Flare Sci-Fi Forums: CA's Energy Crisis: Flight of Fancy

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Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

So recently the news has been all full of how deregulation has somehow managed to lead to higher costs for energy in California, and somehow caused the energy shortage a few days ago.

Reportedly, CA stations were short some 11,000 Megawatts, causing roaming brownowts and outages as CA's overburdened system struggled to keep up with demand.

That's what they're SAYING, anyway.

Here's some information that may shed new light on the subject, though.

Of the 11,000 Megawatts, 2,000 were due to plants being offline for regularly scheduled maintenance. An easily overcomeable loss.

The other 9,000? The plants that would have produced this energy had been shut down by the government... because they'd produced their quota of carbon dioxide for the year.

CA COULD have 'bought' power from other states' systems, thus allowing the electricity to reach market value, rather than driving the prices up... except the govt. regulations wouldn't let them.

It's a manufactured shortage and a false crisis.
They lie.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

As a California resident, I'm of course irked at all this.

There haven't been rolling blackouts yet during the winter... that was only the summer.

This is directly caused by the simple and obvious fact that, besides the fact that we can't bring in more power from outside, there has not been a new power plant built in California in nearly ten years.

This is particularly an issue here in Moron Hell. Calpine, who already has a cogenerator in Gilroy (part garlic/onion/whatever processing plant, part power generator), wants to put another faccility in south San Jose, around where I used to live. People are pushing for it, as it would help a good deal locally to help ease power concerns, but there's the whole issue about it being less than a mile from suburbia... the locals there don't want to see it there (nor do they want Cisco to move into a building that would be effectivley accross the street, despite that it's in the same green belt that is preventing Moron Hell from putting in the desperately needed second high school...).

Anyway.

This whole thing sucks. I'm moving to Canada.

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"Uh, Cody, what has the Mullah of Cappistan been smoking?"
"MILKSHAKES. I HAVE BEEN SMOKING MILKSHAKES!"

[This message has been edited by Charles Capps (edited January 05, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

It also may have something to do with the fact that there hasn't been a new power plant built in CA since it's population was half what it is now.

*edit*

Darnit, Capps, you posted while I was typing! Stop that!

*/edit*

I wonder if any of these scheduled brownouts take place in Beverly Hills...

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"Still one thing more fellow-citizens--A wise and frugal Government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government..."
-Thomas Jefferson

[This message has been edited by Omega (edited January 05, 2001).]

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

http://www.latimes.com/business/reports/power/

In case you want to read about the problem.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Fabrux (Member # 71) on :

Hehe... I bet Los Angeles has a population greater than the entirety of southern New Brunswick, and we have 4 power plants for the area! One nuclear power plant, two fossil fuel plants, and a hydro dam.

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"What happens on the edges of infinity, the never-never land of mathematics?"
-Miss Hodgin

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

And I bet southern New Brunswick is selling copious amounts of that power and making a bundle in the process.

Much like the deregulated power in California being purchased by the highest bidder. That could never drive prices up. Nooo, not that. It's certainly not the only factor on the table, but it is one.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Mikey T (Member # 144) on :

As a Los Angeles County resident, I'm somewhat confused. From what I understand, the DWP (Department of Water and Power) provides the power to the county, not Edison. And yet, DWP is being ordered to cut back power consumption along with the rest of the state. Does that mean LA has an independent power grid?

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"Oh for fuck's sake, stop your moaning,
If you fancy a threesome at this time of night, you can't get start getting choosey about which particular three!
-Queer As Folk, UK

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

The Los Angeles Department of Water and Power (DWP) is not part of the deregulated state energy market and is owned and operated by the city of Los Angeles. It still owns it's own power plants and is not suffering the same shortages as the other energy companies (SoCal Edison and PG&E).

In fact, the DWP is selling some of it's power on the statewide market and was exempt from the energy commission ruling last week granting the other energy companies a rate hike.

