It is arguably the whole concept of an electoral college that has gotten us into this situation in the first place. The members of the constitutional Convention, in all their infinite wisdom, created a system whereby the states are asked to send electors to the electoral college (who decide the presidency) and are given complete freedom to decide how those electors are to be chosen. No doubt, the reasoning therein was to provide a buffer zone between the then relatively uneducated masses and the single most important decision our nation faces every four years. It also decreases the power of the federal government by giving the states more control over how the president is chosen. In those days, the states were very nearly semi-autonomous units, as close to being sovereign states as they could be without actually seceding from the union. With no Interstate commerce to speak of and no nation-wide communication systems, each state was allowed the freedom to do things the way it saw fit, since it wouldn't affect other states much, if at all.
After the onset of the industrial revolution (the US was a largely agrarian society before then), that became les and less the case. It was necessarily changed again more recently by the arrival of amazing communications technology and the globalization that was brought about by it. Television and the internet have revolutionized politics as much as any other aspect of society. If they so desire, people can easily become as informed about the actions of the legislature and other branches of government as the politicians themselves. Globalization has also brought about the standardization of education (and vast improvement over the old days, believe it or not). With the masses being both better educated and better informed, it is perhaps no longer necessary to so completely separate them from the process. It is also perhaps no longer necessary continue giving states artificially weighted preference in elections, as the electoral college undeniably does. States like Virginia, which always goes Republican, are ignored by the Democrats because it doesn't matter if they pick up an extra 5% when they no the margin is going to be 15% anyway (the same applies in historically Democratic states).
In this modern era of standardization it is very likely that a very strong push will be made, particularly in light of this election, to standardize the system and do away with the now obsolete electoral college. That would have a very interesting side-effect - it would make the presidential election a federal election to elect two officials, rather than a collection of state elections to elect slates of electors. That would force the process by which people actually vote for president to be changed. A good lawyer could argue that any nationwide election conduced on different type of voting machines is unconstitutional, particularly given the evidence of the tremendously higher failure rate seen in punchcard systems. We'd be forced to standardize the entire system, most likely on federal money, so that all voters have an equal right to vote. While that would be extraordinarily expensive, it would probably be the single most important improvement in the history of our democracy. That is the only way that a fair and accurate election can be guaranteed, assuming the best machine is chosen as the standard (more on that later).
This election has pulled the flaws of the electoral college (which the framers of the constitution could not possibly have seen, given the unimaginable social, economic, and political changes brought about by the industrial revolution, and now the information revolution) into the limelight. It will no doubt result in massive changes to the system itself, probably even a constitutional amendment. Even more important than the exposure of the flaws in the current system, however, is the demonstration of how incredibly well the rest of the system works.
Contrary to Don Imus's remarks that the wheels are about to fall off of the nation, we have seen how well the system was designed to work even in the event of a full blown political crisis. There are no violent riots, no bloodshed, no threats to take office by force, nothing but a cut and dry, orderly legal contest. There are no fears about what will happen next, everyone knows exactly what each court is doing and which one will see which part of it next. Nothing extralegal has been done in the contest, nor will it, as the very nature of the system would cause the candidate who tried it would automatically be assured of a loss.
We are very fortunate to have a system so well designed that it can sustain a lengthy contest of the election for the highest office in the land with no signs of stress. The worst thing we have seen is a single radio talk show host making a comment purely for the sake of getting a few laughs (at which he is succeeding, I might add).
We have a system so well designed that something like this can happen and everyone can still laugh about it without fear. We can rest easy in the knowledge that those things which are broken can be pointed out and fixed so freely. For all its faults, we have arguably the best system of government the world has ever seen because it is so dynamic and changeable while still retaining it basic principles of freedom ad democracy. I urge you all to remember this election not only as the biggest screw-up in the history of our nation, but as the greatest demonstration of how such a screw-up can be corrected without difficulty. Remember it well; your grandchildren will ask you what it was like when they read about it in their history books.
------------------
Sean Robertson
[email protected]
http://www.webolutionary.com
http://www.mania-online.com
3D Gladiator Premier Forums Member
"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"
- Wordsworth
"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"
- Dr Evil
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
I would like to apologize to anyone (First) who was angered by what I typed. I should know better than to post a response when angry.
Why am I angry? Well, his name is Omega, and he's an arrogant little know-it-all who doesn't know enough to open his mind and LOOK at the real world.
'Nuff said.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 07, 2000).]
------------------
Sean Robertson
[email protected]
http://www.webolutionary.com
http://www.mania-online.com
3D Gladiator Premier Forums Member
"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"
- Wordsworth
"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"
- Dr Evil
Better that than the bunch of Commu-fascistic, misguided, fetus-chopping, murderer coddling, china-sucking, intern-**cking, coke-snorting, lying, race-baiting, constitution-shredding illegitimate "children of the revolution" who, despite all their prattling about equality, won't be opening the gated communities of West Hollywood and Beverly Hills to those same underpriveleged people anytime soon.
Be careful what you start.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
Sean Robertson
[email protected]
http://www.webolutionary.com
http://www.mania-online.com
3D Gladiator Premier Forums Member
"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"
- Wordsworth
"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"
- Dr Evil
First, my above statement was directed at the heirarchy of the GOP, and not you. To the best of my knowledge, they are white, rich, disapprove of the homosexual lifestyle, and I'm sure quite a few are racist.
In response to your points (ravings?):
Commu-fascistic
Communism is a form of government which does not work. There are things within communism which do work, same with democracy (some things work, some don't). By insulting people who want to improve the system -- well, I guess that's your right, 1st Ammendment and all ...
misguided
Because they don't think like you? Yeah, that's a GREAT argument ...
coke-snorting
No, Clinton smoked but he never inhaled. Get your drug stories correct ... this is Dubya you're talking about here.
intern-**-ucking
Lots of people fuck, First. Senator Packwood, for one. Have you never had sex? He who throws the first stone ...
china-sucking
Would you include Dick Nixon in here? I don't see what the problem is by trying to make friendly with a potentially enemy nation. Maybe we should just nuke 'em first though, huh?
murder-coddling
Because they prefer rehabilitation to execution?
fetus chopping
It's not your body, hand's off.
lying
Um ... I don't think any politician is innocent of this ...
race-baiting
Sorta like Ted Danson's "blackface" routine at a Republican fundraiser ... what, ten years ago now? Hmmm. Doesn't this sorta go to the point of the Republican leadership being racist? I dunno ...
consitution-shredding
Last thing I knew, it was still in one piece in a glass case somewhere in DC ...
illegitimate children of the revolution
That ended quite a few years ago. I don't think any of their children are alive anymore, legitimate or not.
