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Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Cheney Suffers 'Very Slight' Heart Attack

I hope that Herr Cheney gets better.

But...

Gee Wally, it looks like people were right to question his Herr Cheney's health after all. Makes one wonder what else is being hidden.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Ah, the follies of Yahoo! news...

Dick Cheney did NOT, repeat, NOT have a heart attack. He suffered from a slight narrowing of an artery, which could have occured in any man his age. The problem has been corrected.

All previous medical reports showed that Cheney was in perfect health for a man of his age. All medical reports show that he will return to normal functioning immediately.

Bottom line: Dick Cheney's health is not an issue, unless you have a problem with his age.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Why are you trying to cover stuff up?

CNN reports:

quote:
After the surgery, Dr. Alan Wasserman, interim chair of the department of medicine at George Washington University, told reporters that Cheney's prognosis is "excellent" -- and he should be able to resume normal activities in a "few weeks" at most. Cheney will remain hospitalized for the next 2-3 days.
However, doctors failed to disclose that Cheney suffered a heart attack for some hours. They waited until a second news conference more than two hours later to disclose Cheney's true condition.
"There was a very slight heart attack," Wasserman told reporters later Wednesday afternoon....

Slight? The New York Times reports:

quote:
Doctors found that one of Mr. Cheney's coronary arteries was about "90 to 95 percent blocked," and tests later determined that he had what they eventually termed a "very mild heart attack."

Los Angeles Times reports:

quote:
But doctors revised their diagnosis after a later set of blood tests indicated a "minimally elevated level" in heart muscle enzymes. The presence of these enzymes indicates heart muscle damage--a heart attack.
On Wednesday, in explaining the change in their earlier diagnosis, doctors stressed that the definition of heart attack was changed last year by the American Heart Assn. to reflect "any enzyme elevation" measured in the blood.
"Over a year ago, this amount of enzyme elevation would not have been considered by most people signs of a heart attack," said Dr. Alan Wasserman, professor of cardiology at George Washington University Hospital, where Cheney--experiencing chest discomfort--checked himself in before dawn Wednesday.
"To put this into some perspective, in someone that has had a significant heart attack, the levels would be somewhere 20 to 50 times higher," Wasserman added.

CNN writes:

quote:
Cheney, 59, had three heart attacks and quadruple cardiac bypass surgery before turning 50, but recently said he now leads an "extraordinarily vigorous lifestyle." Cheney says he quit smoking, exercises regularly and takes medicine to lower his cholesterol.

Make that 4 heart attacks.

So, either you don't know what you are talking about or you don't care to find out.

Conservative talk radio information isn't what's it's cracked up to be is it?

Clearly you haven't clue. Better tell someone to lock the thread.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited November 23, 2000).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, everyone here knows I'm not a fan of Cheney or Dubya ...

My grandad had three heart attacks, and told each one of 'em to go away because he was busy (same thing he told the Nazi who shot off his ear, except he delivered that message with a bullet). Anyway, my grandad's still kickin' -- and workin -- at 87 or so (he's an old coot).

Still -- he had his heart attacks later in life than Cheney did.

I think its a valid point if any elected official could drop dead from a heart attack. It's not something to cover up or gloss over as Omega seems to be doing (sorry dude, you are).

Of course, the election is over in that we just don't know who won ... but I don't think this is a very good start for the Bush Presidency, and if this whole Florida fiasco wasn't going on, I think it would be a *much* bigger story.

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited November 23, 2000).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

There was an article in the local paper today re: the heart attack ...

Bush can appoint someone new as VP before the electorate college votes, as long as the Republican party backs him. Even if he decides to appoint someone after the EC, he can probably do it without having to get the guy approved by Congress because of the stuff going on in Florida ... (I know I fumbled some of the details, but thats the gist of it).

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Rated 7 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You know, I would bother explain this, but you, as usual, don't care about the truth, so I'm not going to waste my time.

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"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Er, dude, unless you're suggesting that everyone involved is lying, he had a heart attack. Whether you feel that reflects on his ability to serve as vice-president or not is a matter of personal opinion. (I would lean towards not, personally.) But as much fun as it may be to fight the good fight, this isn't it.

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What did it mean to you
An early chat with death
To pull your body for a moment from your soul
--
Camper Van Beethoven
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

I agree Sol.

Still a question for Omega. What is the "truth" then?

Now, what I said in my initial post was that Cheney had a heart attack. True.

That heart attck comes on the heels of questions about his health. True.

Does this affect his ability to be Vice President? Who can say. His doctor does not think so...so, I can only speculate.