I think that the DWP is just encouraging it's users to think about power wisely.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

If the plants had not been subject to the (inflated) CO2 regulation, they would have stayed open, the demand for power would have been much lower, thusly the price, deregulated or not, would have been far lower as well.

+supply & steady demand = lower prices.
steady supply and steady demand = steady prices.
-supply & steady demand = higher prices.
-supply & +demand = MUCH higher prices = the situation in CA

Analogy follows:

When the government says "We're not going to regulate how much you sell corn for, but we ARE going to limit the supply you have," of COURSE corn prices go up.
BUT...
When you can grow AND sell as much corn as you can, corn ends up finding its 'fair market price' because of the higher supply.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Did you read any off the stuff I linked to?

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Saltah'na (Member # 33) on :

So you're moving to Canada Charles?

Come to Toronto!!! We'll hook up together and visit some stri..... ahhh.... err.... we'll go shopping at the Eaton Centre together!

I hear that this is all part of an excuse to say that the CO2 limits imposed by the government are hampering the ability to generate electricity. They simply want the government to repeal those limits so they can use whatever coal fired/natural gas/wood burning generators to the own zeal.

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"My Name is Elmer Fudd, Millionaire. I own a Mansion and a Yacht."
Psychiatrist: "Again."

[This message has been edited by Tahna Los (edited January 08, 2001).]

Posted by Coddman (Member # 10) on :

Pah, Ontario
Charles, move to a real province...B.C. *L* (Vancouver hopefully, but the Americans I've seen who come to B.C. have an odd fascination with Victoria instead)

[This message has been edited by Coddman (edited January 08, 2001).]

Posted by PsyLiam (Member # 73) on :

Or move to England. Where we can great you, dine with you, tie you down, and shave that bloody beard off. Sheesh.

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"And Mojo was hurt and I would have kissed his little boo boo but then I realized he was a BAD monkey so I KICKED HIM IN HIS FACE!"
-Bubbles

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

....and any razor/hatchet cuts he gets can be treated for free.......

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Jay: I read it. Not exactly balanced coverage, but hey, it WAS the Governor's speech.

I liked how he couched heavy-handed Marxism (the threat to 'nationalize' the power companies) as concern for the residents. Cute, that was.

Again, No mention of the fact that a large part of the shortage was caused by CA's own CO2 emission regulations forcing the shutdown of several plants, but you'll never hear that from a Demoncratic governor.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

I rather thought the whole of the coverage was pretty well balanced.

I trust you read more than the Republican, er, Democratic Governor Davis' speech section. I'm not wholly sure that your theory...because much of what you write in earlier parts ot the thread are theory about deregulation and now what is practically happening in California...hold true in the energy market of California.

quote:
What went wrong?
Conceived in the depths of an economic recession and just before the Internet boom, deregulation was based on the assumption that electricity demand would grow gradually.
Instead, it raced ahead as much as three times more quickly than predicted, straining the supply. In fact, although California's per capita energy use is the third-lowest in the nation, California also generates less power per resident than any other state.
Out-of-state plants make up the deficit, but electricity supplies became so tight last year that the Bay Area got hit with a blackout and state authorities declared emergency shortages on 22 days--including the first ever Stage 3 emergency, which could have resulted in rationing.
Other reasons cited for the electricity crunch are the state's older, less efficient power plants (55% are more than 30 years old); citizens' unwillingness to tolerate new power plants close to their homes; slackening of electricity conservation efforts; an overtaxed transmission grid; increased power demand in Western states exporting electricity to California; and, yes, inadequate state regulation of wholesalers.

I don't think that how much you want to cajole your argument, deregulation has to be part of the problem.

California regulates carbon dioxide emissions for cars and the auto industry has complied by engineering cars that fit the standards...made a shitload of cash and moved on. Same with gasoline. Why then, should the now private energy companies who want to reap the rewards of doing business in Califonia not do the same?