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 07, 2000).]
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
"Commu-facistic" is refering to a combination of communism and facism. Communism has become misdefined over the years, yes, but when a word is used to mean a specific thing for so long, it then means that thing, because that is the meaning communicated by the word. Thus, "communist" in contemporary language means what "socialist" meant when it was coined.
Moving on, let us define the term. I'm going to guess that what Fo2 meant by this was a system in which business interests had great influence in a government which controls the lives of the non-elite. This would seem to be a reasonable synthesis of socialism and fascism.
What would happen if the Democratic party got everything it wanted? Analyze programs such as HillaryCare and deduce the possible results of their implementation. How would you describe the resulting society?
"misguided
Because they don't think like you? Yeah, that's a GREAT argument ..."
That's not what he said. Why did you assume that that was what he meant?
"coke-snorting
No, Clinton smoked but he never inhaled. Get your drug stories correct ... this is Dubya you're talking about here."
Why did you change the subject to Bush? Why do you believe Bush used drugs?
"china-sucking
Would you include Dick Nixon in here? I don't see what the problem is by trying to make friendly with a potentially enemy nation. Maybe we should just nuke 'em first though, huh?"
Why do you favor friendly relations with a government that killed thousands of people for no reason?
"murder-coddling
Because they prefer rehabilitation to execution?"
Have you heard of any successful rehabilitations of a murderer that could have been exectued?
"fetus chopping
It's not your body, hand's off."
Does this apply to Siamese twins, as well?
"lying
Um ... I don't think any politician is innocent of this ..."
Can you think of an instance where George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, et al. lied to the people of the country?
"race-baiting
Sorta like Ted Danson's "blackface" routine at a Republican fundraiser ... what, ten years ago now? Hmmm. Doesn't this sorta go to the point of the Republican leadership being racist? I dunno ..."
Why do you change the subject to something completely unrelated? Why do you not respond to the accusation that the DNC is involved in race-baiting?
"consitution-shredding
Last thing I knew, it was still in one piece in a glass case somewhere in DC ..."
Why do you not respond to the accusation that the DNC disregards the constitution when inconvenient?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
Sorry, Omega. Nice try baiting me, however.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
He posts his views.
You go off about how they're 'wrong'.
He tries to defend himself.
You don't listen, see # 2.
Really, I don't see why anyone bothers with little arrogant narrow-minded pricks like you. It's a waste of effort.
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
It appears that Omega got the better of JK, and he's gone off to lick his wounds, so to speak.
------------------
"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
This is all just the same thing OVER and OVER again.
No one wins, no one loses, They just think they do.
It's all just annoying.
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
First told me not to start a flamewar. I deleted my original post. Now, it looks like we've got a flamewar. Well, I tried.
what would happen if the Democratic Party got everything it wanted?
We'd FINALLY have a nation to be proud of!
that's not what he said
He said "misguided," ... now, followed by a comma, I assumed that to mean that Democrats are misguided. But, to what DID you mean?
have you heard of any successful rehabilitations of a murderer that could have been executed?
I would rather rehabilitate a person their first time in jail ... first offences are usually for rather minor things. That way, maybe (just maybe), we could avoid that murder all together. But god forbid we try and rehabilitate people! Oh, no! And when did killing people EVER become an answer to ANYTHING?
does this apply to Siamese twins as well?
It would apply to anyone that doesn't want others telling them what to do (or not to do) with their own damn body.
George W. Bush, Ronald Reagen, Bob Dole, et. al lied to the people of this country?
Besides Iran Contra?
why do you believe Bush used drugs?
What does that matter? How can you prove to me that he didn't?
the DNC is involved in race baiting
How so?
...that killed thousands of people for no reason
*Cough*MyLai*cough*
Things happen in the past, Omega. Or have you forgotten this nation's horrible history with the natives of this land? We're not completely innocent here, bub.
Why do you not respond to the accusation that the DNC disregards the constitution when inconvenient?
ROFLMA. They never have.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
------------------
"Solipsism, like other absurdities of the professional philosopher, is a product of too much time wasted in library stacks between the covers of a book, in smoke-filled coffeehouses (bad for the brains) and conversation-clogged seminars. To refute the solipsist or the metaphysical idealist all that you have to do is take him out and throw a rock at his head: if he ducks he's a liar."
--Edward Abbey
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
We'd FINALLY have a nation to be proud of!"
I wish more specificity. Can you describe what you believe would be the social ramifications of programs such as HillaryCare, were they passed?
"that's not what he said
He said "misguided," ... now, followed by a comma, I assumed that to mean that Democrats are misguided. But, to what DID you mean?"
My apologies for the ambiguity. My statement was that First did not say that Democrats were misguided specifically because they disagreed with him. My question was why you assumed this was, in fact, what he meant.
"have you heard of any successful rehabilitations of a murderer that could have been executed?
I would rather rehabilitate a person their first time in jail ... first offences are usually for rather minor things. That way, maybe (just maybe), we could avoid that murder all together. But god forbid we try and rehabilitate people! Oh, no! And when did killing people EVER become an answer to ANYTHING?"
I would be interested in hearing your proposal on how we might rehabilitate criminals.
As for executing murderers, it does prevent them from killing anyone else, does it not? Would it not, therefore, be a method of reducing the number of possible future murders?
"does this apply to Siamese twins as well?
It would apply to anyone that doesn't want others telling them what to do (or not to do) with their own damn body."
But what is your position on the right to do what one wishes with one's body, when the excersize of that right involves the death of another?
"George W. Bush, Ronald Reagen, Bob Dole, et. al lied to the people of this country?
Besides Iran Contra?"
Can you provide evidence of this?
"why do you believe Bush used drugs?
What does that matter? How can you prove to me that he didn't?"
You stated that you believe Bush used drugs. I simply wish to know why you believe this.