Deal you with that.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

It is good to see that with no viable answer to retort with, that Dr. Omega has decided to let this one go.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

The 'Truth' is out there..... Left field last I had seen it.....

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**...****...**

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

WASHINGTON (March 5) - Vice President Dick Cheney, who has had four heart attacks, suffered chest pains Monday and was taken to a hospital where doctors inserted a tube to examine arteries for possible blockage. President Bush called it a ``precautionary measure.''

Adviser Mary Matalin said Cheney was undergoing a cardiac catheterization at George Washington University Hospital to determine what was causing the chest pains. ``They're going in to take a look,'' she said. ``Details to follow.''

Cheney, 60, suffered a heart attack in late November but quickly resumed a full schedule after an operation to fix a blocked artery.

One of his heart arteries was 90 percent blocked, so doctors implanted a wire scaffolding-like device called a stent to push away the blockage and prop open the artery walls.

It was his fourth heart attack since he was 37. In 1988, Cheney had quadruple bypass surgery to clear clogged arteries.

Aides said Cheney, who was working at the White House on Monday, told Bush in the morning that he was experiencing discomfort in his chest and planned to be examined by a doctor.

One aide to Cheney said he headed to the hospital about 3:30 p.m. The aide said he appeared normal, even cheerful, all day.

Matalin said Cheney checked himself into the hospital ``for a repeat cardiac catheterization after experiencing two brief, mild episodes of chest discomfort. This is a non-emergency precautionary procedure. An EKG obtained at the White House this afternoon was unchanged from one obtained last Thursday.''

In procedures such as the one Cheney underwent Monday, doctors insert a flexible tube into a leg vessel, and it is run from there up to the target artery supplying blood to the heart. At that point, dye is injected. The dye shows up on an X-ray or fluoroscope, enabling doctors to see the flow of blood through the artery.

If there is a blockage, the tube can be backed out and another tube, larger, can be inserted. This tube can be used to perform a balloon angioplasty, a technique whereby a collapsed balloon is placed at the point of blockage and then inflated. This opens the artery.

If no problem is found, a patient undergoing catheterization could be sent home from the hospital in six to eight hours. If problems are found and additional procedures are required, then the patient will probably remain in the hospital for a day or two.

Cheney is an unusually active and influential vice president. He headed Bush's transition team, played a major role in Cabinet and top personnel selections and has helped Bush forge foreign policy as well as a national energy policy. White House officials say Cheney is the adviser Bush most relies upon to make sure his agenda is carried out.

His hospitalization came less than a week after Bush's first address to Congress, just as Bush is trying to generate attention and support for his tax-cut plan.

In a telephone interview, Matalin said the EKG last week was part of a normal followup to the heart attack Cheney suffered late last year.

She said Cheney reported the discomfort to his doctor, who advised the vice president to have the new procedure done sometime this week.

In a television interview Sunday, Cheney said he felt great. ``I am well-behaved. They've taken control of my food supply. So I'm trying to do all those things you need do to be a responsible individual with a history of coronary artery disease and somebody who's 60,'' he told CNN.

After his last heart attack, Cheney's doctors said the accumulation of disease had left his heart moderately damaged. Other heart experts said Cheney was at higher risk for further heart attacks than the average person his age and he needed to take such protective steps as losing weight.

Cheney late in November revealed that his blood pressure was an excellent 106 over 80. He was taking cholesterol-lowering medicine that had kept his total cholesterol level around a good 170, he said. However, he didn't reveal levels of so-called bad cholesterol and triglycerides, more important than total cholesterol counts.

Asked if he feared another heart attack, Cheney said: ``I don't operate that way. ... I look forward to several more years.''

A few days after his November heart attack, Cheney demonstrated his back-to-business mindset when he responded to questions about his health by jumping up and down and pumping his arms.

Cheney, who has declined to release his full medical records, seemingly has lost some weight since then, but aides won't say how much - or how much he now weighs. He exercises regularly on a treadmill and has been skipping sweets, aides said.

The Constitution requires Congress to confirm a new vice president if that office should become vacant. The 25th Amendment, ratified in 1967, has been invoked twice, when Vice President Spiro Agnew resigned in 1973 and again after President Nixon resigned in 1974, elevating Vice President Gerald Ford to the presidency.

When Agnew resigned in 1973, Nixon nominated Ford to be his vice president. Less than a year later, Nixon resigned, Ford succeeded him and designated Nelson Rockefeller as vice president.

AP-NY-03-05-01 1724EST

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.27 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with four eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
****
"The candidate who slimed John McCain in the primaries and smeared Al Gore in the general election is now the president who pledges to elevate the nation's tone and bring civility to our discorse. Kind of like Michael Corleone brought peace to the mob by killing the heads of the other four families."
--Paul Begala, Is Our Children Learning?