As an aside, I'd like to know (and not as some sort of challenge that you don't know what your talking about thing) where you are getting the info on the CO2.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

[This message has been edited by Jay (edited January 10, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I'll see if I can re-find the source.
But perhaps the Californians among us would have heard about that?

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Well, the time has come.

Three plants went down last night because of the storm.

Today we're on a level three power emergency.

The rotating blackouts just started with block number 3... they're gonna do 20 blocks at a time, one hour each, for the next four hours.

I'm in block 39.

Yay.

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"Uh, Cody, what has the Mullah of Cappistan been smoking?"
"MILKSHAKES. I HAVE BEEN SMOKING MILKSHAKES!"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Sounds like fun.

I just hope the folks can stay civil out there during the blackouts - they're an ideal time for marauders and such. And we know how Angelinos love a good excuse to run amok... keep your (insert defensive weapon of choice here) handy.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

What is it with you and the guns?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier ... just as long as I'm the dictator." - George "Dubya" Bush, Dec 18, 2000

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 11, 2001).]

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

My weapon of choice is a bamboo stalk about 1 inch in diameter.... When you hit someone with this it makes a crack like a small pistol shot, and causes much pain...

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Did I say Gun, Jeff? No, I said 'defensive weapon of choice.' This could be a gun, sword, knife, baseball bat, chain, doberman, or spitwad hurler. I said that mainly because I know some people here wouldn't choose a gun, for any reason, but partly because I suspected someone would overreact, and I could then expose them to derision.

so BLEAH! :P

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Charles Capps (Member # 9) on :

Uhm, guys... the outages were gonna occur here in the Bay Area, not LA.

We Sillycon Valley residents can keep ourselves from rioting at the drop of a breaker.

Either way, we got some power pulled in from out of state which saved our ass from rotating power outs again.

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"Babies are squirmy, ugly, dirty, smelly, and noisy. They'd offend all five of my senses if I had any reason to lick one..."
-- TSN, 2001.01.11 23:27, PhoenixChat

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Did I say Gun, Jeff? No, I said 'defensive weapon of choice.' This could be a gun, sword, knife, baseball bat, chain, doberman, or spitwad hurler. I said that mainly because I know some people here wouldn't choose a gun, for any reason, but partly because I suspected someone would overreact, and I could then expose them to derision.

You said "defensive weapon of choice", which, as you have made very clear, in your case means a gun. Therefore, your defensive weapon of choice is a gun. Therefore, what is it with you and the guns?

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Actually, my defensive weapon of choice, given unlimited resources, would be a Vorlon planet-killer. NOBODY would screw with me then.

My defensive weapon of necessity (so long as the bad guys have them) is a 45 caliber semiauto pistol. Simply because it evens the playing field.

My PREFERRED weapon, actually, is a rather nice dagger that my first serious girlfriend gave to me long ago, hones to razor-sharp perfection and concealed upon my person. Good for slashing, puncturing, or hurling with great accuracy. (Well, good-to-very good accuracy, anyway)

I'm also rather fond of my claymore, my compound bow, and my double-bladed woodcutter's axe.

Mostly my firearms are for target shooting and killing bees and the occasional rabid animal. If I have to use one against a rabid human, I will do so reluctantly, but without hesitation.

But now we've changed the topic... again.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

I just spoke with a patron who inspects power plants for a living.

He says the shortage of new power plants is approaching EXTREME Danger.

Not only are we NOT building new plants, we're closing the old ones, and not even replacing what THEY generated, and we haven't developed any new solutions to the growing need for energy. Some quotes:

"There's talk about tearing up the hydro dams on the Columbia river, to help out the salmon, and I can under stand that, but WHERE are they going to come up with the power to replace what they'll lose?"

"They aren't building any new plants... the [environmentalists] won't let us."

"They've been tearing down the plants in New England, and Canada's exported us just about all the power they can."