"...that killed thousands of people for no reason
*Cough*MyLai*cough*
Things happen in the past, Omega. Or have you forgotten this nation's horrible history with the natives of this land? We're not completely innocent here, bub."
Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous government are equivalent to the ordered actions of a current government? Do you believe that previous crimes commited by people claiming to represent this country justify dealing with murderers?
"Why do you not respond to the accusation that the DNC disregards the constitution when inconvenient?
ROFLMA. They never have."
You believe that the DNC has never disregarded the constitution. Does this include their support for the "Fairness Doctrine?"
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited December 07, 2000).]
quote:
My apologies for the ambiguity. My statement was that First did not say that Democrats were misguided specifically because they disagreed with him. My question was why you assumed this was, in fact, what he meant.
Why do you assume that he assumed what you thought that Rob was thinking before either of you thought to assume otherwise?
quote:
I would be interested in hearing your proposal on how we might rehabilitate criminals.As for executing murderers, it does prevent them from killing anyone else, does it not? Would it not, therefore, be a method of reducing the number of possible future murders?
If you don't, of course, count the murders that are committed by state. But them's the Government, so it's OK.
quote:
>Besides Iran Contra?Can you provide evidence of this?
I'd like to see you provide examples to refute this. I'd imagine you won't, seeing as how you never have when asked for anything else, simply making some statement that shows that you know how to evade, and then berate someone else for evading a different question.
quote:
You stated that you believe Bush used drugs. I simply wish to know why you believe this.
Sweet Jesus M. P. O. Y. M. Christ! I agree with this. I think that the whole Bush=Crack debate is moronic, and anyone who uses this as example needs to "read a book or some shit"
quote:
Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous government are equivalent to the ordered actions of a current government?
In the future, they will become the previous government. Then will the events become as non-important as the ones you are dismissing as coming from a previous government?
quote:
Do you believe that previous crimes commited by people claiming to represent this country justify dealing with murderers?
Well, aside from the fact that *gasp* mass-murder hasn't just happened before in China, I'd ask to why anyone would deal with you.
quote:
You believe that the DNC has never disregarded the constitution. Does this include their support for the "Fairness Doctrine?"
What's this 'Fairness Doctrine?'
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
I would be interested in hearing your proposal on how we might rehabilitate criminals
A proposal? Hah! More like a rough scratch of the surface. I'm not going to pretend to know what has or has not worked, I will start off by saying we've got to be able to do something better than locking people up and then sending them back out into society. These are full of holes, but they're rough ideas at best:
When it comes to drug abuse, prison is probably a bad idea. They take up space that more deserving people need. Drug-rehab facilities (although not doing Robert Downey, Jr. much good) are a much better place for the average crackhead. Sure, we'll have to build a few more, but better these than more jails, right? I mean, we'll be freeing up space in the jails by building drug-rehabs ...
Education. Get people their godamn GEDs. Those that have 'em, start 'em off in some Community College classes. Add to this a program to help people find jobs when they're out of jail (a few years ago, there was an article in the Balt. Sun about a man who ran a construction company and regularly hired ex-cons ... very few of them ever returned to crime -- they'd paid their debt to society and were happy to be productive citizens).
The key is to finding out how to get current prisoners from returning to jail and make them into productive citizens. Do that, and we'll start to have a much better society.
Now ... onto the murderers ...
Let's say I kill someone.
I'm convicted of murder, and find myself facing the death penalty, or life in jail.
I would WANT to be executed. The prospect of spending the next seventy years or so staring at a 10 foot cell doesn't much appeal to me. What would I do? Lift weights? Get raped in the shower? Every weekend night I'd be tortured by the knowledge that I could be out drinking, playing pool, and having fun with my friends ... but instead am trapped in a cell ...
Life in jail is much more punishment, IMHO, then death would be. That is why I am against the death penalty.
'Cuz I'm one sadistic son of a bitch ...
But what is your position on the right to do what one wishes with one's body, when the exercise of that right involves the death of another?
Let's not get into a debate on when "life" begins...
If I happen to someday get some girl pregnant, then I will have say in the matter. What will I do? I honestly don't have a clue ... will I still be in school? Will I be working at a job where I could provide for a child, or support her in raising the child?
There are so many factors to take into consideration, but what it comes down to is, it's not my body
Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous government are the equivilant to the ordered actions of a current government?
With regard to Lt. Calley and My Lai? No, of course not, but it did happen, and authorized or not, it was carried out in the name of the United States of America.
And its the same government. Different administration these days is all.
Same thing with what we did to the Indians.
I believe peace means dealing with people we don't like, even the Chinese. We're not going to get them to change their outlook on things like Human Rights by threatening them with sanctions.
Look at it this way ... if your enemy suggests something, you shoot down that suggestion. But if your friend suggests something ...
you believe the DNC has never disregarded the Consitution...
I never said that.
What I said (well, what I replied to), was that the Democratic National Party had never disregarded the Constitution when it was inconvenient.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
Get it? Salvageable? Junkyard? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Fried eggs told me the secrets.
MA.
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
Say your father drives a bus off a cliff killing everyone inside. You're responsible. Its the same family. Different person these days is all.
Collective guilt is bullshit. You probably think I should be ashamed to be white, because my ancestors enslaved blacks.
------------------
"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
"Why do you assume that he assumed what you thought that Rob was thinking before either of you thought to assume otherwise?"
Rob called the Democrats "misguided." JK, in such a manner that seemed to me to indicate that it was a rhetorical question, asked whether it was because they disagreed with him (Rob). My question was why JK assumed that that was what Rob meant or believed.
"If you don't, of course, count the murders that are committed by state. But them's the Government, so it's OK."
Do you believe that all intentionally caused human death is murder? If so, what is your position on abortion?
"In the future, they will become the previous government. Then will the events become as non-important as the ones you are dismissing as coming from a previous government?"
I don't believe "important" would be the most accurate word. "Relevant" would be more appropriate. But to answer the question I believe you're asking, yes, once the government of China has changed out, I would agree that the actions of the previous government are not relevant to our relation with the then-current one, and thus I would support diplomatic and trade relations.
"What's this 'Fairness Doctrine?'"
