I may have to DO something about this.
http://news.excite.com/news/r/010328/09/entertainment-religion-burning-dc
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited March 29, 2001).]
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"Or maybe he was a real quack who got sick and tired of pissing people off, and decided to get a life and masterbate for the next 10 years."
- Me to Antagonist on Red Quacker, 03/08/01 20:15
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"Goverment exists to serve, not to lead. We do not exist by its volition, it exists by ours. Bear that in mind when you insult your neighbors for refusing to bow before it." J. Richmond
It's happened before. Mark Twain's been banned from schools before -- this is just the next "logical" step in that mentality.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
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"For people with resources, the right events happen. They may look like coincidences, but they arise out of necessity." --T�rk Hviid
No, it's downright FUCKING STUPID.
There will be bloody retribution for this. And yes, let me say for the record that I AM a Potter Fan.
You fundies have gone too far this time. I'm pissed. Really pissed.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
Its main character, purported to be a hero, arranges to have his only child tortured and killed to appease his own twisted sense of justice.
He frags people right and left just for slightly annoying him, but he never kills the one guy who is shown to be the book's primary villain. Doesn't even TRY.
It's got incitement to riot, assault, murder, mass murder, genocide, child murder, rape, incest, disembowelment and desecration of a corpse, and dozens of other horrific images. Committed by the HEROES of the story.
And people read this book to their KIDS!
This trash should be kept as far away from children as possible. It should be heaped into bins and set to the cleansing flame.
It's the Bible.
(Incidentally, Twain was banned by liberal do-gooders for its lack of 'political correctness.' because it contained the 'n-word.' But that's beside the point. ANY philosophy that leads to the banning of books is a BAD one.)
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
[This message has been edited by First of Two (edited March 29, 2001).]
quote:
Bender said the church had never held a book burning before but might try it again if doing so would "accomplish something positive toward expressing our love for God."Meanwhile, publicity has not hurt. "We got some people mad at us. But it's good to have publicity. It's good," he said.
This just doesn't sound right to me...
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Terry: "Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, ...."
Max: "And?"
Terry: "I forgot."
Max: "Come on, Clinton was the fun one, then came the boring one."
Terry: "They're all boring."
- Batman Beyond (aka: Batman of the Future)
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You know, you really should keep a personal log. Why bore others needlessly?
The Gigantic Collection of Star Trek Minutiae
quote:
banned by liberal do-gooders
Isn't this one of those blanket statements we were talking about in another thread? 
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
ALL, NONE, ALWAYS, NEVER. These are 'blanket' words. 'Some' 'generally' and 'usually' are not.
It is a fact that attempts were made to ban Twain, and why, and that the reasoning behind the ban attempts were consistent with 'political correctness' which is certainly NOT a conservative concept, but is recognized by all (in the US, at least) as a liberal mainstay.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
It would be nice to join their bonfire, acting like you're one of them, and then start throwing bibles and crosses into the flames. I would sooooo love to see the looks on their faces...
Except, don't throw real bibles in. That would be as bad as what they're doing. Just toss in things that look like bibles. Yeah, that would work...
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"Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. � Believe in nothing..."
-Tool, �nima
A local 'Michael Moore' type of guy, by the name of Don London, (I remember this, because it was similar to Dolph Lundgren), wrote into these Religious figureheads who were spearing the boycotting of this book, amongst other things. His letter, or the gist of it, was virtually what you had written above.
"To whom it may concern,
I am in dire need to report a book which I feel is corrupting our children, etc..."
And then he goes on to write a very similar description of this terrible book, as to First's review of the Bible.
Quoting scripture, and not actually revealing the title, which was indeed the Bible, He asked the Reverend to publicly condemn this book. The Reverend wrote back with a letter of support for this outstanding member of the Church.
Mr. London then asked the Reverend to come on his 'Weekly church show' (It wasn't, it was more or less 'The Awful Truth' but Canadianized, and on CityTV)and decry this book. The Reverend agreed to come on. During the interview, London revealed the true nature of the dastardly book, causing the flustered Reverend to leave the show. I've only seen the whole show once, and I'm not sure if it's ever been repeated.
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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
Just in case idiots like that ever slither in and stir up MY town.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
Somebody oughta arrest this guy (Bender) for illegal burning.
That's how a few states nailed some people for torching the US flag.