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

We have a plant here in Port Huron that is only run every now and again. There are quite a few others in the area, so we can help out Detroit.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Now are you talking about California Fo2 or all over?

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

If this plant were to be fired up it could feed juice in to the national power grid, which could shift westward.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Jay: in the last, I was talking about all over.

This guy is the father of a little girl who comes into the library a lot, but it's usually with her mom because her dad travels all over the country inspecting power plants. He was only too happy to talk to me about it.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by jbStallion on :

I'm not following the energy crisis as closely as I should, but I can comment on some of the big stuff that's been going on here on Oregon and in Washington.

Washington's state government is playing with fire in my opinion. The governor ordered several industries to shut down because of the shortage of electricity. What they obviously did not take into account is how a few of the industries that were shut down were interdependent on one another. I know that Air Liquide, a manufacturer of liquid nitrogen among other things, has suffered many setbacks when either one or a few of their production plants were shut down, and the reduced supply has made prices for liquid nitrogen skyrocket throughout the northwest.

I can't say when this took place, or if it still is (haven't looked into it much for a few weeks) perhaps someone from Washington can comment in more detail, but here in Oregon the energy crisis has caused a lot of raw material costs to rise drastically, thus causing industrial profits to suffer, bringing on a temptation to raise prices on their products.

This issue needs to be addressed seriously. Not only is this an inconvienance for the northwest, but some action needs to be taken.

Anyways, I'll look into this more after class and make a follow-up post soon. I don't mind being corrected, and I enourage you to correct me if I'm indeed wrong about some of my facts. Nothing worse than being misinformed, or being the moron who spreads the misinformation.

Well, have a good one!

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quote:
For let me tell you, that the more the pleasures of the body fade away, the greater to me is the pleasure and charm of conversation.

Plato

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Just in case anybody was wondering, the deregulation in California is NOT an experiment, although it's being touted by the press as such.

CA is NOT alone in its deregulation. Among other states, Pennsylvania is deregulated, and we're doing just fine, thanks.

The difference? WE'VE built power plants to keep up with demand, and OUR population hasn't doubled in the last 10 years. Oh, and our governor isn't a Marxist.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

"Oh, and our governor isn't a Marxist"

Now you're just being ridiculous.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Yeah, the Gov of CA is a Leninist...

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Maoist maybe...

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

Ever with the finger on the pulse of the nation, Deer-In-The-Headlights-Elect said:

quote:
The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants.

Good, then it's all figured out.

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Oh, yes, sitting. The great leveler. From the mightiest Pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?
~C. Montgomery Burns

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Off topic here, I kinda found it amusing that Dubya actually felt he had to spell it out for everybody that, no, Ashcroft does not want to institute slavery ...

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Well, there goes that idea I heard going around that he was going to bring slavery back and have them pedal exorcise bikes with generators on them in CA.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Also off topic, but Jeff, do you realize that the reason he had to do that was because the Democrats had made it seem like Ashcroft DID want to reinstitute slavery? That party you support is so wonderfully honest.

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Disclaimer:
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- `OverTheEdge'

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Um. No they didn't, Omega.

At worst, they've portrayed him as a racist. A sentiment I don't disagree with, I for one would've preffered Ranicot or just about anyone else than Aschcroft. Oh, yeah, isn't Ashcroft the one who said he was going to leave public life when he lost to the dead guy? I saw his speech on CNN. Something about spending time with family. So much for that.

But the point is, Dubya actually felt that he had to say, "no, Ashcroft doesn't want to re-institute slavery" as if people actually had that idea. Hell, if anyone in power tried it (or even mentioned it being a good idea), we'd have a sudden (violent) change of leadership, IMHO.

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Edited to contain more information:

A racist wouldn't have voted in favor of 26 out of 28 blacks who appeared before his committee for judicial appointments.