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I just got done watching Fox News Channel, and the doctor said that Cheney did not, in fact, suffer from a heart attack. It was a narrowing of the artery, right where the angioplasty was placed. The angioplasty itself re-narrowed, and it will either be replaced(there are new ones out that prevent the re-narrowing) or re-inserted.

I have an inclination to trust Fox News before CNN, or the New York Post. :P

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

Heart palpitations or chest pain on my radio.

sheesh, do people have to jump to conclusions for this?

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

The article didn't say he'd had a heart attack. It simply said he had pains in his chest and was taken to the hospital.

But maybe's it time for Dubya to go shopping for a new VP.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Man never should have run in the first place.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Of course, that ignores the fact that all medical reports at the time said that he was perfectly healthy for a man his age.

But anyway, just hypothetically speaking, who could Bush appoint as his VP if Dick resigned/died? Couldn't be a senator. Probably not House, either. Some governor? How 'bout Jeb?

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Disclaimer:
"All references to vices and of the supernatural contained in this game are for entertainment purposes only. _Over_The_Edge_ does not promote satanisim, belief in magic, drug use, violence, sexual deviation, body piercing, cynical attitudes toward the government, freedom of expression, or any other action or belief not condoned by the authorities."
- `OverTheEdge'

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

4 heart attacks...pretty good for a man of 60. Yup, pretty damned good.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Hey I'm all for that. What better to fuel our economy than an influx of able-bodied immigrants? We've got the space, and we're only up north.

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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."

-Darkstar

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Actually, if Cheney's own doctor had been allowed to discuss the current VP's medical condition...

Dr. Denton Cooley, a Houston heart-surgeon, released a statement vouching for Cheney's health. Ahem: Cooley never examined Cheney, either.

Cooley spoke with Cheney's doctor, then released a statement that said (among other things) that "Mr. Cheney is in good health with normal cardiac function."

Well, all good but ...

Too bad Cheney's doc at the time was Dr. Jonathan Reiner, and he issued a correction saying he had not given Cheney such a glowing report, adding that he "did not characterize him as having normal cardiac function."

Cheney's health condition is no secret. For some reason, Bush wanted a VP with health problems.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Perhaps he's not prejudiced against those with high risk of medical problems?

J/k, JK.

I'd say he wanted a VP with a history of heart trouble because he wanted the best man for the job. If Cheney ceases to be able to perform his duty, he'll resign, and be replaced. It's not some horrible mark on one's presidency to have to replace the VP due to his health.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I don't mean to say it is. Simply that Cheney's health difficulties should be considered now before they get any worse ...

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I want to know, what does it matter? The man is taking care of himself. He's getting fixed up, possibly in better condition than before. There is no reason for us to believe that he won't be up for performing his duties as normal, so why consider it? If something happens where he's incapacitated, then maybe such things should be explored.

And Jay, I don't know what's happened to you of late. You used to be someone who would bring information to the discussion, but your posts are getting more snide and pointless. What's the deal?

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Raven's right. There's no reason for him to resign while he can still do his job.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

It should be noted that Cheney himself offered to step down from the position of VP nominee when he suffered his earlier heart attack.

Guys, look, the dude's got health problems. Frankly, if he wants to stay in office and croak, I ain't gonna complain about it. I just think this is what it's all leading to: Cheney's going to die in office.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

On a completely unrelated note, I would now like to unveil the new official nickname for Jeb Bush, created by yours truly.

Jebya Bush.

Say it. Sounds nice, don't it? I'm proud of this one myself.

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"I WANT A POST VOY SERIES STAR TREK ORIGINAL MESSAGE WAS LOOKING FORWARD NOT LOOKING BACK."

-Darkstar

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Yes JR, you are right. And I mean that. I have been more cynical of late.

To be honest I've been a bit tired of late of bringing information to the table only to have it ignored. Or at the very least getting a single sentence attacked while leaving the rest of the argument untouched.

That stuff don't fly with me and it shouldn't with others. So to show my frustration at that I go for the one-liner...though not always.

And bear in mind, that to really have information to impart...I mean good stuff with good arguments...it takes time and effort to get out there and read. And it takes time not to have a limited reading. A reading more focused on theory...social and cultural theory.

You want my honest non-jaded opinion of the situation about Herr Chenny? He never should have run for the office of vice-president having had 3 heart attacks at the time. And then having had the 4th, he should have stepped asside immediately.

I'll tell you why.

