. He did. IMMEDIATELY. They then gave it to 100 people on the street. 99 of them got it right. The other 1 was kinda dumb to begin with. The ballot is NOT confusing.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
A guy in Franklin, TN, gave his mentally handicapped twelve-year-old a copy of the ballot, and told him to vote for Gore. The kid asked no questions, he just voted for Gore. They did the same thing with Buchannan.
The ballot was not confusing. Period.
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
So 1% of people could get it wrong. Would someone like to tell me what 1% of the US population is? Hell, what's 1% of the Florida population? And what's the difference in votes?
------------------
"If every vampire who said he was at the Crucifixion was actually there it would've been like Woodstock. I was at Woodstock. I fed off a flower person and I spent six hours watching my hand move." - Spike, BtVS
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
------------------
Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?
Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.
Exactly what evidence do we have that these people actually did intend to vote for Gore, actually did vote for Buchanan mistakenly, and are not, in fact, regretful Nader voters? It's equally plausable, don't you think?
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
If it wasn't a secret ballot you couldn't do this. Damn privacy rights...
------------------
Communism. Who wouldn't like their neighbour thrown into a goulag?
Please vote for the Communist Party of Canada This November 27th.
Since Gore won 3729730 votes, and Bush only 2204846.
Even if all 400,000 voted for Bush, he'd still lose New York.
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"
Why were the votes impounded? Have they been recounted? Does the original count and the recount match?
------------------
Gore/Lieberman 2000
***
"You still don't understand, do you MacLeod? I am the End of Time!" - Kronos
"You're history!" - MacLeod
***
"I think anybody who doesn't think I'm smart enough to handle the job is underestimating." - George "Dubya" Bush
------------------
"What he did to that walrus gentle-man was inexcusable."
-T. Herman Zweibel on "Mr. Woodrow Wood-pecker", The Onion, 7-Nov-2000
Actually, I was thinking about HILLARY'S margin of victory...
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
Francesca: He was born on the tundra, that's where he belongs. You'll kill him if you take him to Toronto.
Thatcher: That's a bit drastic, don't you think?
Francesca: Look, I've been to Toronto. Trust me, nothing can survive there. - "due South"