This Week, with David Brinkley:

"He has signed a hate crimes bill. He put in a bill putting a five-year prison penalty on anyone who was convicted of a crime with a handgun. He has put a number of black jurists on the bench in Missouri. The first African-American in the history of Western Missouri went on the appeals court there, and he voted for 26 out of 28 of the African-American nominees to the bench in Washington."

As for his statements about leaving 'public life,' another politician I recall said the same thing once, Jeff. Of course, HIS name was George Washington. BEFORE he had been elected President.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 17, 2001).]

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

Which shows that they all have lied to the public since the beginning....

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking"

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

And George W. Bush also said he would fill his term as Governor before running for President. Yes, I know, First, we've heard it quite often. They say one thing, then they do another. Yet again clear evidence that they're all a bunch of liars ...

Anyway, Ashcroft is an extremist. No fuckin' way. You guys didn't get a mandate, you barely got in. You've got Powell and most of the others (except Chavez, but I understand she left of her own), but you ain't getting this Ashcroft guy without a fight. Looking at his track record at a senator, I have a hard time believing that he would support laws that he doesn't agree with, despite what he's been saying.

Ashcroft: NO!!!

(Oh, I want to clarify something: when I said they're all liars, I'm talking about all politicians here, so please don't get your knickers in a twist)

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

From what I've seen on the news, we ARE getting Ashcroft without a fight. Not much of one, anyway. They've got, what, ONE black judge they've managed to dig up, who doesn't like Ashcroft, as a witness? (And who's spend half his time on the stand so far defending HIS record?)

Of course, now that the US's premier Black Leftist Leader has put himself temporarily out of commission for his OWN ethical misdeeds (Thanks, Jesse, learn anything ELSE from Bill Clinton?), the opposition is withering away.

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I have a hard time believing that he would support laws that he doesn't agree with

There's a difference between supporting laws and enforcing them. Even you should know that.

Personally, I think you guys're so used to Janet Reno that the concept of an AG that actually enforces the law, regardless of his/her opinion or beliefs, is completely foreign to you.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Sorry, Omega, I mis-spoke.

When I said "support", I meant, how will the Justice Department support laws that Ashcroft does not agree with? In other words, yes, enforcing them. His track record in the senate and in Missouri seems to hint that "no" he won't enforce laws he doesn't agree with. I'm sorry, but I can't picture Ashcroft outside of an abortion clinic, armed, ready to protect that abortion clinic ...

I also wonder what Mr. Ashcroft would do if neither he nor Mr. Bush were in favor of a certain law ...

As for Jesse, I understand he broke the story himself and took full responsibility for his actions. Makes him a better man than Dubya who kept his mouth shut until the media broke the story. Hmmmmm. Yeah, shame on Jesse! It's not like Jesse could've killed someone by having sex with another woman or anything. Yeeesh.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

I also wonder what Mr. Ashcroft would do if neither he nor Mr. Bush were in favor of a certain law ...

Enforce it. Obviously. Again, you're so used to Janet Reno, who just ignores the laws that he and her boss don't like.

His track record in the senate and in Missouri seems to hint that "no" he won't enforce laws he doesn't agree with.

You base this on... what? What indication have you seen that he doesn't enforce laws he doesn't like?

As for Jesse, I understand he broke the story himself and took full responsibility for his actions.

After two years, and only after the story was about to be broken. He only took responsibility because he was about to be caught.

Makes him a better man than Dubya who kept his mouth shut until the media broke the story.

What story are you talking about?

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

I just read an article about the problems with the juice in CA, the guy said that they, the 13 utlities in the SF Bay Area weren't doing their "damn job."

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Presumably Drunken Dubya's DUI chargamahoojie.

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"...[They've] been so completely dumbed down by the media, by tabloid scumbags, by the Christian "right", by politicians in general, the school, parents who are dumber than their parents were, who are dumber than their parents were, and all of whom think that they can bring up a child just because they got down in bed and had a little sex...well, frankly, here is an audience that knows more and more about less and less as the years go by...We are talking about a constituency...that knows nothing. This is pandemic; terrifyingly, paralyzingly pandemic. They know absolutely nothing."
- Harlan Ellison, on the Media Consumer of today.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Yes, Mr. Bush's drunken driving charge, which he didn't admit to until after the media broke the story. Pretty much the same situation, except in Bush's case, he could've killed someone ...