I disagree with his politics.
It is dishonest for the oposite side to say that a 60 year old man who has had 4 heart attacks is in good health for a man his age.
He can't perform in a high stress and high time consuming job from the position of having heart trouble because:
a) Even the procedure today caused him to be under enough sedation that he could not fufill his duties as Vice-President for the time. As president? Who knows.
b) When the pooh hits the fan he has a greater chance of another heart attack.
c) If his heart causes problems during a time of national crisis that is only going to distract Double U or if Dick is president due to circumstances...well that is clearly something we do not need as a nation.
d) Using today is an example, he is clearly not doing his job as vice-president. He is rightly taking care of his heart...and that means that he is not governing.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Cheney's going to die in office.

Which president was it that had a tumor that should have killed him? He survived. LBJ has been described as a walking corpse. We STILL don't know Clinton's medical history. Cheney's hardly the worst thing to come down the pike, medically.

a) Even the procedure today caused him to be under enough sedation that he could not fufill his duties as Vice-President for the time.

Oh, no, we couldn't live without the VP for a day, now could we? I mean, the entire country'll fall apart without one relatively minor part of one branch of the government.

Heck, man, Reagan got SHOT, literally within an inch of his life, and still managed to perform his job within 24 hours. And he was older than Cheney at the time.

b) When the pooh hits the fan he has a greater chance of another heart attack.

I'll wait for the doctors' reports on that one. One of the things they did this time around was to... reenforce his angioplasty? I believe that's the correct terminology. As I understand it, the new type of device that they inserted to open the blocked artery doesn't colapse, like the old one did.

Look, if the doctors' reports say that he's at great risk, then I'd say yeah, he probably should resign, and he probably will. Maybe take up some other position in the administration, but not be VP, and thus not in the succession. But I haven't seen a medical report to that effect.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Omega,

You're ignoring other parts of Jay's arguments. And you forget that Reagan's doctors later said that Bush should've taken over duties as President because Reagan was NOT in that good condition.

But, hey, he's YOUR VP -- you don't give a damn about his health, not my problem.

Posted by Jeff Raven (Member # 20) on :

I disagree with his politics.

That shouldn't matter in this discussion.

It is dishonest for the oposite side to say that a 60 year old man who has had 4 heart attacks is in good health for a man his age.

Some people have said it, fine. It is up to you whether or not you believe it. I don't even need to go into the mulititude of dishonest things of the Democrats.

Even the procedure today caused him to be under enough sedation that he could not fufill his duties as Vice-President for the time. As president? Who knows.

I think Omega sufficiently argued against this.

When the pooh hits the fan he has a greater chance of another heart attack.

Same with this.

If his heart causes problems during a time of national crisis that is only going to distract Double U or if Dick is president due to circumstances...well that is clearly something we do not need as a nation.

What if, what if, what if... Since the future is not clear even to you, Jay, you cannot say that this will be a problem. There is very little chance of a national crisis, smaller chance that Cheney will have heart trouble at the same time, AND even smaller that he'd be President due to "circumstances." Paranoia, or wishful thinking, Jay?

Using today is an example, he is clearly not doing his job as vice-president. He is rightly taking care of his heart...and that means that he is not governing.

What are you trying to say? Our elected officials need to be on the job, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year? They're not robots, Jay. No one asked that Clinton to resign after farking his knee, or Reagan after being shot.

And Jeff, Cheney IS your vice president, whether you like it or not. If you have a serious problem with it, then you can always emmigrate. I hear Canada has a lot of nice people.

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"President Bush. It's fun saying that. Go ahead, you try." - M. Lucinsky, Spectrum Editor

"Being a liberal is one of the most gutless choices you can make. It doesn't require you to think, it only requires you to feel." - Rush Limbaugh

[This message has been edited by Jeff Raven (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

JeffR,

And Jeff, Cheney IS your vice president, whether you like it or not. If you have a serious problem with it, then you can always emmigrate. I hear Canada has a lot of nice people.

I was simply reiterating a sentiment expressed by many Congressional Republicans after Clinton won election. They told Democrats that Clinton "wasn't their president." But, since he is MY VP (as you point out), I'd like to get someone in office who isn't putting his health in danger. My God -- how are you going to feel when he croaks on the job?

Second -- fuck you. A very Republican ideal that if people don't like the way the country is run, they should leave. How very ... ignorant, frankly. My whole argument here is that Mr. Cheney's health is in danger, and you're telling me to leave the country. Forgive me for caring about someone's health. Jesus Fucking Christ.

Heck, man, Reagan got SHOT, literally within an inch of his life, and still managed to perform his job within 24 hours. And he was older than Cheney at the time.