*"When they did this, they did it before all so it would provoke the question, 'What are you doing?"' said Bender, whose followers believe in faith healing and speaking in tongues.*
Good. I hope you all get cuts that get infected and FUCKING DIE, you brainstem.
*Bender said the church had never held a book burning before but might try it again if doing so would "accomplish something positive toward expressing our love for God."*
Of course. Everyone knows God loves a good wienie roast. Moron.
*Meanwhile, publicity has not hurt. "We got some people mad at us. But it's good to have publicity. It's good," he said.*
And it will be equally good if someone frags your ass all the way to hell.
I hate this country.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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"Or maybe he was a real quack who got sick and tired of pissing people off, and decided to get a life and masterbate for the next 10 years."
- Me to Antagonist on Red Quacker, 03/08/01 20:15
Choo-Choo
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"Instructed by history and reflection, Julian was persuaded that, if the diseases of the body may sometimes be cured by salutary violence, neither steel nor fire can eradicate the erroneous opinions of the mind."
-Edward Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of The Roman Empire.
But I tell ya, it's not easy being a nonreligious conservative. Too much of what they believe, especially when it comes to society. seems to be based on Biblical claptrap rather than reasoned arguments.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
QW:
You fundies have gone too far this time.
Who are you addressing? There be no fundies here, by your definition.
Rob:
he never kills the one guy who is shown to be the book's primary villain.
Revelation 20:10. Good enough for you?
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
At best, that's like a movie about a hostage situation, but by the time the cops get there and take out the terrorist, he's already killed all the hostages.
Or where a bad guy is going to nuke a city... but they don't catch him until after the bomb's gone off.
Not much of an ending.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
With the comments regarding the anger towards schools not taking bibles but taking Harry Potter stuff, perhaps we should find a school who takes bibles and not Harry Potter stuff, organize a campfire close to that area and burn the bibles instead.
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"Or maybe he was a real quack who got sick and tired of pissing people off, and decided to get a life and masterbate for the next 10 years."
- Me to Antagonist on Red Quacker, 03/08/01 20:15
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"Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. � Believe in nothing..."
-Tool, �nima
And, in this version of Conspiracy, Picard, Riker, and the Enterprise crew are already all dead because of the bugs.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
Your analogy is flawed. You neglect the fact that (yes, according to my beliefs, but that IS what we're arguing about) the things that happen to you DO NOT MATTER. Not how you die. Not if you die. Not why you die. Not when you die. All that matters is what side you're on when you die.
But I like your analogy, in its basic concept. Let me rewrite it to be more accurate.
God creates humanity in a giant field. In the middle of this field is a single skyscraper. A dark, twisted, ruined, hideous skyscraper. The building has been condemned, but there are still some people living in it, including the designer and builder. They're told that the building's coming down, but they refuse to leave, simply out of spite. They REALLY don't like God.
Anyway, God tells man, "Hey, see that building? That building's going to be destroyed, so don't go in there, 'cause you'll get lost, and the people in there will hurt you." Well, man didn't listen. We went into the condemned building, and sure enough, we got lost. Remember those loonies living there? They tried to trick anyone they found, saying that they'd found the way out, when they were really leading them deeper into the maze. They'd lie to them, saying that others were trying to hurt them. But above all, they weren't allowed to leave. They became hostages. Remember, they REALLY don't like God. They can't hurt Him directly, but they can hurt what He cares about. So we're all trapped in the building, away from God. And the building's going down.
Now we place God in the role of the negotiating cop. He has to save the kids inside. The building's coming down. The problem: He's too big. He can't fit inside. But He has one Son, one who could fit. Well, Son, being an obedient kid who wants to save the others, too, goes in. He knows this building, and He knows how to find the way out. The people holding them hostage realize that they must do something, or the game's up. But they can't hurt Son. He's heavily armed.
"But," they say, "He can't hurt the children." So they lie some more. They convince their hostages to kill the One coming to lead them out. They succeed, but not before He shows them the exit. Freedom for all who want it. Sadly, the hostages fell into three categories. There were those who wanted out, and left when given the chance. There were those that had actively joined the deceivers, but had themselves been deceived into not caring that the building would be destroyed. Then, the third group: those who refuse to acknowledge that they were captives, that they were lost. Those that blindly say, "Hey, there's nothing wrong with my life. Building? Building implies that there's something else. There's nothing outside these walls. This IS all of existance, and thus, why should I try to leave? In fact, the very concept of leaving is laughable."
