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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
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Frank's Home Page
"Brave New World: 'The future sucks. Or does it? Hell if I know. Ooh, LSD!'" - Simon Sizer
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 05, 2001).]
The point is: don't blame the system, don't blame the instrument.
BLAME THE PERSON.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.
Also, while I'm not familiar with the Brittish socialized medical system, it's at least possible that people don't get a choice of doctors at all.
But Fo2's right. The system is not to blame that those people are dead, the person who killed them is. Not to say that the system shouldn't be changed, if such a change could prevent further such incidents.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
[This message has been edited by Ultra Magnus (edited January 05, 2001).]
So let it be written. So let it be done.
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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
Besides, what can one really say.
"Bad doctor for killing people?"
"First do no harm, or baring that, take out as many as you can is not the oath."
Oh, as an aside, "Remember, outside the military, 'government-run' = 'inefficient' is farking Hi-larious.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 05, 2001).]
Evils of socialist medicine, my ass. In the United Kingdom, you need to go to a doctor, you choose which practise you go to. But fear not, healthinsuranceophiles, there are still private doctors you pay to go see if you really want to. How many of said doctors kill or don't kill their patients, I can't say - no statistics available. But I have no doubt whatsoever that if all of us in the UK paid our doctors directly, they wouldn't be rude enough to kill us. It's obviously the strain of working for a socialist system that drives them to these terrible crimes.
Oh, by the way - abortion's 100% legal here too.
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
Interesting choice of words.
In any case, I don't believe your frustration with my arguments constitute valid grounds for banishment.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
You know, this is very mean-spirited, IMO. You might find problems with what Omega says, but that's your problem, not the board's.
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Frank's Home Page
"Brave New World: 'The future sucks. Or does it? Hell if I know. Ooh, LSD!'" - Simon Sizer
ummmm, yeah, ok, I'll shut up.....
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
Now, where's that helpful large intestine?
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
HE, being a foreigner, but more importantly paying cash, got treatment right away... bumped to the head of the very long line.
Apparently, inequity still exists, despite all claims to the contrary.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
If he payed cash, he went private. He didn't jump ahead of the queue. He went to a completely different queue.
You get what you pay for. The difference is, if you can't pay for it, you still get it.
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Are the private doctors better than the public ones? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that that's true, but you can see how I might think that. Over here, the decent doctors would go private, because they can actually make money that way, and talent goes where the money is. In fact, that's exactly what would have happened under HillaryCare.
"The difference is, if you can't pay for it, you still get it."
But the question is, are you going to treated before you die of whatever? It's happened in Canada. People have died, IN HOSPITALS, while the government tried to make up its mind over whether they really NEEDED treatment or not.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
"Yes, but the people in the paying queue got seen FIRST."
Well, out of the people who paid. If you pay, you don't jump in front of EVERYBODY, just the people who are paying. The people who don't pay are still in a different line.
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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
According to whjat I remember him telling me, they made the non-payers wait while they dealt with whatever payers came in FIRST, regardless of when they arrived, their condition, or anything else.
In other words, if A,B,C, and D non-payers came in, and the Doc saw A, and B was next, if E, F, and G payers came in, even though they arrived after D, they'd go first. And if he got through with E,F, & G, and saw B, and then H,I,&J payers came in, he'd see them before C.
So you'd have:
AEFGBHIJCD.
Poor D, he's gonna be there all day.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
A, B, C, D are non-payers.
E, F, G, H are dudes with dough.
ABCD go to the Municipal Hospital, maintained and run through the support of the Federal government, with some aid provided by the Provincial gov't.
EFGH go to a liscensed, private professional, usually in a seperate buidling, non-related to the Hospital.
Sometimes, because the city in which I live in is quite old-fashioned, the doctor treating B will send him to where the EFGH's go, and that doctor will accept him free of charge.
It's all about how seriously you need treatment, and how long you can afford (or not to) wait.
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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
quote:
But the question is, are you going to treated before you die of whatever? It's happened in Canada. People have died, IN HOSPITALS, while the government tried to make up its mind over whether they really NEEDED treatment or not.
So what's the point?