Reagan's physician at the time stated that the Twenty-Fifth Ammendment should have been invoked to transfer presidential powers temporarily to VP Bush which Reagan was under general anesthesia and recovering from surgery. Sorry, but when the guy's doctor says he wasn't able execute his duties, that means more to me than your spin, Omega.

Oh, no, we couldn't live without the VP for a day, now could we? I mean, the entire country'll fall apart without one relatively minor part of one branch of the government.

Sure, until George W. Bush gets assassinated, or something like that, because then Cheney becomes President. Unless, of course, he's at GWU Hospital suffering from (or recovering from) a heart attack. Right, my bad, a "mild" heart attack. Really, you're showing an incredible ignorance for this possibility.

No, of course not, Jeff. However, there's a big difference between being on vacation in the country-side (or even limping about with a crutch with a bad knee), then being in the hospital recovering from a heart attack. If Bush got shot, and Cheney was in the hospital with a heart attack -- well, gee, wouldn't that be wonderful. Actually, that would be wonderful. Why am I arguing for Dick Cheney's health here? I don't understand it.

Some people have said it, fine. It is up to you whether or not you believe it. I don't even need to go into the mulititude of dishonest things of the Democrats.

It is the truth, however. Bush's campaign lied about Cheney's health, including getting doctors (who had never examined Cheney) to say he was in good health, forcing Cheney's actual doctors to make press releases saying they had never said that.

How typical, Jeff. You're all 100% for calling Democrats liars, but when Republicans are shown to do the same exact thing, you say it's okay "because the Democrats do it!!!" Sheeeesh.

I disagree with his politics.

That shouldn't matter in this discussion.

Talk about biased. You didn't even make note of Jay's use of the winky-smiley face, which to anyone with eyes clearly shows that this remark is not meant to "matter" in this discussion, but just to be a funny remark. Chill. Out.

To sum up:

Dick Cheney is in bad health. Republicans want to defend his right to stay in office and suffer the health related consequences. Others would like Mr. Cheney to resign so that he might have a better chance of living a full and long life.

*ahem*

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Reagan's physician at the time stated that the Twenty-Fifth Ammendment should have been invoked to transfer presidential powers temporarily to VP Bush which Reagan was under general anesthesia and recovering from surgery.

WHICH IT WAS! We've been through this before, Jeff. Get it straight: Bush acted as president as provided for in the twenty-fifth ammendment after Reagan was shot. Heck, it was in the frikin' WORLD BOOK, last I checked! Do you do ANY research for yourself, or do you just accept what you're told?

Sure, until George W. Bush gets assassinated, or something like that, because then Cheney becomes President.

And the odds of this happening are infinitesimal. You may as well worry that someone's gonna try and blow up a joint session of congress.

If Bush got shot, and Cheney was in the hospital with a heart attack

Cheney has not been in the hospital for a heart problem for so much as a week since his... what was it, triple bypass a decade or so back? You have no reason to think he will need to be.

Why am I arguing for Dick Cheney's health here?

Good question, considering that his doctors don't seem to see any need for him to even reduce his workload, much less cut it all together. I trust their opinion more than yours, Jeff.

Bush's campaign lied about Cheney's health, including getting doctors (who had never examined Cheney) to say he was in good health, forcing Cheney's actual doctors to make press releases saying they had never said that.

And you have evidence of this, I presume?

Dick Cheney is in bad health.

Not according to his doctors.

Republicans want to defend his right to stay in office and suffer the health related consequences.

His doctors don't seem to think that there would be any. Besides, he DOES have the right to stay in office and suffer any possible health-related consequences, be they heart attacks, bullets, or bombs.

Others would like Mr. Cheney to resign so that he might have a better chance of living a full and long life.

You base this on...?

Look, if the man thought that his health was in danger, or that his supposed lack thereof would keep him from doing his job, he'd resign. Remember, he's not in it for power, like recent occupants. He's there to do the job. If he couldn't, there'd be no reason for him to be there, and he'd leave.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

God you're stubborn Omega.

Do you know who Dr. Jonathon Reiner is? He's Mr. Cheney's cardiologist, and he contradicted a statement by Dr. Denton Cooley (whom the Bush campaign hired to vouch for Cheney's health), that in fact, Cheney "did not have normal cardiac function."

New York Times, 7/25/00

First, Omega claimed this:
Heck, man, Reagan got SHOT, literally within an inch of his life, and still managed to perform his job within 24 hours. And he was older than Cheney at the time.

Then, Omega posted THIS gem:
WHICH IT WAS! We've been through this before, Jeff. Get it straight: Bush acted as president as provided for in the twenty-fifth ammendment after Reagan was shot. Heck, it was in the frikin' WORLD BOOK, last I checked! Do you do ANY research for yourself, or do you just accept what you're told?