Keep in mind that in this scenario, you still have to take into account that what happens to people doesn't REALLY matter. It's like a video game. You personally have some arbitrary time limit on how long you can play, and the game itself will only run for so long. You WILL stop playing eventually. The only question is where you're going to leave your character when you do.
The building's coming down. Do you want to be inside when it falls?
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited March 30, 2001).]
Actually, I think that those who burn books are only a few short steps away from burning the authors, too. But I'm curious as to what you can do about it. Plus, you know, devil's advocate, etc.
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Not even a god can deny that I have squared the circle of a static Earth and cubed the Earth sphere by rotating it once to a dynamic Time or Life Cube.
--
Gene Ray
****
Read three (three!) chapters of "Dirk Tungsten in...The Disappearing Planet" Or don't. You know, whatever.
But here's a start.
1: God made the condemned building. Why he made such a dark and twisted facade, or allowed it to fall into such disrepair without bringing it down, is never explained. Perhaps he's just another absentee landlord.
1a: he put the terrorists and the loonies in the building, too.
2: You are again assuming that the people in your analogy are reasoning beings, capable of telling whether they've been told the truth or not. As we've pointed out before, people with no concept of right/wrong & true/false will believe things in the order that they are told them. They won't know that what God told them is any more accurate than what the serpent told them.
"Anyway, God tells man, "Hey, see that building? That building's going to be destroyed, so don't go in there, 'cause you'll get lost, and the people in there will hurt you.""
3. Nevermind that this doesn't happen in the original version of the story, eh?
4. If he really cared about keeping the kiddies out, he could've put up a fence. That's what the plot critics would say.
5 And, of course, you've got an all-powerful hostage negotiator. He doesn't HAVE to let ANYBODY die. (Note to future writers.. an omnipotent character makes for a very poor protagonist.) He CHOOSES to sacrifice them... or to let them sacrifice themselves, which is essentially the same thing.
6. We never really know if the building comes down or not. It all happens offscreen.
That's a start. You'd never sell that picture to a studio. No sane person would buy it.
As for things that happen to you not mattering... SURE they do. If experiences and interventions didn't MATTER, you would never have had PAUL, now would you? MIRACLES are a concession to the fact that things here DO matter.
Some people turn to faith based on their life experiences. Some turn away based on different experiences. We humans are very, VERY prone to act on our experiences.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
No, Satan made the building.
1a: he put the terrorists and the loonies in the building, too.
No, they live there of their own accord.
2: You are again assuming that the people in your analogy are reasoning beings, capable of telling whether they've been told the truth or not.
And yet again, you're making the assumption that an adult with full reasoning skills, but missing a vital piece of knowledge, will behave in any way you can predict. You also can't predict how such a person would react to a direct communication from God.
"Anyway, God tells man, "Hey, see that building? That building's going to be destroyed, so don't go in there, 'cause you'll get lost, and the people in there will hurt you.""
3. Nevermind that this doesn't happen in the original version of the story, eh?
"And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
Genesis 2:16-17
4. If he really cared about keeping the kiddies out, he could've put up a fence.
God cares about our free will. If we're FORCED to love Him, what's the point? The whole idea is that we have a choice. You can choose to be in the building when it colapses. It'd be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but you can choose it.
5. And, of course, you've got an all-powerful hostage negotiator.
Omnipotence is frequently misconstrued as the ability to do literally anything. God can't defy logic ("Can God create a rock so big that He can't lift it?"), nor can he deny His basic nature. God CAN'T go into the building himself, because He can't fit: He can't, by His nature, be in the presence of sin.
He CHOOSES to sacrifice them... or to let them sacrifice themselves, which is essentially the same thing.
No, it's not. That's like saying that if we legalize drugs, we're responsible for the choices of the people on drugs. It's sillyness. Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions. You can't blame God when you make a choice, simply because He gave you the ability to choose. It's YOUR decision, and no one else's.
6. We never really know if the building comes down or not. It all happens offscreen.
"The Devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
Revelation 20:10. Sounds like it's demolished to me.
MIRACLES are a concession to the fact that things here DO matter.
Only insofar as they can help change the location where someone ends the game. Saul was SAVED because of the miracle, and he, having been saved, helped save tens of millions more. What happens to you in life doesn't matter, unless it affects your position with God when you die.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
But they didn't. So was this an error or a lie on God's part?