Is is that one one ever dies while waiting on the private health care system in the US to decide if paying for a procedure or denying the procedure entirely is better for their bottom line?
Is it comparison and no one waits or dies in the perfect emergency care system in America?
Could it be that you advocate should export the America system where emergency rooms are shutting their doors at an alarming rate and patients for the ones left open are piling up like chord wood?
Is it private bureaucracy is better than a public one?
Is it that the UK and other countries in the world like to have at least a modicum of health care for everyone and damn them for trying?
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
As a question, are vaccinations free in the US?
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
I mean, come on, guys! Flameboard! Where's the social Darwinism, the extoling of the virtues of medical insurance, bible bollocks, all that crap we'd expect you to come out with? I mean, look at this, a whole post and I haven't insulted anyone yet, give me something to work with here!
Anyway. As regards First's dad, I'd be interested to hear more. Presumably he was over here on business, I'd guess he has employer's medical insurance, and he was probably treated using that. The most likely course of events was that after suffering the initial symptoms, he went to an ordinary doctor, the initial diagnosis was made, and he was referred to treatment using his insurance. Probably somewhere else with a different doctor.
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
Medical insurance, ths Australian example.
Take a man earning $50 000. He pays $250 a year as his medicare levy, inclided into your taxes. Now, that gives him cover. On the other hand, if he has a family of 4 he pays $250 a month to some private insurance firm. Shite, its far more logical to go private ain't it! You see old boy, there is a certain logic to a central health system, which is why our lot get kick arse medical cover. Do you think so many people would do it, all over the world, if it didn't work?
Perhaps you're forgetting that the pharmacy firms and the insurance firms are pushing your angle so hard because they would go out of business if the states adopted a central health system.
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited January 08, 2001).]
If the pharmasutical companies went out of business, where, exactly, would the patients get necessary drugs? And where would R&D take place on new ones? Exactly what do you think these companies do with their money, anyhow? Fill their mattresses with it? They spend it on R&D to create new drugs! This is generally considered a good thing.
Thus, if pharmacutical companies would, in fact, go out of business with central health care, we can determine central health care to be a BAD THING, on that basis alone.
Do you think so many people would do it, all over the world, if it didn't work?
And if all the other countries decided to nuke themselves, or declare war on the US, or some other patently stupid thing, would you do it, too? Appeal to mass popularity is not a legitimate debating tactic.
What they are for is everyone shelling out for everything.
Bingo. What an amazing concept: paying for what you want, yourself.
As for your incredibly wonderful government health care, how EXACTLY does it work, on the receiving end? Do you just show up at the doctor, he treats you, and you go home, never worrying about the money? The Doc just sends a bill to wherever the local branch of the medical bureaucracy is located?
Which also reminds me: you honestly think that that $250 a year is all you're paying? Does that include paying for bureaucrats to run the system? Or does that come out of general funds? I'd like to see your federal budget, personally, just as a matter of curiosity.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited January 08, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."
As for who gives a rat's a**, you're answer is this: those of us who are interested in finding the truth. That requires rational conversation, and THAT requires legitimate debates. If someone makes an invalid point, it should not be allowed to stand, because it's misleading. It's as simple as that.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited January 08, 2001).]
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 08, 2001).]
Omega's hubris seems to tell him it's ok to say things that are unsupported and when questioned ignore the quesiton.
*shurg*
Don't make him right, it just makes him Omega.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
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"Life end when you die. But imagination share with others, live forever."
--Quan, Final Fantasy IX
Now, everyone go back to talking about Omega's "farmy-kootical" companies...
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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
when it is valid to ignore someone's arguments by claiming it's not a valid debate tactic?
When they're not. Perhaps something called a "book" would help you.
Ziyal:
Finding the truth or attention-hungry?
Exactly why would I give a darn whether I got the attention of people I don't know or not?
Ritten:
Isn't flaming a topic the same as flaming a person
No. There's a difference between a persons actions and beliefs and the person themself. Just because, say, someone believes something wrong or stupid, that does not necessarily make THEM stupid.
"Farmy-tootykal" kompanyes are out, like all big corporations, to make money for their stock holders.