The 'Fairness Doctrine' was an FCC regulation originally instituted in 1949. The FCC later summarized it with the following statement:
"The Fairness Doctrine, as developed by the commission, imposes upon broadcasters a two-prongedobligation. Boradcast licenses are required to provide coverage of vitally important controversial issues of interest in the community served by the licensee and to provide a reasonable opportunity for the presentation of contrasting viewpoints on such issues."
As the terms in this regulation were completely undefined, it proved dangerous. Red Lion vs. FCC involved a case in which a small TV station broadcasted something contraversial. A viewer wrote in demanding free broadcast time in which to reply. They sent him a rate card. He challenged to the FCC, which sided with the viewer, as did the Supreme Court, in effect dictating that which a private media institution could broadcast. This regulation was repealed by the FCC on August 4, 1987.
In at least every legislative session between then and '93, the Democrats have introduced legislation to reinstitute it. Lieberman recently publicly stated that he misses the days of the Fairness Doctrine.
JK:
"The key is to finding out how to get current prisoners from returning to jail and make them into productive citizens. Do that, and we'll start to have a much better society."
Agreed, provisionally.
"Life in jail is much more punishment, IMHO, then death would be. That is why I am against the death penalty."
But which is better for society? Once the rights of the criminal are agreed not to be relevant, that is the only question. It's cheaper for the taxpayer to fund an execution than to fund fifty years in prison, is it not?
"But what is your position on the right to do what one wishes with one's body, when the exercise of that right involves the death of another?
Let's not get into a debate on when "life" begins..."
That was not the question.
"There are so many factors to take into consideration, but what it comes down to is, it's not my body"
But is not the body of the child the body in question? Would it not follow that the mother can not choose the actions to be undertaken on the child's body?
"Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous government are the equivilant to the ordered actions of a current government?
With regard to Lt. Calley and My Lai? No, of course not, but it did happen, and authorized or not, it was carried out in the name of the United States of America."
Do you believe that all things done in someone's name are consistant with their wishes?
"And its the same government. Different administration these days is all."
If a government has different people running it, would it not constitute a different government?
Would saying that the current administration is responsible for the actions of a rogue Lieutennant thirty years ago not be equivalent to saying that the CEO of Delta Airlines is responsible for the actions of a single pilot that crashed a plane before he was even born? If not, why?
"I believe peace means dealing with people we don't like, even the Chinese. We're not going to get them to change their outlook on things like Human Rights by threatening them with sanctions."
Do you believe the Chinese would cease their attrocities if we traded with them? If so, why?
"Look at it this way ... if your enemy suggests something, you shoot down that suggestion. But if your friend suggests something ..."
Do you believe that, if we had signed a treaty with Hitler, and asked him nicely, he would have stopped his "Final Solution?"
"What I said was that the Democratic National Party had never disregarded the Constitution when it was inconvenient."
Inconvenient in this case modifies "the Constitution." Thus, the expanded question is, "Why do you not respond to the accusation that the DNP disregards the constitution whenever the document proves inconvenient?"
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
------------------
Sean Robertson
[email protected]
http://www.webolutionary.com
http://www.mania-online.com
3D Gladiator Premier Forums Member
"Great is the glory for the strife is hard"
- Wordsworth
"Why must I be surrounded by frickin' idiots?"
- Dr Evil
*re-reads them again*
*and again*
*and again!*
I have one thing to say about all of this...
OY!
Quatre.
------------------
"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy
And I haven't seen any bashing by Omega-he's just asking questions... ones that seem very relevant too. Now, if he could get a straight answer to them, then it will get much more interesting.
------------------
"I'm not like George Bush. If he wins or loses, life goes on. I will do anything to win." - Al Gore, Newsweek, 1999
Okay ...
collective guilt
Do you think the parents of the Columbine killers feel guilt? What could we have done differently? What signs did we miss?
My Lai & Native Americans
The Government of the United States is responsible for:
a) Lt Calley's actions
b) The forceful relocation of Native Americans against their will
Lt. Calley was an officer in the employ of the Government of the United States of America. It is cowardly to not take responsibility for the actions he committed in the name of the U.S.A. Calley, while a US Officer, did knowingly order the murder of women and children.
This does not mean that the Gov't ordered him to do this. But a Government must take responsibility for the actions of its officers and soldiers. To do otherwise is irresponsible.
b) If you don't know what happened to the Native Americans, well, go read a book.
Government
Omega, you seem to confuse "government" ... look at the USSR. They've changed governments three times ... from a Monarchy, to a Communist Nation, to their current attempts at Democracy.
The United States of America has had the same government for two hundred plus years. Different people running it? Oh, certainly, but the same government ...
So, if whomever was running China when Tianamen Square occured left office, you'd be fine with trade relations? Same government, dude, just different guy in charge ... sounds like the same thing I suggested. Sheeesh.
Look at it this way. If Hitler was killed earlier in the war, and Goehrig took over, would it still be the same Nazi Government?
Fairness Doctrine
First Ammendment. Freedom of Speech. Pretty basic principles on which our country was formed. You really want to be a part of restricting that freedom?
Executions...
Are more expensive. You keep forgetting about our appeals process, Omega. Retrials cost MONEY. It is actually cheaper to keep someone in prison for their whole life. Due process is such a wonderful thing, is it not?
I don't expect Omega to listen to this. He doesn't seem to understand the concept that his whole argument seems to rely on the idea that executions save the state money, when, in fact, they don't...
Abortion
It's not your body, keep your hands off of it.
Constitution
Depends on how you interpret your question, I suppose. I read it to mean that the DNC disregarded the Consitution when it was inconvenient. Kinda stupid to do so, don't you think?
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 08, 2000).]
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 08, 2000).]
a) Lt Calley's actions
b) The forceful relocation of Native Americans against their will"
Do you believe that the current government is responsible for things done to people, now long dead, by a previous government? If so, what is your proposed solution?
"So, if whomever was running China when Tianamen Square occured left office, you'd be fine with trade relations?"
Yes, if the current dictator Jiang Zamin(SP) left office by whatever means, and the next government did not have a law restricting basic human rights, and had commited no attrocities, then, all other things being equal, I would support trade relations.
"Look at it this way. If Hitler was killed earlier in the war, and Goehrig took over, would it still be the same Nazi Government?"