Of course, you don't go into the REAL reason God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, as the BIBLE relates. It wasn't for disobedience. It was out of FEAR. FEAR that they might then eat from the tree of life, and become as gods.
Genesis 3:22: "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever..."
(Of course, WHO God is speaking to when He says 'one of US' is also a matter for some debate, unless God talks to Himself in the third person.)
>"No, Satan made the building.'
God made Satan. God made Hell. God put whatever allowed Satan to turn evil INTO Satan in the first place. Perhaps He didn't build the building, but he trained and financed the architect.
>"No, they live there of their own accord."
You're saying that they can come back? All the ousted angels? Satan, even? News to theology circles... this would mean there's hope for redemption even in Hell... which would destroy any worrying about it.
>"you're making the assumption that an adult with full reasoning skills, but missing a vital piece of knowledge, will behave in any way you can predict."
First, you're assuming that Adam and Eve HAD full reasoning skills. I'm TELLING you that that's impossible. One cannot have full reasoning skills without the capacity for JUDGEMENT. Which one CANNOT have without the knowledge of 'good and evil' meaning true and false and right and wrong.
Second, God owed them that knowledge, for their own safety. If evil exists in the world, ignorance is equated with destruction. Satan existed. Why did God not bother to tell them about Him? Why didn't he say "Don't eat from the tree... and oh, yeah, don't listen to the snake."
>"God cares about our free will. If we're FORCED to love Him, what's the point? The whole idea is that we have a choice. You can choose to be in the building when it colapses. It'd be an incredibly stupid thing to do, but you can choose it."
God doesn't give a rat's ass about our free will. All that matters to him is that we choose him and spend the rest of eternity praising and singing to him. If we don't, we get a one-way trip to the eternal killing fields, with no chance of parole.
"You can choose to turn away... but you'll be so-rry..."
That is the SAME 'choice' given by the stalker, and the abusive boyfriend. "Choose me or DIE." Such a choice is no real choice. It's just that some of us have enough self-respect to know when our 'boyfriend' is being abusive.
Tell me, if God can't be in the presence of sin, how on Earth did He call Satan into His presence in JOB? HUH?
>"Revelation 20:10. Sounds like it's demolished to me."
That's a bit late in the series, like I said. Our protagonist should have had this problem wrapped up by the end of Book 1. You'll notice, also, that Revelation is actually set in a FUTURE book... one which I'm not at all sure will ever be published. Like I've said, I doubt the Author's sincerity. (That, and John the Revelator was probably on 'shrooms when he wrote it.)
>"What happens to you in life doesn't matter, unless it affects your position with God when you die."
Which it has, or will have, if I croak anytime soon, as the above demonstrates. And doubtless has to others at other times.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
And, regarding the Eden myth, I don't think the serpent was supposed to be Satan. Notice that, after Yahweh finds out when happens, he doesn't address the serpent as Satan, he just talks to it like it's the first snake. All that about its descendants crawling on their bellies and such... It was just a serpent that "tricked" (not a very good term, since the snake told the truth and Yahweh was the liar) Eve, so Yahweh punished snakes for all time.
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"Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. � Believe in nothing..."
-Tool, �nima
Adam and Eve died. When they ate of the tree, it became sure that they would. Simple enough.
Of course, you don't go into the REAL reason God cast Adam and Eve out of Eden, as the BIBLE relates. It wasn't for disobedience. It was out of FEAR.
No, it was out of disobedience. God said that they would die if they ate of the TOTKOGAE, presumably because they would no longer be able to be in God's presence. Eating of the Tree of Life would have negated that. Therefore, said eating needed to be prevented. Death was the required consequence. It was simply ensured by prevention of access.
WHO God is speaking to when He says 'one of US' is also a matter for some debate
Trinity. The angels. Does it matter? Just any being that has knowledge of good and evil. God's not all alone up there.
God made Satan.
Your parents made you. Does that mean that they would be responsible if you decided to go on a killing spree? A positivly... liberal viewpoint.
God made Hell.
To punish Satan, something you claim He never did.
God put whatever allowed Satan to turn evil INTO Satan in the first place.
Free will, you mean?
Perhaps He didn't build the building, but he trained and financed the architect.