Obviously. What's wrong with this? They make money by providing a service people are willing to pay for, and they create jobs in the process. And, of course, since without the stockholders the company wouldn't exist, it's their right to take the profits. Works for me, and has for this country for the past couple centuries.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited January 08, 2001).]
"As for your incredibly wonderful government health care, how EXACTLY does it work, on the receiving end? Do you just show up at the doctor, he treats you, and you go home, never worrying about the money?"
Yes.
"The Doc just sends a bill to wherever the local branch of the medical bureaucracy is located?"
I'm not exactly sure how decentralised the NHS is, but yes, I assume something like that. It wouldn't be a bill as such though, anymore than the photocopying department of a large company would send a bill to the finance department.
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
I was pointing out the fact that a huge portion of the world is ruled by greed, just ask the politicos in Michigan, which just gave themselves a 37% pay raise.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited January 08, 2001).]
But people can change their opinions, thus rendering your point moot. Thus I deem your statement to be incorrect. I say this so people can't accuse me of ignoring it.
Saying "You're wrong" does not constitute flaming a person.
Case in point...
I was pointing out the fact that a huge portion of the world is ruled by greed
You're wrong. The world is ruled by the desire to better the condition of yourself and those you care about. Only a few translate this into anything that can legitimatly be called greed.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
quote:
Daryus, you're forgetting one thing. Actually, you're missing a couple other things, too, but this just screams out, "I've just shot meself in the foot!"
Uh huh. This I have to see.
quote:
If the pharmasutical companies went out of business, where, exactly, would the patients get necessary drugs?
Who said anything about them going out of business? All I stated was that they push the private angle for their own benefit, not for the benefit of the consumer. Speaking of which, are you aware of the steps these firms take to ensure that they remain in business? Lets take an example. You're all aware by now that the bulk of international trade law is rigged to be favourable to the USA. This is not news. Here's a recent example. In southern India there is an ancient system of medicine known as the Aruvedan (Not sure on spelling) system. It uses pressure points herbs etc. Now, they have certain herbs which are very effective in combating respiratory problems. A US pharmesuitcal firm bought the patent on this when they 'discovered' it. You'd assume they'd be happy now that they have the patent right? Wrong. After getting the patent they had the natural version of the drug put on the dangerous list, in effect this means that traditional practitioners can't practice anymore. Now, you can only buy the synthesised drug from them, legally anyway. This is one tiny example of how corporate wankers act.
How are you, as a so called advocate of the free market, willing to support companies that charge outrageous rates for medical supplies, such as drugs, which are an essential to life? Doesn't that go against some moral beliefs you hold. Or, is it all ok under the guise of a 'free market'?
quote:
And where would R&D take place on new ones? Exactly what do you think these companies do with their money, anyhow? Fill their mattresses with it? They spend it on R&D to create new drugs! This is generally considered a good thing.
Sure, but then do it on a non-profit basis. Any funding beyond their bare minimum should go to a hospital fund, or something. Get rid of profits alltogether if you're doing this for such moral reasons.
quote:
Thus, if pharmacutical companies would, in fact, go out of business with central health care, we can determine central health care to be a BAD THING, on that basis alone.
Nonsense. You do jump to some interesting conclusions. These companies are made up for people with brains. It wouldn't matter if they were working for the government, or that donkey down the street. They'd get the same results.
Daryus Said: Do you think so many people would do it, all over the world, if it didn't work?
Omega replied:
quote:
And if all the other countries decided to nuke themselves, or declare war on the US, or some other patently stupid thing, would you do it, too? Appeal to mass popularity is not a legitimate debating tactic.
Legimiate tactic? Dude, this is not a nice little controlled arena. I'm going to make points, however I damn well like. If you can't grasp what I am getting at, then spend more time getting to the crux of the message. It'll be worth it, beleive me.
By the way, your example above is so lame I think an irrate ant with a toothpick would overcome it.
Daryus said: What they are for is everyone shelling out for everything.
Omega replies:
quote:
Bingo. What an amazing concept: paying for what you want, yourself.
Wait, did you just MISS THE POINT yet again. Lets go over it chum.
Australia, AD 2001.