That would depend on Goehrig's actions and beliefs. With different people in power, a country has different policies and laws, and is therefore a different government. Whether it's one man making them or a group of men doesn't matter.
"First Ammendment. Freedom of Speech. Pretty basic principles on which our country was formed. You really want to be a part of restricting that freedom?"
This question is ambiguous. To what are you refering? The answer to your question is, "No, I would not wish to interfere with a person's right to speak his mind."
"Are more expensive. You keep forgetting about our appeals process, Omega. Retrials cost MONEY."
But would not a person imprisoned for life be entitled to the same number of appeals as a person going to be executed? More, in fact, since he would live longer? If so, would it not follow that life imprisonment is, in fact, more expensive?
"It's not your body, keep your hands off of it."
This statement is ambiguous. Are you saying that a mother should not take any action negatively affecting the body of her unborn child?
"Depends on how you interpret your question, I suppose. I read it to mean that the DNC disregarded the Consitution when it was inconvenient. Kinda stupid to do so, don't you think?"
You are now aware of the question asked. What is your response?
What is your response to the remainder of the questions asked which you did not answer?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
Let us make one thing very clear here. It's the same godamn GOVERNMENT. Maybe I should say "system of government." Start using terms like "administration", would you KINDLY?
Lt. Calley & Native Americans
What I do not like, is people who condemn other nations for doing the same things that this nation has done, without acknowledging the fact that this nation has done those things. It's blindsided and dangerous.
China
Unless there's a revolution, even if Jiang left office, it'll still be the same government!
I just don't understand why you want to antagonize the Chinese, when the goal should be to make "peace" not "war", unless you really want us to get into a shooting war with China?
Goehrig
This again goes back to how you seem to think that new people in power mean a new government.
The United States of America has had two forms of government (you wouldn't be ignorant of the Articles of Confederation, would you?). We have had, within those two forms of government, forty-plus administrations. Government does not change, admins do. PLEASE, if this is NOT how you view things, tell me so.
Right To Speech
But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared? Last I saw, most magazines and newspapers had editorial pages. Do you want these taken away as well?
Appeals
It is my understanding that more appeals are granted to a person on death-row, therefore, no, it would not cost more money to keep someone alive.
Again, you apparently missed the crux of my argument, which is that a life sentence is more punishment than a death sentance. Not like you to go easy on a criminal, why the change of heart?
Consitution
Name some specifics, Omega. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't.
What is your answer to the remainder of the questions asked which you did not answer?
Thanks for asking, Omega. I've though about asking you the exact same thing on many occasions.
Can you describe what you believe would be the social ramifications of programs such as Hillary-Care
Yes, I already answered this one. A better society.
My question was why you assumed this, in fact, was what he meant
I answered this question, and this is what you replied to it. If Rob had said:
Misguided (whatever),
Then I would've assumed on the one specific issue.
Since he used a comma to seperate misguided into its own category, it then becomes a blanket statement. Why would Rob say Democrats are misguided? Could it be because he is not a Democrat, and therefore, those with different political views are misguided?
would it not, therefore, be a method of reducing the number of future murderers?
How so? Many murderers act on spur-of-the-moment, therefore, the possibility that they could be executed for their actions would not occur to them until after, and thus, execution would not serve as a deterent.
The key to preventing murder (well, what you can do, anyway), is social treatment. What people typically kill others? Identify those likely to become a murderer, get them counseling. Keep an eye on them.
abortion
Omega, I thought I've made my views very clear on this. Apparently not.
If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission. Etcetra, etcetra. Hence: if you're not a woman, and you're not pregnant, keep your fucking laws off of her.
Comprende?
Iran Contra
And I'd be happy too ... soon as you provide evidence that they didn't lie.
Have a nice day, Omega (the Closet Democrat).
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
Still, Omega, you're doing an excellent job.
>"But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared?"
Not as long as he pays the same fees that the people who put on the argument that offended him did. That was the point, though, that he didn't want to.
Think about that. If we gave everybody free time to air their views, we'd have nothing but political broadcasts on all day long. I don't know about you, but I've grown tired of that just in the weeks since the election.
>"How so? Many murderers act on spur-of-the-moment, therefore, the possibility that they could be executed for their actions would not occur to them until after, and thus, execution would not serve as a deterent."
Actually, a little bit of research will show that the amount of non-premeditated murders is really quite small, on the order of 5%. Most murders take place in the course of a long criminal career (averaging seven felonies BEFORE the first kill) and are indicative of a continuing behavior pattern.
>"Omega, I thought I've made my views very clear on this. Apparently not.
If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission. Etcetra, etcetra. Hence: if you're not a woman, and you're not pregnant, keep your fucking laws off of her."
Very good, very nice.
Respond please: why does the preceeding statement NOT apply to the living individual INSIDE the woman, and shouldn't you keep your fucking laws off of IT, as well?
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 08, 2000).]
Just by the fact that you refer to an un-born child as an "it" and not a "he" or "she" seems to betray how you feel about it.
The real question is, is it alive? We've had this debate before. As far as I'm concered, no, an unborn baby is not alive.
And no, I'm not in favor of partial-birth abortion.
Political Views
First, turn on the television. EVERYTHING is political views, or have you forgotten the mess we're in?
executions
Well damn! You've just made my argument for rehabilitation all the stronger. If we can rehabilitate 'em before they get back out on the street, we can save lives! Better to spend money on that than on incarcirating them again, yes?
**NOTE**
SeanR was correct in his earlier post. This is supposed to be a thread about how great our system is, and it has degenerated into a petty squabble over political ideology. Therefore, I shall post no more in this thread forever.
Thank you.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 08, 2000).]
A partially-born baby, in the manner in which they carry out the procedure, is still unborn, so you have no logical reasoning supporting your being for regular abortion but against that one type.
Rehabilitation doesn't work. Harsh rehabilitation (prison) has an 80% return-to-crime rate, and "Nice" rehabilitation... well, ask Mr. Downey Jr.
One of the saddest lessons we've learned from predators, especially the kind that prey on children, is that once you've crossed that line, it's nearly impossible to cross back over.
Psychological 'conditioning' has worked in so few cases it's rarely even identified as a potential alternative in serious discussions about the penal system.