The architect in question is self-taught. Note the crappiness of the construction.
You're saying that they can come back? All the ousted angels? Satan, even?
It would be an interesting theological question: if Satan repented, would God forgive him? However, there is what's described as an unforgivable sin ("Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit," however you wish to interpret that), and it's reasonable to assume that Satan et al. have committed it. Personally, I'd guess that it's really a point of no return. Once you cross this line, you won't WANT to be forgiven. Sheer, outright hatred of God, perhaps. So much that you'd rather suffer for eternity in Hell, just to spite him.
One cannot have full reasoning skills without the capacity for JUDGEMENT. Which one CANNOT have without the knowledge of 'good and evil' meaning true and false and right and wrong.
I would disagree. One can still judge whether something is within God's commands, so long as one is aware of them.
And I would also point out that perhaps "knowledge" does not refer to intellectual knowledge, but experience, as in "carnal knowledge". You can know what is wrong without KNOWING wrong.
Tell me, if God can't be in the presence of sin, how on Earth did He call Satan into His presence in JOB? HUH?
I have issues with Job being included in inspired scripture, actually. It is the only book in the Bible that has NOTHING to do with the storyline, and is referenced exactly once, in a reference that includes someone we've never heard of (Danel, not to be confused with Daniel). Then we have know idea who wrote it, or why God would have told them of the events in heaven. And of course, your objection, which has always bugged me.
Maybe I oughta ask someone more knowledgable. Darned Catholics, defining inspired scripture for us.
All that matters to him is that we choose him and spend the rest of eternity praising and singing to him. If we don't, we get a one-way trip to the eternal killing fields, with no chance of parole.
Look: you're in a condemned building. That building's existance poses a threat to others. The building will be destroyed. You have two choices: leave the building, or stay there and be killed when it colapses around your ears. Pick one.
"You can choose to turn away... but you'll be so-rry..."
I'd say it's more like the choice given Sara Conner in the Terminator movies by HER saviors. "Come with me if you want to live."
That's a bit late in the series, like I said. Our protagonist should have had this problem wrapped up by the end of Book 1.
The general idea is that God wants the maximum number of people to be saved. If he'd demolished the building at the end of Genesis, EVERYONE would go to Hell, because no one would have come to show them the way out. Everything is designed around the concept of the most possible peopole coming to know God, right down to the Tribulation in Revelation.
Tim:
I don't think the serpent was supposed to be Satan.
An interesting idea. I've thought of that myself. But then, how did it talk?
... It was just a serpent that "tricked" (not a very good term, since the snake told the truth and Yahweh was the liar)
Oh, please, I'd LOVE to know what you're talking about, here.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
quote:
Your parents made you. Does that mean that they would be responsible if you decided to go on a killing spree? A positivly... liberal viewpoint.
How cute. Omega's losing, so he decides to throw some mud around. Honestly, Omega, do you really think that the parents of a child who goes on a killing spree aren't at least partially responsible? What kind of a job were those parents doing if they raised a child capable of doing such a thing? The viewpoint you blast here is that you don't believe that parents, or friends, or society, plays a role in a person's development.
Of course, I don't know if you have a social life or not, but if not, that might explain why you have that viewpoint.
Then again, I guess God is a bit of a negligant parent ...
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
Omega's losing
No point yet made that has not been refuted through use of analogy. At least his points are coherant, though. It's a nice change.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Wake me when somebody makes a point.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
quote:
See, Rob, even JEFF agrees with your statement. There MUST be something wrong with it.
Rob and I usually tend to agree in the general of this matter, I think. Of course, the same statement can be refused to say, "See, Omega? Even ROB disagrees with your statement. There MUST be something wrong with it."
I also think most people recognize that "no person is an island", and that when a tragedy like someone committing a mass shooting, many people share at least a contribution of responsibility, however, there is a difference between that and actual responsibility for the deed itself.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
Does this make me sound bigoted? You goddamn right it does.
So i'm keeping quiet.
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
::runs away::
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
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"Beliefs are dangerous. Beliefs allow the mind to stop functioning. A non-functioning mind is clinically dead. � Believe in nothing..."
-Tool, �nima
I HATE people like Omega.
Well, too bad. We love you. Get used to it.
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
[This message has been edited by Omega (edited April 01, 2001).]
quote:
We love you
I told you he had multiple personality disorder ...