Now, regarding Reagan: first you say that he was able to function in the capacity of office even though he'd just been shot, then you backtrack and say that, no, Bush had in fact been given power under the 25th Ammendment. Make up your mind, please, because you've contradicted yourself. If powers had been removed from him via the 25th Ammendment, I honestly doubt he'd've gotten them back within the 24 hours you claim.

However, it should be pointed out that powers were NOT transfered to Bush. Otherwise, why would his Doc release a statement (albeit, after Bush had been elected), saying that powers should have been transfered to Bush via the Twenty-Fifth Ammendment if they had been? Well, because they hadn't been.

Barrett, Lawrence I. Gambling with History: Reagan in the White House.

Where are you sources, Omega ... ? Just wondering.

Dick Cheney's health is not in dispute. As proved by this latest incident, and his earlier heart attack (his fouth), the man is clearly not in the best of health.

What is in question is whether or not he should remain in office. So far, the case made for staying in office hasn't been made very well, and seems to boil down to, "if the man wants to have a heart attack, let him!" and "the President will never be assassinated or have anything bad happen, the chances are really small!"

Whatever.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

first you say that he was able to function in the capacity of office even though he'd just been shot, then you backtrack and say that, no, Bush had in fact been given power under the 25th Ammendment.

This is not contradictory, as you would know if you would be so kind as to actually read the things that you're commenting upon. I stated that Reagan was performing his duties 24 hours after being shot. I also stated that Bush was performing Reagan's duties for a time after Reagan was shot. The conclusion: Bush was performing the duties of President of the United States for the 24 hours that Reagan wasn't. Duh.

why would his Doc release a statement (albeit, after Bush had been elected), saying that powers should have been transfered to Bush via the Twenty-Fifth Ammendment if they had been?

Ignorance, obviously. Medical doctors don't have much legal experience, usually.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

If you'd replied to my entire post, instead of just cropping what you wanted to, I addressed that point that you accuse me of not making. I bolded the neccessary parts for you.

Now, regarding Reagan: first you say that he was able to function in the capacity of office even though he'd just been shot, then you backtrack and say that, no, Bush had in fact been given power under the 25th Ammendment. Make up your mind, please, because you've contradicted yourself. If powers had been removed from him via the 25th Ammendment, I honestly doubt he'd've gotten them back within the 24 hours you claim.

You've yet to post your source for your claim that the 25th Ammendment was invoked, instead, you attack a Doc's legal knowledge. In fact, it would be historical knowledge in this case.

Please back up your claim.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I already told you: it was listed in the World Book encyclopedia. That's not a good enough source for you? Well, I seem to recall encountering the information in a Social Studies textbook I once used, and on some game show, likely "Jeopardy!". Better?

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

You seem to recall reading it in a social studies text? It was on Jeopardy? Fine, Data told Picard that Ireland reunifies in 2033, but I'm not going to take that to the bank.

Which World Book Encyclopdia? What does the entry say? Does it specificly say that the 25th Ammendment was invoked, or that Bush took over for a few hours? Have you even READ the Twenty-Fifth Ammendment? It's impossible to execute it, then reverse it in the short time span you claim. Well, okay, not impossible, but given the circumstances and that his chief physician was saying "bad idea" it would be super-highly improbable.

Section 4 Whenever the Vice-President and a majority of either the principle officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice-President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principle officers of the executive department[s] or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice-President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

So, what you're expecting people to believe, is that less than a day after being shot so seriously his Doc declared him to be unfit for office, that Congress and the VP (with no disent from any of the above members listed able to disent) said, "wait a sec, his Docs say he can't do it, but what the hell?" and found him capable of executing the duties of his office -- in less than a day?

No. Sorry. While I don't doubt that George Bush ran the show for a little bit, the 25th Ammendment was at no time invoked. First of Two: you got any insight on this?

I notice you didn't reply to Cheney's health being poor. Wonder why.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

"Heck, man, Reagan got SHOT, literally within an inch of his life, and still managed to perform his job within 24 hours."

This assumes Reagan ever performed his job at all. :-)

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"...I know this board in secret, intimate ways which are beyond your comprehension.... Let's just say that people should *not* be telling me what to do; it should always be the other way around."
-"Red Quacker", conspiracy theorist and contemporary lunatic

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

JK:

I didn't reply to it because I'd already beaten the snot out of the subject. Cheney's health is a non-issue. Heck, this latest incident wasn't even caused by Cheney's supposed poor health. It was caused by a failure in a device that they inserted when he had that minor heart attack a few months back. Said device fails around a third of the time.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

If it's a non-issue, why does the press make such a big deal of it? Oh, right, I forgot -- vast left wing conspiracy. My bad.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

You're catching on.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

I guess this IS just me, but I do tend to think four heart-attacks; open-heart, quadruple-bypass surgery; cancer and gout = Poor Health.