Now, if we had the Tantalus colony's chair or B5's mind-wiping, THOSE might work, or they might not.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
You define "government" differently than I do. For the sake of argument, I will use your terms and definitions where possible.
"What I do not like, is people who condemn other nations for doing the same things that this nation has done, without acknowledging the fact that this nation has done those things."
I acknolwedge that the people in charge of this country, and people claiming to represent this country, have commited attrocities in the past. Do you believe that this justifies our supporting administrations in other countries that actively do so?
"I just don't understand why you want to antagonize the Chinese"
What is your basis for the conclusion that I wish to antagonize China?
"you wouldn't be ignorant of the Articles of Confederation, would you?"
No.
"But you've got no problems restricting a man's rights to a counter-argument on the same medium what angered him first appeared?"
Do you believe that the right to speak automatically conveys a right to be heard, in any medium desired? If so, how does this apply to the property rights of the owner of the press? Further, how does this apply to the freedom of expression of the publisher of the paper?
"Last I saw, most magazines and newspapers had editorial pages. Do you want these taken away as well?"
Do you believe that a government-mandated response in a privately controlled medium is equivalent to a voluntarily created editorial section?
The answer to your question is "No."
"Again, you apparently missed the crux of my argument, which is that a life sentence is more punishment than a death sentance."
Why should the punishment matter? Is not the objective to protect society? Thus, would the question not be, "What would be the best way to protect society from irredeemable criminals?"
"Name some specifics, Omega. To the best of my knowledge, they haven't."
You are refering to the accusation that the DNP disregards the constitution whenever it proves to be inconvenient?
The attempt to prevent the FL legislature from doing its constitutional duty.
The support of the Fairness Doctrine
The support of banning firearms
The support of banning school prayer
The support of Bill Clinton, a man who commited a crime and thus, according to the constitution, should have been removed from office
The DNP inniated attempt in the Senate to dictate what isles food products would be placed in in supermarkets
90% of the programs that FDR implemented
The existance of the FCC
The abduction of Elian Gonzales from his court-appointed guardians
Democrat judges writing new laws that do not exist
"Can you describe what you believe would be the social ramifications of programs such as Hillary-Care
Yes, I already answered this one. A better society."
As I said before, I request more specificity. What, exactly, would happen if HillaryCare had been implemented? Describe the program.
"Why would Rob say Democrats are misguided? Could it be because he is not a Democrat, and therefore, those with different political views are misguided?"
Yes, it could be. However, you seemed to assume that was the only possible interpretation of what he said. I wish to know why you assumed this.
"If you are an individual, it is your body. No one can tell you what to do with it. No one may touch you without your permission."
How does this apply to a doctor altering the body of an unborn child without his or her permission?
"Iran-Contra"
What is your evidence that any Republican lied in this event?
"Omega (the Closet Democrat)."
What is your basis for this conclusion?
"As far as I'm concered, no, an unborn baby is not alive."
What is your basis for this conclusion?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
1. I don't like abortion, but who, and why, should anyone be able to control people to that level. Because you think it's right to control people that much? <--this is the wrong anwser.... This was Hitler controlling those he didn't approve of.
I think 1sts use of it was to be PC, but I may be wrong. I will be using 'it' for ease of typing.
As for surgery on the unborn. If you are of the mind that it is a living person, then it is a minor and parental control is invoked. If you are of the mind that it is a parasite, then no worry, it has no rights. **Can we keep abortion seperate from executions?**
2. Yes, the US has done things that were wrong during its creation and expansion. Should we feel guilty about doing those things. Only if you were the one to do them. Should we learn from these past mistakes? Yes. Should we try to help other nations that are being ruled by people that are acting as we did. Yes.
**Before you jump on this, there are various levels of help. Missionary types and military types. But let's use education for this. Helping the others with education.**
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
An extremely dangerous assumption. Abortion is not surgery. Surgery carries with it the express purpose of suataining life, not ending it.
If you class abortion as surgery, and say that unborn people can be aborted simply because they are minors and as such, are under the 'control' of their parents... then how can you justify condemning parents who 'abort' their post-born children? Or who refuse them medical attention, thus allowing them to die? Wouldn't the same rules apply?
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
This, however, is not Jeopardy.
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
Quatre.
------------------
"Omae o korusu..." - Heero Yuy
------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
Some think that it is an avenue that should be kept open to an extent determined by ones beliefs and experiences.
Some think it should not be, and this is determined by their beliefs and experiences.
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
Do you agree with what Sol just said? If so, what beliefs and experiences lead you to believe that a woman has a right to control the body of her child, even to the point of harm?
Also, if anyone else who shares his beliefs would care to answer the questions I posed to JK, feel free. The following questions remain unanswered.
1) What would happen if the Democratic party got everything it wanted? Analyze programs such as HillaryCare and deduce the possible results of their implementation. As specifically as possible, how would you describe the resulting society?
2) Why do you believe Bush used drugs?
3) Why do you favor friendly relations with the government of China, which has killed thousands of people for no reason?
4) If you believe that 'if you are an individual, it is your body, and that no one can tell you what to do with it, and that no one may touch you without your permission,' does this apply to Siamese twins, where affecting one's body would nesecarily affect another person? Also, does it apply to the body of the unborn child in an abortion, who is being touched without his/her permission? If not, why not?
Effectively, what is your position on the right to do what one wishes with one's body, when the exercise of that right involves the death of another?
5) Can you think of, and provide evidence of, an instance where George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, et al. lied to the people of the country?
6(relating to China) Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous administration are equivalent to the ordered actions of a current administration? Do you believe that previous crimes commited by people claiming to represent this country justify dealing with murderers?
7) Do you believe that all intentionally caused human death, including capital punishment, is murder? If so, what is your position on abortion?
8) Do you believe the Chinese would cease their attrocities if we traded with them? If so, why?
9) Do you believe that the right to speak automatically conveys a right to be heard, in any medium desired? If so, how does this apply to the property rights of the owner of the press? Further, how does this apply to the freedom of expression of the publisher of the paper?
10) What is your response to the accusation that the DNP ignores the constitution wherever it proves inconvenient, given the list of events at the top of the page?
11) What is your basis for the belief that an unborn child is not alive?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
Sol said two different things there.