But in all seriousness, Omega, do you love me too? Sometimes I don't know, I mean, remember the time you thought I was from another planet? ::sniffle::
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
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"Omega is right."
-Jeff Karrde, March 18, 2001 08:47 PM
Not to mention the big loop-hole in your current gun argument that your oh-wonderous intelligence seems to be skipping over.
But, hey, at least I spell your name correctly.
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
[This message has been edited by JeffKardde (edited April 01, 2001).]
I'm not saying I agree with him, but Omega in this thread has been far better than Omega in the gun thread. Let him and First carry on, and post if you have a point. If you don't like the thread, don't post saying "I don't like the thread". Because it's weeny bit pointless.
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
Certainly doesn't sound like that from scripture.
ANYway, there was something that could have negated God's will, and that bothered Him. So to ensure that He got His way, he expelled people from Eden. Sounds like the guy who disowns his son, and later refuses to see his grandkids, because he doesn't like the kid's choice of wife. Thanks, dad! Pride is bad, even in deities.
How unfortunate for the serpent that he didn't think of that and get them to eat from the TOL first, since there was no prohibition against that. THEN God woulda been screwed.
>"Your parents made you. Does that mean that they would be responsible if you decided to go on a killing spree? A positivly... liberal viewpoint."
_I_ wouldn't think so. However, if one knows about a tragedy in advance, and is capable of stopping it, then one has a RESPONSIBILITY to others to do so. If my parents knew that I had gone round the bend and was planning to do something horrible, I would hope that they would have the courage to do whatever it took to stop me BEFORE I did any damage. If my brother told me he was going to take out a busload of schoolchildren with an Uzi, I'd feel obligated to stop him. Just because the bad guy has free will doesn't mean you shouldn't DO SOMETHING about him.
Stopping/preventing the crime by any and all means.
That's not liberal, it's conservative.
>"Look: you're in a condemned building. That building's existance poses a threat to others. The building will be destroyed. You have two choices: leave the building, or stay there and be killed when it collapses around your ears. Pick one."
_I_ wouldn't have been in the building in the FIRST place. Unfortunately, _I_ wasn't ALLOWED to make THAT choice. So much for 'free will.'
>"The general idea is that God wants the maximum number of people to be saved. If he'd demolished the building at the end of Genesis, EVERYONE would go to Hell, because no one would have come to show them the way out. Everything is designed around the concept of the most possible peopole coming to know God, right down to the Tribulation in Revelation."
In THAT case, the greatest number would have been saved, once again, if the building had been destroyed BEFORE the end of Genesis. If the Architect had been eliminated before he built it.
As for Job, I can give you an explanation for its inclusion... but it's a literary one, not a theological one.
You see, in the old days before the Bible was 'written down,' there were many more stories about God and the Devil and such. Many of them are now in the 'Apocrypha,' the Quabbala, etc. Most of them were very much like Kipling's 'just so' stories or Aesop's fables: means of telling why things were as they were. Most of them were patched together from stories borrowed from nearby tribes. Other stories like this include the dualism of Ahura Mazda and Ahriman in God and Satan, Noah's flood, and the use of "El" to mean the word "God," even though we know God as "YHWH" (El was the god of Northern Israel for some time, and many of the angels include El in their names)
JOB was an explanatory fable meant as an attempt to answer the most troublesome of theological questions: "Why do bad things happen to good people?" (Hence its inclusion in the Bible. The early church NEEDED an explanation of that desperately, especially in times overrun by philosophers. Having that explanation attracts followers.)
The problems of Job are manifold, though.
1st, God, being at that time the wrathful old codger of the OT, comes off an an arrogant jerk through most of it. "Where were you when I made the mountains and valleys?!??" What RELEVANCE does that have??
2nd, and more troubling for today's 'evil can't exist in God's presence' Christian, is the character of Satan as someone who is still permitted, even welcome, in God's sight. The reason for this is that the concept of Satan as prime evildoer did not come into existence until after the rise of Christianity. Satan in the OT meant 'adversary,' and he was seen as a tempter, and a pointer-out of man's foibles and fallibility, sort of a 'devil's advocate' if you will. More of a 'trickster angel' than a force of evil. You'll note that in Job Satan says he can get Job to curse God.. but NOT that he cold get him to join Satan. Back then, there was a difference.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
It's just like when the Nazis were burning the Bibles. To me (card-carrying atheist) the Bible is just another book, and burning it, while an utterly pathetic and useles gesture, isn't wrong in and of itself.