You earn $50 000. You pay $250 in medicare inside your tax payment. For that, you get cover.
Now, you could go private in which case you'd be paying $3000 a year.
You get it? This is far more cost effective. Everyone is eligable for cover. From Mr Kerry Packer, Australias richest man to Mr Daryus Aden who isn't worth anywhere near $8bn.
quote:
As for your incredibly wonderful government health care, how EXACTLY does it work, on the receiving end? Do you just show up at the doctor, he treats you, and you go home, never worrying about the money? The Doc just sends a bill to wherever the local branch of the medical bureaucracy is located?
The doctor submits an invoice to the medicare. They process it and pay him for the consultation. I just have to sign on the dotted line confirming that I have in fact been to the doctor and had the ailment taken care of. The invoice covers the details.
quote:
Which also reminds me: you honestly think that that $250 a year is all you're paying? Does that include paying for bureaucrats to run the system? Or does that come out of general funds? I'd like to see your federal budget, personally, just as a matter of curiosity.
You don't get it as yet. It still works out more cost effective than your little private empire. And not only that, everyone is covered. Which is more important to me than the end cost. Even if it were more expensive (and its not) I'd support it, because every man woman and child deserves to be cared for. Old boy
As for the budget, I think you'll be able to find it through www.liberal.gov.au or somesuch.
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
Calling someone dumb or stupid is the part that I find, mmm, repulsive.
Which is why I don't do that.
Daryus:
How are you, as a so called advocate of the free market, willing to support companies that charge outrageous rates for medical supplies, such as drugs, which are an essential to life?
Did it ever occur to you that that's what they cost to make?
As for your plant example, that would be an example of bad laws. You shouldn't be able to patent a natural substance.
Get rid of profits alltogether if you're doing this for such moral reasons.
Daryus, man, you may be older than me, but there are some things you really need to learn about people. For one, if everything that got done was done for moral reasons, then almost nothing would get done. People are out to better their lifestyle, and that means making money and getting paid, and THAT means the private sector. Which, funnily enough, works pretty well over here. For most people, if given the choice between developing a drug for nothing, and doing so for the money they need to support their family, the latter will win, hands down.
These companies are made up for people with brains. It wouldn't matter if they were working for the government, or that donkey down the street. They'd get the same results.
Not true. If there was only one buyer, then prices would be dictated by that buyer. Prices would be forced down, with detrimental effects on the company, and thus the product, jobs, and R&D.
I'm going to make points, however I damn well like.
And I'll shoot them down based on either factual error, or logical fallicy, of which appeal to mass popularity is one. Fair enough?
The doctor submits an invoice to the medicare. They process it and pay him for the consultation.
Who determines how much he gets paid?
It still works out more cost effective than your little private empire. And not only that, everyone is covered.
And all you have to give up is innovation, the rights of doctors and medical companies, and a huge chunk of your economy. This, compaired to the fact that it's cheaper. Let's see. Figure in obvious costs, plus bureaucratic costs, plus detriment to your economy and the other disadvantages listed, and I'd say that we're just a LITTLE better off with our system, under which everyone can get treatment, too.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
which is why I don't do that
Hold up. I seem to recall you calling me an ignorant liberal. You say you don't do that? I beg to disagree.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 08, 2001).]
All I'm saying is, how is saying something is not a valid debating tactic a valid debating tactic?
Debates are based upon logic. All legitimate debating tactics are logical, and the converse is also true. Pointing out that a statement is not logical is thus a legitimate debating tactic.
Perhaps I would have been better served to say that the statement was not logical.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
He seems to be doing that in nearly every Flameboard thread. It's not just you.
"Exactly why would I give a darn whether I got the attention of people I don't know or not?"
If you don't care, why do you post? If you don't care, why do you care about changing the opinions of others?
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"Life end when you die. But imagination share with others, live forever."
--Quan, Final Fantasy IX
quote:
Calling someone dumb or stupid is the part that I find, mmm, repulsive.Which is why I don't do that.
Is that from the Pot Calling the Kettle Black Department or from the Bureau of Out and Out Lies?