1) What would happen if the Democratic party got everything it wanted? Analyze programs such as HillaryCare and deduce the possible results of their implementation. As specifically as possible, how would you describe the resulting society?
My memories bad, and I am looking it up, but sites like www.conservative.org keep putting a slant on the actual content.
2) Why do you believe Bush used drugs?
Mmmm, alcohol is a drug.
3) Why do you favor friendly relations with the government of China, which has killed thousands of people for no reason?
No reason to you. The politicians were protecting their way of life, I can't agree with their way of life, but the idea of protecting ones way of life is natural.
4) If you believe that 'if you are an individual, it is your body, and that no one can tell you what to do with it, and that no one may touch you without your permission,' does this apply to Siamese twins, where affecting one's body would nesecarily affect another person? Also, does it apply to the body of the unborn child in an abortion, who is being touched without his/her permission? If not, why not?
One half of Siamese twins have been sacraficed for the other to live for quite sometime, very seldom do Siamese twin gain their majority.
The point of view of the fate of an unborn child rests solely on when people consider it a person in its own right. A partial birth abortion is wrong, the child is a person then and that is murder, to me. Since people to it, it must not be to them.
Effectively, what is your position on the right to do what one wishes with one's body, when the exercise of that right involves the death of another?
Circumstances mean everything, if I decide to not donate blood, that is my choice, even though that blood could save a life. Shooting myself in the heart is my choice, even though if I shot myself in the head my heart could be transplanted to a person that will die without it. See above for your abortion point on this.
5) Can you think of, and provide evidence of, an instance where George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, Bob Dole, et al. lied to the people of the country?
If I remember didn't the entire GOP have their �Contract with America', which wasn't followed through on? (I know a question....) This Contract involved eliminating the Department of Education, now the GOP package has $40+ billion funding section for them.
6)(relating to China) Do you believe that the unauthorized actions of a few under a previous administration are equivalent to the ordered actions of a current administration? Do you believe that previous crimes commited by people claiming to represent this country justify dealing with murderers?
No, and we should not do anything good towards Yugoslav Federation, even though they voted in a different guy for their leader, since the previous leader, that the people rioted against, killed all those ethnic Albanians.
7) Do you believe that all intentionally caused human death, including capital punishment, is murder? If so, what is your position on abortion?
Nope, I do believe in the �eye for an eye' routine. I am going to say, and I'll catch hell for it, that until the end of the 20th week it is an it, a growth. After that it can be considered to be alive. My reasoning for this is that premie babies born before this have a high mortality rate. My son was emergency C-sectioned at 24 weeks, and was given a low chance to live, 40%. He's six now.
8) Do you believe the Chinese would cease their attrocities if we traded with them? If so, why?
By opening a door to trading with the Chinese we can get our feet in there, speaking for the �free world'. As we get more people in there starting up companies and supervising factories the word will travel more about what they are doing. The government will be pressured by the rest of the world to be better, or we will have our factories pull out. After the Chinese calculate the hurt that can be put on them, financially, they may ease up on their people.
9) Do you believe that the right to speak automatically conveys a right to be heard, in any medium desired? If so, how does this apply to the property rights of the owner of the press? Further, how does this apply to the freedom of expression of the publisher of the paper?
People can spout all they want, in any form they want. Whether it is in the local rag, on the internet, or standing on a street corner. If people listen, great, if not, hey, you got to have your say.
Same thing, only societies narrow minded ideas of �bad' words is a limiting factor.
(Omega, you're a church goer, doesn't say that God only said not to use his name in vain? Not that fuck and shit are �bad' words? This is what I mean about societies narrow minded point of view.)
10) What is your response to the accusation that the DNP ignores the constitution wherever it proves inconvenient, given the list of events at the top of the page?
The support of the Fairness Doctrine � Support doesn't mean ignoring....
The support of banning firearms � Support doesn't mean ignoring....
The support of banning school prayer � Support doesn't mean ignoring....
The support of Bill Clinton, a man who commited a crime and thus, according to the constitution, should have been removed from office � Republican led Congress didn't impeach him....
The DNP inniated attempt in the Senate to dictate what isles food products would be placed in in
supermarkets � This was stupid
90% of the programs that FDR implemented � Extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures
The existance of the FCC � Forgot the IRS
The abduction of Elian Gonzales from his court-appointed guardians � To return to his dad.
11) What is your basis for the belief that an unborn child is not alive?
Please see #7.
12) What is your opinion on the fact that this thread has 9,000,000 different topics going on at the same time?
This isn't a thread, it's an interrogation.......
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited December 11, 2000).]
The abortion issue is far from clear cut. Would you allow a woman to have an abortion just as she's going into labour? Or would you allow it at 8 months?
That's the main thing I have with it. I do agree with abortion sometimes, but where do you draw the line? I'd say that it's still a blob of cells after a couple of weeks, but after 20?
------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
How do you feel about people on an iron lung, respirator, dialysis, or some other artificial life-support system?
For that matter, how do you feel about spaceship/starship crews, whose survival is dependent upon an external life-support system?
"Carbon units infesting USS Enterprise..."
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Even with life support and the best Docs the chances were in the single digits. Before the 20th week the chances were lower than single digits.
Mind you this was almost 7 years ago, so my 20th week maybe high.
How do you feel about people on an iron lung, respirator, dialysis, or some other artificial life-support system?
Badly. Although this is somewhat similer to the issue, it is not truely relevent. Unless your embryo is in an iron womb.
For that matter, how do you feel about spaceship/starship crews, whose survival is dependent upon an external life-support system?
"Carbon units infesting USS Enterprise..."
They should be aborted before the 20th week of thier flight..... Come now.
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 12, 2000).]
Several of you seem to want JeffK and I to defend our belief that we shouldn't be the ones to make laws concerning a womens body, and that of the growth in her that becomes her child.
I am now asking you people to defend you belief that you should make laws that cover such an intimate thing in a womens life. How much control will this law have.
Scenario:
Abortion is outlawed.
Ok, now you have this law, what follows.
Pregnant women drinks, she is fined for the first offense, fined and 1 week in jail for the second, incarcerated for the third and loses custody of the child when born, even if she wanted it.
Same thing for smoking cigarettes.
Illegal or illegally obtained drugs the penalty jumps right to the third drinking offense, with a longer term in prison.