What angers me is that people are capable of such stupidity that burning books makes them feel that they are accomplishing something. I fart in their general direction.
As for the whole God-Satan-who-built-hell thing, well, the fact that you guys are actually arguing over that kind of stuff tells me I've probably got nothing to contribute.
Other than to say "It's a loada bollocks".
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"If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing."
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Don't kill me, I'm charming!
Same thing the Soviets did with anything that went against Socialism/Communism.
Or the Islamic Fundamentalists with anything that disturbed their ideas about the Koran and Allah.
etc.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
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"Well if it's gonna be that kind of a party, I'm putting my dick in the mashed potatoes!"
-Nimrod 16/4/2001
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
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"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
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The negotiations have failed. Shoot him!
~ C. Montgomery Burns
[This message has been edited by Jay (edited April 03, 2001).]
It WAS rthe Church that was majorly responsible for keeping records and some literature alive during the Dark Ages.
(Of course, they mostly confined that to Church-related stuff, and they torched the Library of Alexandria, and contributed to the plague years by killing cats (which would have killed the rats that carried the fleas that transmitted the plague that God built) , and resisted the spread of literacy and the translation of the Bible, etc, but we won't hold THAT against them... they hope.)
And they do keep the religious folk off the streets, where who knows what mischief they might get into otherwise, requiring as they do the fear of God to keep them in line. AND they keep them together so that the rest of us can identify them.
And it WAS the 'Great Awakening' in religious areas first, that eventually led to the concept of 'all men being created equal,' which led to the societal movement (albeit then largely stripped of its religiosity) that created the Revolutions in America and France.
So it's not ALL bad. As long as you keep it at a healthy distance.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
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Star Trek Gamma Quadrant
Average Rated 8.32 out of 10 Smileys by Fabrux (with seven eps posted)
***
"Oh, yes, screw logic, let's go for a theory with no evidence!"
-Omega 11:48am, Jan. 19th, 2001
Omega, I don't love you, in fact, I HATE you. I wouldn't walk across the street to piss on you if you was on fire. Hell, in fact, i'd bring some gasoline. So let that be a deep warning to you, should we ever cross paths that I am NOT someone whom you trifle with lightly.
So, save your so called "Christian" love for someone else. And do jam it up your jacksie, kay? (That one was from Mark, BTW)
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
We don't need radical atheism any more than we need christian fundamentalism, thanks.
People who keep hate in their throats will eventually choke on it.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
Beware. It's time for some good old fashioned Christian persectutin'!
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In this crazy world of lemons, baby...you're lemonade!
*tweety-bird voice*
He don't know me vewwy well, DO he?
Oh, pish tosh. I've had worse than that. How about a five-on-one fistfight? I've got a nice scar on my hand from where I punched one right in the teeth. And a couple of markes where they got me.
I had people, FAMILY, even, tell me I was going to hell, my gf who'd died was going to hell because she wasn't Christian, et cetera ad nauseum. I've got relatives who won't speak to me or visit my family because of what I've said about certain parts of their religion.
Now, I don't like many of these people. And I have, as my posts have shown, some serious disagreements with Judeo-Christian mythology and practices.
However, I also know that people must be judged as INDIVIDUALS, not groups. My maternal grandmother was a Methodist-type Christian, and was one of the kindest, most non-judgemental people I ever met. And I was her favorite grandchild. And I still miss her.
It's alright to hate individual people, once you've gotten to know them or experience their behavior. It's another thing entirely to hate groups of people you've never really met. In fact, that makes you into EXACTLY what you hate, if you do that.
So hate that minister. Hate 'im GOOD. Put a bumper sticker on his car that says "Cops SUCK" or "Free Mumia." But don't hate people you don't know. It's a waste of your energy.
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The government that seems the most unwise, oft goodness to the people best supplies. That which is meddling, touching everything, will work but ill, and disappointment bring. - The Tao Te Ching
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You know, when Comedy Central asked us to do a Thanksgiving episode, the first thought that went through my mind was, "Boy, I'd like to have sex with Jennifer Aniston."
-Trey Parker, co-creator of South Park
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"Tony Blair like me uses Colgate"
-George W. Bush on forging new Anglo-American ties