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Bush:

Drove while intoxicated. Was pulled over for driving too slowly. Paid all fines immediately upon being asked. Incident expunged from record. Completely irrelevant to his public service, as he has freely admited to "youthful indescretions." He was simply never asked and given the opportunity to answer. Has changed his ways, and hasn't touched alcohol in nearly all of my lifetime.

Jackson:

Fathered a child in an extramarital affair. Was engaged in said affair while giving council to another man engaged in a similar affair. This would constitute hypocricy. He then proceeded to actively keep an event that reflects on his present character secret, while continuing to profess beliefs contrary to his private actions.

I fail to see anything but superficial similarities.

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Well, considering the story is going to break in the National Enquirer ... I mean, shit, if I saw "Jesse Jackson has Illegitimate Child" on the front page of the NE, I wouldn't believe it even if it showed up on the front page of The Washington Post

Sorry, Omega. The two are very much alike. You wanna know what I see? When it's a Republican politician, taking "responsibility" for something is a good thing. But when its anyone else, uh-oh, it's very bad and they're a bad person. This is proof positive that the Republican Party (or at the very least, you) is a hypocrite.

Otherwise, you would've said, "yes, Jesse J made a mistake, but he took responsibility for it, so that's all I'm going to say about it."

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 18, 2001).]

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Omega:

Luckily does not live the white house, or the Security Service would be authorized to use lethal force to remove him from crowd of Bush admirers, as public nudity, and chants of "Bush is God! I want your baby!" are generally frowned upon.

Really, though, the way you speak so highly of Drunken Dubya, you'd think he was the man who "showed you the meaning of being a man" or somesuch. He's just a measely politician, for Christs Sake. Like any other.

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

But, he is a Republican politician.....

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget

Posted by First of Two (Member # 16) on :

Typical grub mentality.

The DUI was 20-odd years ago. Even _I_ can forgive that, and you KNOW my feelings about drunk drivers. There's no evidence to suggest that it's happened SINCE.

This kid was born LAST YEAR. And the guy's a REVEREND, for Chrissake! He's supposed to be a goddamn MORAL LEADER for his community, a community which ALREADY has a severe problem with out-of-wedlock births, by his own group's admission!

You can't get any more hypocritical than THAT, without singing "I believe in Peace" while hacking somebody to death with a machete.

And don't forget that he's been paying this woman $10,000 a MONTH, and provided her with a nice house... just where's those funds come from? The 'non-profit' Rainbow Coalition, for whom he's an "unpaid" spokesman?

*Hear's Perot's "Giant xxxxing sound" but it's coming out of their coffers."

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"Ed Gruberman, you fail to grasp Ty Kwan Leap. Approach me, that you might see." -- The Master

[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited January 19, 2001).]

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

So if he'd had the child twenty years ago, it'd be okay in your book?

I know you don't believe in God, but isn't He the only person whose forgiveness counts to a Reverend (or for that matter, the Religious Right?) Anyway, that's why I'm finding Omega to be kinda hypocritical right here (unless Mr. Omega can give me proof that The Almighty has not forgiven Mr. Jackson?).

George W. Bush broke the law. Jackson didn't. Talk about a fuckin' double standard. When a white guy does it, it's perfectly okay. When it's a black guy up ... uh, oh, where's the noose? People wonder why Republicans only got 9% of the black vote ... (and considering the only answer given to that is that blacks are misled - read: ignorant - you've got more proof positive right in the answer) ...

Regardless, it's Kwaisi Mfume and the NAACP you need to worry 'bout.

Now, why don't I trust Mr. Ashcroft?