Right, I forgot, Democrats replaced Cheney for those medical conditions with a clone programmed with bad health. Yep. And people say Red Quaker is a conspiracy theorist!

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

quote:
Oh, no, we couldn't live without the VP for a day, now could we? I mean, the entire country'll fall apart without one relatively minor part of one branch of the government.

I'm sorry to disagree with you again, but the vice-president in not a cracker salesman. I think that even you would agree that in the current administration his is a more important job...even more so than other presidencies.

quote:
b) When the pooh hits the fan he has a greater chance of another heart attack.
I'll wait for the doctors' reports on that one

Now, when it comes down to it, I'm not a doctor. However, when it comes down to it, Dick Cheney has heart disease. And when it comes down to it anyone who has heart disease and has had 4 heart attacks in the past is more at risk than the rest of us.

And anyone who has a job that requires all the work, and Bush has put a great deal on Cheney..meetings, travel ect..., who has heart disease and has had 4 heart attacks in the past is more at risk than the rest of us.

In my opinion, the man never should have run for office and I think he won't make the whole 4 years. Which leaves us with a person the public didn't elect in the white house....oh, wait, there is another one there already.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Curry Monster (Member # 12) on :

Isn't it funny, how the left says its a conspiracy but not a conscious one. Its like involuntary muscle movements, the press supports the right. Why? Because its owned by people with money, who make the top decisons, who are from the right.

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Re: Russia in WWII

"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Erm -- if the press is owned by the people with money, who make the top decisions, who are on the right ... why then is the liberal left-wing biased?

And, Daryus, how did this come out of a topic on Cheney's health? Just wondering.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited March 06, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Well, you brought it up, Jeff.

Daryus:

the press supports the right

Um... no? This does not fit observational evidence. At least, not on THIS continent.

Jay:

The man's at more risk of being shot than most of us, too. He knows the territory. He knows the medical reports. He knows his body. He knows the risks.

I would point out that since the quadruple bypass surgery, he has had exactly one, very minor heart attack. That's in, what, ten years? And that's at age sixty. It would not be unusual for a sixty year old man to have a minor heart attack. There is NO reason as yet to think that Cheney won't finish his term. The bypass fixed whatever was wrong from the first three, and the device installed and recently replaced corrected the fourth. Maybe he is at a higher risk of heart attack than your average sixty year old man. But if perfect health is a criterion for your elected officials, why'd you elect Clinton without demanding to see his medical history?

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, Omega, Clinton didn't have a heart attack during the campaign, either. Which is the same reason that Dubya's health condition isn't being debated (at least not that I know of) -- neither of those candidates has been to the hospital with heart problems during the campaign, and then now a month into the administration.

Hey, it's Cheney's business if he wants to stay in office. However, his health is poor. That's a matter of record. There is no debating it. He wants to injure his health by staying in the campaign, and ... well, that's his business. It won't be a loss if Cheney kills himself keeping up his pace.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

My grandfather on my father's side was in near-perfect health, until he had ONE 'surprise' heart attack, and died at 49.

My gf's father has had a broken back, cataracts, several cardiac incidents' and has undergone at least three angioplasties and heart catheterizations... and is still a stubborn old grouch at 88.

Health, schmelth.

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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching

Posted by Orion Syndicate (Member # 25) on :

Yeah, but your gf's father isn't being asked to be Vice President of your country. Cheney is, and it's clear that his health is an issue, especially in such a high pressure job.

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The Worlds Ten Greatest 'Fucks' #3

What a stupid place to plant a fucking tree - Marc Bolan

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

My grandfather on my father's side was in near-perfect health, until he had ONE 'surprise' heart attack, and died at 49.

Just out of curiousity, but did he say he was in near-perfect health, or a doctor?

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

The military doctors did. My dad's dad flew them big old bombers. B-22, etc.

Mind you, this DID happen before certain techniques that might have led to a different diagnosis were adequately developed.

I'm interested in knowing if the same people who want Cheney to step down now would have wanted FDR and/or Wilson (both were pretty sickly) to step down as well.

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

If either of them had been vice presidents at the time, absolutely.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
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Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

*laugh* PLEASE tell me you're kidding.

They were Presidents at the time, ya'know.
(Admittedly, FDR DID die in office... in his fourth term.)