Sound like bullshit, it won't be if laws ar passed controlling a womens body.
So, now you can stop asking us if it's right or wrong, that point was moot, since we said it wasn't for us to decide. You seem to want to make this decesion, so make it.
Do you want a law prohibiting abortion?
Do you want exceptions to said law for rape? Why?
How do you plan on keeping the law from evolving on to the little scenario that is above?
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
My question is this: why do you see a difference between killing a child in the womb and killing a child outside the womb? They are both living human beings, with all the rights thereto entitled. One's inside, one's outside. What's the difference?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
I suppose my point has less to do with abortion than it does a certain kind of ethical thinking. Namely, one that judges today's actions exclusively by tomorrow's results. It's an interesting discussion, though one that I doubt we'll get to, being too busy calling each other murderers and fascists.
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
Wha? You guys could stand some grammer lessons. Between reading you and JK, MY grammer's getting screwed up.
Sol:
"If you are willing to consider a fertilized egg as being fully human because it may someday develop, does this extend to any species which may someday evolve sentience?"
There's a difference between considering the life of a sentient that actively exists, and a theoretical one that may or may not exist millions of years hence.
And I'm only allowing for the possiblity of evolution for the sake of argument, before anyone jumps on THAT.
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
I couldn't resist =)
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited December 13, 2000).]
No less a thinker than St. Augustine, by the way, wrote that a fetus could not be considered human until it could feel pain. Which isn't to say that I think that's the requirement, but it's food for thought.
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
------------------
DEAverification :P
This is a nice 'switch' in tactics for you too.....
Now, don't ask me another question, or anybody any questions, till you answer the ones posted to you. You seem to be making yourself in to what you accuse others of being, which is making you look bad.
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
As for the rest of you, how can you arbitrarily decide that, "OK, this is alive, and this isn't?" It all comes down to the benefit of the doubt. If it was suddenly discovered that certain flies could communicate with humans, but only a miniscule percentage of them, would you still not hesitate to swat them?
What gives you the right to define human life in such a manner that it excludes certain beings that could be included? In fact, why would you want to? Simply so you can avoid the consequences of your actions, if you please?
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
Talk to women who have had abortions. You'll find that many are deeply regretful of what they did. It's not avoiding the consquences, its about making a choice and living with it.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
1. All laws that exist are aimed at controllling someone's body or actions. ALL of them.
2. Laws of this type already exist. There's laws against poisoning people, didn't you know that? There are already a few laws against self-destructive behavior.
Myself, I don't have a problem with self-destructive behavior. If you wanna poison your system, FINE. I don't care. Snort the coke, jump the bungee, put the pistol to your head.
The problem arises when you decide to take somebody else WITH you, and don't give them any say in the matter. That we can't agree on.
So yeah, if she drinks and smokes while pregnant, tough shit for her! Everybody KNOWS that's bad for a developing fetus, so this falls, once again, under "shoulda thought of that before we left."
*Digression*
That's why my solution to the drug legalization problem is so simple: We'll legalize the stuff, but if you harm another person while under its influence, we shoot you in the face. That's fair.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited December 13, 2000).]
*dies*
Sol: "There is a difference between being human and becoming human. There is a point during anyone's life where they cross that line. Before that point, I have no more problem with an abortion than I do with haircuts. After that point, I begin to have ethical concerns, dependant upon the situation."
I agree with some of this. The main problem I have is what Omega keeps saying. Where do you draw the line. To take Sol's quote above, when do you see the point at which the person crosses the line? When the heart starts breathing? When they turn around in the womb? When they start school?
I wouldn't want to judge it. If the situation warrented it, I would probably agree with abortions if they were done as soon as possible. Would anyone here agree with abortion if the woman was 8 months pregnent?
------------------
"I am in one of those rare periods of life where I am convinced I am a sexy devil."- Simon "Sol System" Sizer
*odd bit of humor follows* "I really wanna cooky, but I'll spoil my supper. So I won't eat the cooky"
You qualify as human if you can do this more than half the time.
You qualify as expert-human if you can get OTHER people to do it.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
"I finally see that what we thought was a fun way to celebrate our love was really an expression of hostility and disrespect toward Jesus."
--
Bill Metz, in The Onion
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Now with 30% more plot.
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
I'd honestly prefer to see all abortions done within the first trimester.
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 7.5 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
Shop Smart -- Shop "S"-Mart
Besides that, it seems to me that we've gotten off the real issue, which is whether the government should be making laws in this regard and what those laws should say. I for one do not have much faith in laws that attempt to sort out such murky questions. To that end, I am opposed to any ban on abortion because it is a sometimes necessary medical procedure. That it can be abused to commit murder is horrible, of course. But I have yet to see any law that attempts to deal with the situation in an intelligent and reasonable manner.
------------------
I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
****
Read chapter TWO of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
------------------
Well, it's done, yes, the deed is done.
What they do is give the mother a drug that relaxes her cervex. Some days later, they reach into her body with forceps, pull the child out, and THEN brutally murder it. It's a common misconseption that it's done as the woman is in labor.
------------------
"You know, you--you let a wolf save your life, they make you pay and pay and pay..."
- Fraser, "due South"
It is almost impossible to find any unbiased information about abortion online, however, so no luck on anything more specific for now.
------------------
I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.
"Yes OM67-UUUU.MM. It is now time for us to assemble a new infantile unit, please begin the assembly."
"My logistical units are malfunctioning, it occurs to me that perhaps this assembly is not convient for the proper functioning of my activation period."
"What do you mean OM67-UUUU.MM?"
"If an infantile robotic unit is introduced, it may provide a disturbance in the long term goals I have had programmed into me by my creator. I am under the impression that I am intended to become an ambassadorial protocol robot, and not a solitary parental unit feeding the necessary subroutines to properly intigrate the infantile unit. Perhaps we should abort construction."
At this point, Arnold Schwarzenegger as Terminator crashes through the cieling and fires a barrage of grenades from his gun, all the while managing to retort: "Abort this, motherfuckers."
Aaahh. When can I be a robot?
------------------
"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
------------------
I have been floated to this spot this hour
On a series of events
I cannot explain
--
Olivia Tremor Control
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Read, read, read, read, read me now.
*ow, that hurt!*
------------------
"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master