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
And from the Land of the Convoluted
quote:
Debates are based upon logic. All legitimate debating tactics are logical, and the converse is also true. Pointing out that a statement is not logical is thus a legitimate debating tactic.
Your singular pronouncements as such hold as much water as a tin cup on a fence post in Texas duing shotgun season.
One of maximus of debats is to back up what you say and answer questions about things you say. Neither of which you do with any sort of regularity Omega. Instead we get the duck and cover debate tatics. More avoidance and evasion than during the Nixon administration.
You fail to answer one question more than any other. Why. Why are things the way you say they are. Simple as it sounds it lies at the heart of good arguments. When questioned on that issue, you bugger out like a Thunder Chief with a Surface to Ail Missile on it's tail.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 09, 2001).]
But that's not my point. What I called "attention" may be better termed as "control" (there's an even better term, but this is not the setting for it). It's a cycle nearly everybody has fallen into, certainly everybody who's ever participated in an argument. I'm trying to stop the cycle, but I'm not sure how to go about this.
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"Life end when you die. But imagination share with others, live forever."
--Quan, Final Fantasy IX
What about when someone disagrees or mocks what you're saying? You get mad and you try to get back at them (Ignoring someone's argument or saying "it doesn't count" applies).
Uh... no. I don't. And no, it does NOT apply. Pointing out logical holes in someone else's argument can not possibly, in any rational setting, be construed as getting back at them.
Jay:
You fail to answer one question more than any other.
Oh, please, tell me what this great mythical question is, and I will do my best to rectify my apparent error.
Maybe you should be more careful about what you write instead of printing retractions and adding spin.
Yes. Again, I was in a hurry. Sorry, and all that. Not that I expect you to believe me.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
No it isn't.
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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.
There's no evidence of any far-reaching man-made problem with the environment. As for trees, the quote you're probably looking for is, "The only thing beautiful about a tree is what you do with it after you cut it down." Not necessarily a sentiment I agree with.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
"What colour is the sky in that little world of yours, Omega?"
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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles
I am glad I did read that, as throughout during the day, I was having quite a difficult dispersing the waste fluids from my body. Thankfully, I laughed so hard at this, I pissed all down my leg. My condondondrum is solved.
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"Karate is a form of martial arts in which people who have had years and years of training can, using only their hands and feet, make some of the worst movies in the history of the world." - Dave Barry
And since you're generally given over to extreme statments, that is a fault (again imho).
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 09, 2001).]
I stated that there is no evidence of something. That, by definition, is not a statement that can be proven. It's a universal negative. I was stating that an unproven claim is false. The ball's not in my court.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
And no Captain Hyperbole, I think that debunking every theory would be too much, even for you. As I said, you have a problem of answering the why behind your extreme statements. And that is a general fault I find with most of your arguments.
A specific example and one related to the argument in question is on the first page of this thread. I asked a series of questions about one of your sweeping generalizations and you failed to answer. Now, if this were about winning an losing as you seem to think it is, then by your silence, I win because you can't back up what you say.
Since good dicsussion isn't about winning and losing, then I don't really care (the above is to make a point) and your "look over there" misdirection of saying "...not about to do your research..."** is made out of whole cloth because you need to defend the material you write. In general you do not. Rather seeking to imploy any number of diversions to seek your goal...whatever that may be.
**The mere thought of you doing my research lowers my iq and the quality of anything I would write.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 10, 2001).]
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My new year's resolution is the same as last year's: 1024x768.
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
------------------
"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Luke Ford: "What's it like having a dick in your ass?"
Zoe: "Imagine taking your bottom lip and pulling it over the top of your head. You get used to it but it does hurt."
------------------
"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
I don't know if we have any people online here from FL, but I've spoken to three Floridians, and they all tell the same story (even the Democrat): Before the election, ads were inserted in newspapers reminding people that hanging, dimpled, and pregnant chads would NOT be counted, so that if they wanted their votes to count, they should be SURE to poke their ballots thoroughly.
They also tell me that at THEIR polling places, everyone who got a ballot also got a similar reminder, that unpunched, dimpled, pregnant, etc. ballots would NOT be counted.
I'm also waiting for the FL folks to invalidate the 300+ democratic votes that were cast by ineligible felons, and the several thousand that were cast by unregistered immigrants.