"It's said that we shouldn't legislate morality. Well, I disagree. I think all we should legislate is morality. We shouldn't legislate immorality." -- Ashcroft to Charisma Magazine, Dec. 99

So, whose definition of morality will Mr. Ashcroft legislate? His own, of course. No thanks.

More concerning, Ashcroft was a strong supporter of the Communications Decency Act. An unconstitutional law struck down as such by the Supreme Court.

Perhaps the librarians among us are aware of the "filtering" law recently passed required libraries and others to censure their computers? A law Ashcroft supported? And a law the ALA and the ACLU are challening in court?

"Without the cooperation of television networks, however, Congress has no choice but to give the FCC the authority to impose itself on the entertainment industry," Ashcroft said in a senate speech.

This guy seems to want to overturn the First Ammendment.

Reason enough not to confirm him, IMHO.

[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited January 19, 2001).]

Posted by Diane (Member # 53) on :

He also filed a lawsuit against a BOYCOTT by the National Organization for Women. Also a violation of the First Amendment.

Here's a list of his track record.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/stories/01/15/ashcroft.record/index.html

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"And smale foweles maken melodye,
That slepen al the nyght with open eye."
-Chaucer, Canterbury Tales

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

A) What difference does his opinion on the laws make? His job is to ENFORCE law, not make new ones.

B) Janet Reno DID impose her own wishes and beliefs, over the law, and you never seemed to complain. Why the difference?

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

What difference does his opinion on the laws make?

Well, quite obviously, he'll favor the ones he agrees with.

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Irrelevant. He will ENFORCE them all, regardless of favor. Is the concept of someone who enforces law, regardless of personal belief, THAT foreign to you?

Posted by Sol System (Member # 30) on :

Omega, you've failed to provide any evidence that he will actually do this.

Having said that, there are worse people Bush could have chosen. And Ashcroft apparently (according to Salon, no less!) has a good record when it comes to privacy issues. I'm not too worried, frankly. If we kept everyone with stupid ideas out of D.C., there wouldn't be a D.C.

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20th century, go to sleep.
--
R.E.M.
****
Read chapters one and two of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet"! Show no patience, tolerance, or restraint.

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

Hey, you're the ones claiming he won't enforce the law. I'm simply pointing out that there's no reason to believe that he won't. As for my belief that he will, that's just me. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Posted by Vacuum robot lady from Spaceballs (Member # 239) on :

Only if they're republican, christian "right", and they share the same values as you.

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"...screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!" - Omega.

Irony ensues.

Free <a href="http://www.somethingawful.com/jeffk"> Jeff K </a>

Posted by Omega (Member # 91) on :

And you know so much about my character as to make that determination? You make yet another baseless assertation.

If you were so inclined as to go back through every post I've ever made here, you'd find that I usually only attack liberal ideas, and the few liberal people I've attacked I've had darned good reasons. I've never attacked liberal people on the basis that they're liberal. I give people the benefit of the doubt, unless I have some reason not to.

Posted by Jay the Obscure (Member # 19) on :

I do so love diversity.

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"We're just going to have a lot of work. ... Redefining the role of the United States from enablers to keep the peace to enablers to keep the peace from peacekeepers is going to be an assignment."
~ George W. Bush, Deer-In-The-Headlights of the United States

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Gee, that's interesting to say Omega.

I seem to remember you on one occasion saying that by attacking your ideas, YOU were being attacked personally. Now it's the other way around, eh?

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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 6.83 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Forum Member Who Shall Be Nameless. 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001

Posted by Ritten (Member # 417) on :

I seem to remember asking about flaming ones opinion and ones character, several people, Omegao also, said that a persons opinions/beliefs being flamed isn't the same as the person getting flamed. I still think that flaming opinions is the same as flaming a person.

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"One's ethics are determined by what we do when no one is looking" Nugget

Posted by Malnurtured Snay (Member # 411) on :

Ah, well, nevermind then!