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

And I believe Wilson had a stroke during his term, rendering one side of his body useless, and his wife was more-or-less in charge for part of his presidency. Or am I remembering incorrectly?

Posted by Right on :

I would like to point out that not many people knew of FDR's true medical condition: the news that he was in a wheelchair nearly killed my grandfather, who idolized the man.

But then again, FDR is hardly the same as Cheney. Even die-hard Republicans (such as my grandad) who lived through the Great Depression and the War loved the man. Speak ill of FDR, and you'd likely find yourself with a shotgun in your face if Grandad had his way ... of course, speak well of Clinton or Gore (or George W.), and you'd be facing the same shotgun again.

Not trying to make this too political, but no, if FDR were running for office (or in office) right now, his health would be a much bigger issue than it was 60 years ago, and the voices shouting for him to resign would be much louder than those today for Cheney to step down.

I do think that Cheney is putting his health on the line. That is of course his decision ... well, his and his family.

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"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make them my friends?" - Abraham Lincoln

"America is a large, friendly dog in a very small room. Every time it wags its tail it knocks over a chair." - Arnold Toynbee

"Fighting for peace is like f***ing for virginity." - Anonymous

"Our bombs are smarter than [George W. Bush]. At least they can find Kuwait." - A. Whitney Brown

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I believe that's correct.

Wasn't there also one that had a life-threatening cancer?

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Then there was William Henry Harrison, who, while healthy when he was elected, was foolish enough to make a very long speech in very cold weather, without a coat, contracted pneumonia, and died after a month in office.

And there was some other president who served his term with a bullet lodged somewhere in his body.. whether it was from a failed assassination attempt or an old war wound, I'm not sure.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Any references to FDR is comparing a different time to a different place. But please bear this in mind, his condition and that of Wilson brought about the interest in the health of the major elected leaders of the nation.

Cheney stays in office. Great. Someone to continue to wind the key in Double U every morning. However, if something happens to him, it is going to be a huge distraction to an administration who needs to avoid distractions as much as possible.

I think it's time to move on now.

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I should've known you were the only one stupid enough to kidnap you! Now get down here so I can spank you in front of this gawking rabble
~ C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited March 07, 2001).]

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

I could care less about whether or not Cheney is in office. All you guys seem to be arguing about whether he should or shouldn't.

Three words: It doesn't Matter

I wouldn't care less if Cheney worked himself so much that he just drops dead in the middle of Congress hearings and such. The point is that it is Cheney's choice to run as VP. He knows the risks, he lives with the risks. If he lives, then great. If he dies, then the country mourns (or at least half of it). And that's that.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited March 07, 2001).]

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

That's hardly that. The vice president has few official duties, but the most important one they do have is to be available to take over the office of the president at any time should it become necessary. How is that not a subject that's important to discuss?

Having said that, I don't think Cheney needs to resign. I don't think he really can, either. He's an integral part of the Bush White House.

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I will shout until they know what I mean.
--
Neutral Milk Hotel
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Then, go insane!

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Then there's the curious question of how he could be replaced. I mean, with a fifty-fifty split in the Senate, and no tie-breaker, we could end up with a deadlock until the '02 election.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well ...

a) Bush could appoint a moderate Republican, and probably wouldn't have any trouble getting enough Democratic support to have him sworn in ...

b) You can all wait till Strom Thurmond kicks the bucket and the Dems have a 51 -> 49 advantage in the Senate and then try to replace Cheney if something should happen ...

Interesting tidbit, tho. Looks like Cheney's not interested in running for VP again -- he said he would fill out his four year term in the Post today, but he hinted he didn't want the job again.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I'll do it.

The VP is supposed to be nominally in charge of the Space Program, so you KNOW that'd be in good hands.

Plus it'd guarantee that none of the left-wing nuts try to off W, coz I'd come down harder on them than W ever would.

And it would give me the recognition I'd need to successfully run for Dictator in 2008.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So you're saying you'd use yourself as a human shield to protect Dubya? Er -- dude, there's a whole agency out there for that purpose

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

No, I'm saying that the idea of ME as president would scare them people even more than the idea of W. as president.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Oh. Well ... yes, that's a good point.

Posted by TSN (Member # 31) on :

That's why they'd kill you first, and then Bush. The irionic thing is that they'd kill you w/ guns that you wanted them to have. :-)

No, I'm not bringing guns into this topic! That was just a crack at Rob! Don't start talking about guns!

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Oh, hell, TSN, don't you think I'd be prepared for that eventuality?

Reagan was the Teflon president. I'm the Kevlar VP.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Just make sure to have a kevlar helmet