IMHO, that's the reason talk of an independent recount has died down rather quickly.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
[This message has been edited by Ritten (edited January 10, 2001).]
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
I was asked for my id and checked off a list last time I voted in the Los Angeles area.
Then again, I did see a bus load of homeless people being taken from poll to poll and emptied so they could exchange their vote for a draught of whiskey.
I know it would be silly to ask where that bit of conjecture came from.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
Plastic & chemical pollutants killing of animals & plants
Overuse of non-renewable natural resources
Air pollution from burning coal & petrolium
Nuclear waste
Now, the above have been backed by a plethora of reputable scientists. I know Rush has some scientist that claims all the others are wrong. But on the up side, if you'd just open your eyes and look about you'd see Rush is wrong.
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
Daryus:
You'll notice I said "far-reaching." Nuclear waste is an extremely localized problem. Far more localized than the air polution in cities. Yeah, there are some small areas where there are problems, but the vast majority of the world is still in good shape. When was the last time you heard of someone in the middle of your Outback getting sick from air pollution?
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
Yes, there are areas with bad air pollution. Yes, there are areas with higher levels of radioactivity than are usually found. But these areas are EXTREMELY SMALL. Thus my statement of their being no far-reaching man-made environmental problem stands.
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
But they cleaned it up, and it was still clean while the mills were still going.
Pittburgh's clean, and LA doesn't have steel mills... so why is LA still smoggy? It CAN'T have less clear air standard enforcement than Pittsburgh.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Don't forget about Houston though...there was a brief point over the last couple of years that it beat LA for smoggiest city.
And yes dear friends, the only reason that LA, Houston or Pittsburg PA has better air today is because of regulation.
Halleluiah and pass the unleaded!
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 11, 2001).]
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
No, I've never seen little rings like that used for any kind of hunting, they might have been from the marker ballons placed by the state to note air sprayers of where to hit for the gypsy moth crap.
Along with the pollution created I think LA has a thing with its location and weather, something about the winds and the humidity helping to bottle it up, or some such thing.
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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"
Or the period for which regulation will work?
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
Why is LA smoggy?
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"...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing."
- Harlan Ellison, on the Media Consumer of today.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
If you had 400 cities, and 399 were clear as a bell, and 1 had a single little puff of smoke, it could still be called "the smoggiest city out of 400."
Air quality everywhere is probably better than it's been in 50 years, especially in industrial cities. Is this due to regulation? At least partly, though it's also due to public pressure, cleaner technology, and less use of the 'dirtier' methods simply by attrition. This amount of regulation isn't a bad thing. Don't misunderstand, I don't think we should get rid of ALL regulation. there have to be SOME standards, after all.
However, we are now reaching the point of diminishing returns, where overregulation is beginning to have detrimental effects, such as increasing prices (due to the cost of complying with regulations and paperwork).
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
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Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
For someone whos supposed to be concerned about people with low incomes, (at least, that's what the Democrats USED to claim to be about) you don't worry about rising prices? Increases in the cost of living? Isn't that an inherent philosophical contradiction?
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000
Good idea. Increase the tax on the people and businesses that generate the income for nearly everybody else in the state, thusly trashing economic growth. The closing of businesses that follows will decrease the power demand significantly, which should more than cover the increased demand put out by all the unemployed workers who will now be at home.
Brilliant!
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
Good one.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 12, 2001).]
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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
I merely pointed out why 'tax-and-spend' is a failure as a solution, albeit in a rather sarcastic tone of voice. The logic of the argument remains solid.
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master
------------------
20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.
------------------
Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
------------------
Re: Russia in WWII
"Hey, we butchered Poles! Thats OK."
- DT.
------------------
"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson
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"Life end when you die. But imagination share with others, live forever."
--Quan, Final Fantasy IX
Rather a red herring in that it is far too singular and simplistic.
Business talks out of one side of the business face about free market this and free market that. However the other side of the face is asking for, accepting and defending government assistance and corporate welfare while eschewing regulation. That speaks volumes about the hypocracy of the corporate world.
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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 16, 2001).]
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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master